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[katoftw]

You be the judge:

 

 

You understand with photo like this, that to see the same detail in our own optics, we would have to put our eyes within 10cm of the hokis?  I'm not arguing the detail differences.  But the detail differences being viewed at say 30-40cm are not noticeable.

 

p.s. mods - we probably need this discussion to be placed into it own thread.  ta.

Edited December 5, 2015 by katoftw

[velotrain]

You understand with photo like this, that to see the same detail in our own optics, we would have to put our eyes within 10cm of the hokis?  I'm not arguing the detail differences.  But the detail differences being viewed at say 30-40cm are not noticeable.

 

Well - not having both models at hand, it's hard to make a definitive statement, but I'd like to think that I'd see the general difference a meter away - if not specific details.

I'd notice that one had a very textured outer body surface, while the other was smooth and more plastic-looking.  I could see that one had railings on the ladders, while the other one didn't.  I could tell that one had details and a non-slip walkway on the deck at the ends of the car, while the other is barren, flat and shiny.  The Tomix HO car is quite different, but I find the N scale one inaccurate and boring - although, I can appreciate the difficulty of producing that sort of detail in N scale.

 

I could simplify "visually complex" to interesting.

 

Moot point now, as they are sold out at HS.

 

 

> p.s. mods - we probably need this discussion to be placed into it own thread.  ta.

 

I had considered that when I originally posted, but then thought I was simply mentioning an opportunity in the latest HS News email.

[katoftw]

The textured matte look gives it more a weathered aged look.  The Tomix one while more shiney and smooth, just look like when new.  So they both have they pros and cons in this aspect.

 

I've thought about using some of the finer dust particles you find in the bottom of a ballast bag to age up the Hoki 800s and remove some of the shineiness.  Maybe some matte clear gloss over the top and white on the handrails.

 

>> p.s. mods - we probably need this discussion to be placed into it own thread.  ta.

>I had considered that when I originally posted, but then thought I was simply mentioning an opportunity in the latest HS News email.

 

Your originally post that you did was fine.  I think the discussion just became larger than expected.  You might have underestimated other freight lovers interest in Hoki wagons. haha

Edited December 5, 2015 by katoftw

[Kabutoni]

 

Top (HoKi 800) is for ballast, bottom (HoKi 10000) is for cement in this case. Apart from them being hoppers in a general sense and sharing the same type of bogie, they have a different functional design, different number of pockets for their load, different slope angles and so on. Of course it's up to the buyer, but IMHO it's a quite slippery slope.

[Das Steinkopf]

I have 3 cars fitted with number plates the original sets 2777.  It is a weird way they do it.  Tomix give you 3 number plates and a 2 pack of car.  So buy 2 packs and only assemble 3 cars.

 

So I have one spare unused car sitting around. I also have the number plate for 6 cars PP-800, but no extra cars (but the one mentioned) to use them on.

 

I'm gonna roll the dice on this set:- http://page3.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/c536691300

 

I wish you luck with that, I think I will be steering clear though as my other half wont be too impressed especially since I already have to pay back a small fortune into one of my savings accounts for current purchases not to mention the myriad of pre orders that I have as well. In the case of you winning and given there are only 9 number plates available for 10 wagons you may need to offload that excess wagon, I think you know who might like to take it off your hands .

[velotrain]

Top (HoKi 800) is for ballast, bottom (HoKi 10000) is for cement in this case. Apart from them being hoppers in a general sense and sharing the same type of bogie, they have a different functional design, different number of pockets for their load, different slope angles and so on. Of course it's up to the buyer, but IMHO it's a quite slippery slope.

 

Toni - perhaps you missed this:

 

> "This won't appeal to the purists"

 

 

> sharing the same type of bogie

 

Yes and no - one has a leaf spring, and the other coil

[Kabutoni]

If you're dragging my post out of context, that's fine with me. I'm however fine with all interpretations of the modelling hobby, hence I mentioned it's up to the buyer. It's after all the world you create yourself.

[velotrain]

If you're dragging my post out of context, that's fine with me. I'm however fine with all interpretations of the modelling hobby, hence I mentioned it's up to the buyer. It's after all the world you create yourself.

 

Then why bother mentioning it at all?

[Kabutoni]

Then why bother mentioning it at all?

 

Why bother bothering at all?

 

P.s. did anyone notice the design overhaul of the HS website? The Japanese version looks fresh, new and pretty good. Since I'm on a Japanese IP, I can't view the English language site. Is it the same there as well?

Edited December 6, 2015 by Toni Babelony

[velotrain]

Why bother bothering at all?

 

??????????

[IST]

P.s. did anyone notice the design overhaul of the HS website? The Japanese version looks fresh, new and pretty good. Since I'm on a Japanese IP, I can't view the English language site. Is it the same there as well?

 

Yes, the English site changed also. It was a little bit weird when I first saw it today (yesterday it was the old layout), I think I need some time to get used to it, but it looks more Japanese than the old one. :)

[cteno4]

Looks like just some skin changes and it's a step backwards, they lost some definition to the layout areas and they are in desperate need of a colorist! The nav text in orange on white is just wrong, super hard to read and silly to use the nav text color to try to define sections, just un nessary and makes the nav hard to read (anything outside black on white for text and readability starts going down, very proven fact) Section nav bar got klunkier as well.

 

Love it when someone in a company says the web site looks old, we need to change it and then someone does something like this. At least they did not just rearrange all the content on the site to make it new (I've had clients do this, totally scramble their content to the point nothing makes any sense as they were upset that the comet structure had not changed on their site!)

