New rolling stock for Yamanote Line- 235 series

[marknewton]

Not sure why tourists would be consideration for whether or not to deploy 6 door cars...

 

They probably weren't. The OP has some rather strange ideas.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

About peripheral vision: it's a rather old debate and some german locomotives were built without side windows before ww2. 

 

So? All that tells me is that there were engineers or designers back then who didn't have a clue either. Many German locos of the same period and after had cabs with side windows, too. But you'll notice that those locos you think support your position had a vertical front windows and driving positions that were quite close to those windows, as well as cab doors that were effectively alongside the driving positions - the drivers would have had peripheral vision. What they didn't have was a driver sitting 6 feet behind a huge expanse of sloping glass, trying to see over another 6 foot of nose, and not having any vision to the sides.

 

 

The idea is that the driver should not care about trackside events, because if someone gets on the tracks that is not visible through the main windscreen, then it's already too late to brake. 

 

(Sigh!) Having peripheral vision from the cab has little to do with seeing trespassers or braking distances. Did you bother to read my previous comments, where I explained in some detail what the driver is looking for when driving, and why? Obviously not, or perhaps you didn't understand what I wrote. I don't wish to start another slanging match with you, but has it ever occurred to you that a person who drives trains for a living, and teaches others to drive trains for a living might just possibly know a little more about it than you do? 

 

 

On the other hand, cameras are good, the vancouver skytrain has a remote manual mode where the driver sits in the control center and sees everything through video feeds. Depot movements are also done this way.

 

Again, so what? The Vancouver Skytrain runs on a private ROW, mostly on a viaduct, and has a maximum permitted speed of what, 80kph? It's a glorified amusement park ride, not a railway. And again you're trying to cloud the waters by introducing an irelevant example into the discussion when someone points out your error.

 

Out of interest, what do you do for a living?

 

 

Mark.

[kvp]

Out of interest, what do you do for a living?

I'm one of the engineers who design the trains you have to drive. Otherwise electrical engineer with a specialisation of industrial automation and embedded systems. Currently working as a network hardware/software design engineer, but i have a part time job as a systems consultant for an emu manufacturer who happen to have a factory in Hungary.

 

Ps: i do understand your concerns but ideally a modern driver just sits in the cab and follows on screen orders and info (like door and platform sensors, in cab signal displays). Visibility of the actual tracks is only required for proceed on sight operation, when everything else is broken.

[trainsforever8]

I was very surprised when I found out that Yamanote line was getting new rolling stock! It made me feel bad because I've always wanted to ride the E231-500 series ever since I was a kid haha but then I found out that they are getting a second life on the Chuo Sobu line which is better than nothing I guess. As for the new design, I quite like it, but I don't like how the green stripe, which has become a popular icon to identify the line, has been removed. I know that they made the door green instead because the line is getting platform doors, so we wont really see the stripe anymore but I believe they should've had keept it above the door at least, because then the doors will open, we wont really recognize that the doors are green. Another comment about the train, I thing that if it's going ligthly with the livery on the side of the train, they should make the car body white instead of the color of stainless steel (correct me if it isn't stainless steel). I'm also wondering how the engine will sound, It's something that I commonly as myself when a new train is announced lol

[railsquid]

The nickname of 6 door cars were cattle cars. This doesn't sound good for marketing reasons. The new sets will have one bench removed from every car end as reserved wheelchair space. The result is that they will have the same amount of seating as the old sets with both cattle cars in folded up position, but it won't be as noticable. Also the cars don't have to carry the extra seats and no crew is required to lock/unlock them.

 

The current E231 sets already have the wheelchair space.

 

Not sure how the old 6-door car seats were placed into raised position, but at 10am an announcement would be made that customers were now free to pull the seats down if they wished. I think there was some kind of locking mechanism involved which prevented them from being lowered before 10am.

[railsquid]

The only 6-door E231s outside of the Yamanote line are the Chūō-Sōbu line trains. Come to think of that, aren't the E231s on the Chūō-Sōbu line the only JR East trains left with 6-doors? The only one operating 6-door trains at large must then be Tōkyū with their Den'entoshi Line 5000 Series (usually 3 cars per train).

 

If we're counting "2 more doors per side than normal", there are the 5-door cars on the Hibiya line, though I doubt they'll last long.

[ToniBabelony]

If we're counting "2 more doors per side than normal", there are the 5-door cars on the Hibiya line, though I doubt they'll last long.

 

Well, these are actually 18m cars and are operated by both Tokyo Metro on the 03 Series and Tōbu on the 20050 Types. Both have trains with two cars at both ends with 5-doors . 6-doors wouldn't technically fit on these trains. There is also the Keihan 5000 with full 5-doors on its 7-car formation, but that again is a 19m car train and not a 20m car train as the Tōkyū 5000 and all JR East EMU.

[railsquid]

The current E231 sets already have the wheelchair space.

 

I tell a lie, or at least a half-truth (having just been on the Yamanote): the wheelchair spaces must only be in the two newer cars.

[kvp]

 

 I know that they made the door green instead because the line is getting platform doors, so we wont really see the stripe anymore but I believe they should've had keept it above the door at least, because then the doors will open, we wont really recognize that the doors are green. Another comment about the train, I thing that if it's going ligthly with the livery on the side of the train, they should make the car body white instead of the color of stainless steel (correct me if it isn't stainless steel). I'm also wondering how the engine will sound, It's something that I commonly as myself when a new train is announced lol

Afaik they did place a small green band above the doors. Otherwise they will be stainless steel, because it has a few nice features, mainly that it doesn't need paint which could get damaged or faded over time and it's easy to mount full wrap ads on them (and you can take them off without pulling any paint off).