 

Sorry grumpy old guy here who hates it wee perfectly good things are tossed for something new that has less effort/skill/quality put into the new compared to what was there... Fine if you are going to improve.

 

Now get off my lawn!

 

Jeff

[katoftw]

Why the ranking stuff is where it is dumbfounds me.  More crap between the top of the pages and the stuff you really wanna see.

[velotrain]

OK - I guess there's logic . . . and then there's Toni.

[enodenlover]

I agree about the orange lettering, that was a mistake. At least the "exclude sold out items" function is finally working properly.

[cteno4]

I always love it when clients want to color code site sections! It's impossible to tell them it's so hard to come up with 6 or 7 compatible colors that can do all the needed things as well! It always ends up looking a mess.

 

Jeff

[Kabutoni]

OK - I guess there's logic . . . and then there's Toni.

 

I like orange. Don't you like orange? It's orange. Hmmm, orange    It defies logic. It defies the bother and purism. Then again, I don't have to use HS. There are better places nowadays anyway, plus it's largely a personal opinion. Something you can ignore.

 

Also, if something changes (especially in Japan), it means there was room for improvement over the previous installment. That's why people still use faxes at large here.

[cteno4]

Fine to do that in art, but in this case it has to be useful and easy to grok and use by the human and colored text just don't do that! May make something purty but don't make it readable!

 

I'm sensitive to this as we did a huge amount of literature research (older stuff with print) and HI testing with text on screen for readability in the early days of color computers in the early 90s. Big eye opener how readability, understanding, and retention plummeted with colored texts and backgrounds. So if you want it usable don't use colored text for your main reading text or lists.

 

Plus just getting good colors that work with each other and everything else is just hard, and few designers are actually good colorists!

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[Kabutoni]

Ah yes, the old days with the big and heavy CRT screens indeed had issues with colours. Especially with coloured text. Now with the high resolution screens most people use, black on white isn't the only way to go any more.

 

When I picked up digital design again a few years ago, this also struck me as odd, but you get used to it and learn to accept it .Maybe it's also a thing that comes with age or is a generation gap thing, but hobby in Japan is generally not seen as a thing for older people, so the major mail order websites tend to follow contemporary design trends. This means that actually no pure black (and sometimes not even pure white) is used any more, since this is actually too harsh on the eye on modern screens. If pure black text is used, this is usually for the non-important text and small prints.

 

The thing is that HS has chosen orange as the main colour for the model train section, meaning it's one of the 'worst' off of all sections (dolls got the pink treatment though). Personally, I have no issues reading the texts on HS.

[katoftw]

One mans logical is another mans crazy.

[Kabutoni]

One mans logical is another mans crazy.

I take that as a compliment.

[cteno4]

Toni,

 

The reduction in readability does not go away with higher resolution screens. The data started with print wayyyy back. In the testing we did it turned out that high res print was a bit more suseptable to colored text than the crt was actually. We were working uc Irvine and one neuro guy thought this may have been the brightness of the transmitted curt vs the reflected off printed page (tests were not normalized for total lumens, just set at usual crt brightness and room lighting).

 

But it's not something that you get use to, that was show with printed text way back. It's just worse and our brains won't evolve to do better with it for a few hundred thousand years. All we do is put up with it with a loss of readability, speed, comprehension, and accuracy.

 

It's like saying hey let's make commuter trains look more modern and get rid of those extra doors and just have one per car! Who cares if it makes it harder and slower at stops! Folks will get use to it its innovative!

 

Sorry it's just dumb to do things like this to look different when it's usability goes down. There is huge room for design and art in things like this without resorting to changing your content text color. Unfortunately, effort and talent is rarely put into those things and you get someone just turning the text orange and thinking they did some design. I know you know better on this I think you are just giving me a noogie!

 

It modern culture thing to care less about the content and more about things just looking different even if the newness is poorly done. Folks keep saying everyone is reading less and part of it just due to how the text is being presented visually. If it's hard for your brain to process it you will read less!

 

Jeff

[katoftw]

Thanks katoftw.  It looks like there might be 2 new and 6 built?  I know no Japanese and have no idea how Yahoo Japan works.

 

==>>  However - I only need three, so if anyone who understands these things wants to go after the 6 and split them if successful . . . . .

Which is why I linked you through a English language proxy buying service.

 

Yahoo works the same a eBay.

[Kabutoni]

Jeff, maybe you're right (more experience after all) and I'm just a bit bitter, since I like the new look of it.

 

The new design trends are indeed a hipster thing, and maybe they are indeed made to force the user to read less. The internet has become more picture oriented, rather than text. Maybe it's a strategic move to distract from the pricing and limited information (HS realising there might be better places?). We'll probably never know.

 

Still, I do maintain not having pure black as your main colour helps with being easy on the eye. It works, but maybe not with text-heavy sites like HS and so on.

 

We're at least lucky to have script evolved from gothic to serif and sans-serif... ^^

[mrp]

I don’t usually chime in on these religious discussions - but I have to say that for me this bright new orange text is nearly illegible.  I already sent them a polite email asking if they could maybe make the text a bit darker.

 

Maybe I’m just picky - I know I spend hours adjusting the text foreground (#F0F0A0) and background (#0A0A46) colours in my code editors to get it just right (and surprisingly close to the settings Silicon Graphics already perfected many many years ago).

 

Perhaps it’s web-site redesign season in Japan.  From Japan - which I used to use fairly often - also just updated (and totally wrecked) their design.  It used to be fast and clean, with everything you needed all visible on a single page.  Now it’s slow and colorful with huge amounts of white space and giant interface elements - and you have to scroll and click to find even the most basic info.  Arrrggghhh…