 

Engine sound is a good question, but considering the new cars will get an improved version of the same traction system that is in the e233 series, they should pretty much sound the same. They will have separate motor drivers for each motor cars instead of married pairs, so if they don't synchronise them there might be some nice interference and the new air compressors will have a different sound too. In theory new trains should be more quiet than their predecessors, but in reality this is not always the case.

[railsquid]

Well, these are actually 18m cars and are operated by both Tokyo Metro on the 03 Series and Tōbu on the 20050 Types. Both have trains with two cars at both ends with 5-doors . 6-doors wouldn't technically fit on these trains. There is also the Keihan 5000 with full 5-doors on its 7-car formation, but that again is a 19m car train and not a 20m car train as the Tōkyū 5000 and all JR East EMU.

 

I know they're not 6-doors, just pointing out the existence of other "high density door" stock.

[railsquid]

I was very surprised when I found out that Yamanote line was getting new rolling stock! It made me feel bad because I've always wanted to ride the E231-500 series ever since I was a kid haha but then I found out that they are getting a second life on the Chuo Sobu line which is better than nothing I guess.

 

For the record, as I read about it in a couple of train magazines today, one former Yamanote-line E231-500 is, as of the end of October, now running on the Sobu line with yellow stripes; car 10 was removed to become part of the new prototype. Seat coverings are still in the old Yamanote colour. Some photos here.

 

As for the new design, I quite like it, but I don't like how the green stripe, which has become a popular icon to identify the line, has been removed. I know that they made the door green instead because the line is getting platform doors, so we wont really see the stripe anymore but I believe they should've had keept it above the door at least, because then the doors will open, we wont really recognize that the doors are green

 

 

Interesting point about the platform doors, never occurred to me before. However the current livery has two stripes, the one below the roof is certainly visible even with platform doors.

[ToniBabelony]

I know they're not 6-doors, just pointing out the existence of other "high density door" stock.

 

 

Extreme rush hour train.

[trainsforever8]

the new air compressors will have a different sound too.

I like the sound of the air compressors of the majority of Japanese trains, our 2 current metro train models in Montreal have very similar sounds. But I'm curious about how the new compressor will sound, is there any other Japanese train that has the new type of compressor that the E235系 will have? Or any other train? I'm trying to find a Youtube video to see if I can hear it.

[bikkuri bahn]

FWIW, the air compressors (screw type) on the E233 series are Knorr-Bremse, model MH3130-C1600S1.  Knorr-Bremse compressors have been fitted from the E231 series onwards. The E235 will surely get something similar.

[trainsforever8]

I see, because it says that the E235系 will use oil free compressors, I was wondering how different the sound will be due to that.

[marknewton]

The multiple-unit trains I run have Knorr screw compressors. When they're operating all you hear is a medium pitched whirring - they're remarkably quiet.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[marknewton]

I'm one of the engineers who design the trains you have to drive. Otherwise electrical engineer with a specialisation of industrial automation and embedded systems. Currently working as a network hardware/software design engineer, but i have a part time job as a systems consultant for an emu manufacturer who happen to have a factory in Hungary.

Ps: i do understand your concerns but ideally a modern driver just sits in the cab and follows on screen orders and info (like door and platform sensors, in cab signal displays). Visibility of the actual tracks is only required for proceed on sight operation, when everything else is broken.

Well that explains a lot. What's that old saying, "To a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail." ?

 

Seriously though, I don't think you do understand my concerns. I agree, an ideal railway would be on an elevated private ROW with platform screens, cab signals and all the other mod cons, with fixed sets that never get divided, amalgamated or have to shunt. But for most of us, that's never going to be the railway we work on, particularly If we run loco-hauled trains. So I think it best if in future we agree to disagree.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[trainsforever8]

Hey guys, does anyone have news about the E235系? I was thinking we should start seeing pictures or videos of testing soon since spring in aproaching.

[bikkuri bahn]

Rumor is that at least one intermediate car (moha) has been constructed.  Don't expect any actual appearances until next month at least.

[miyakoji]

English wikipedia says a test set is to arrive in March.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E235_series

[Sacto1985]

Don't expect the appearance of the first real E235 trainset out of JR East's Niitsu assembly line or the J-TREC assembly line for at least another month.

 

I still think JR East has plans to put the E235 into Musashino Line service to replace the aging trainsets currently running in that service. 

[trainsforever8]

I wonder if they will also make E235 variants to use for rapid services similar to the E233-3000 series on the Shonan Shinjuku line or something, I don't know if they would make new train sets for the Ueno Tokyo line but it's interesting to think of these trains with 2 bilevel cars in the middle and how they will proceed with the design considering the fact that these trains have 2 colours. My guess would be that for example, on the 2 sliding doors, one would be green and one would be orange. I'm excited to see what they will do with these trains, will they perhaps also make variants that are gonna be used with trough services with the subway just like the E233-2000 ?

[miyakoji]

All interesting points.  Maybe we can look at what JRE has done with the E233 as a hint: several minor variants are now the basis of the fleet (or are the fleet) on a bunch of lines around Tokyo.  I had sort of pigeon-holed the E235 as being solely for the Yamanote Line, but I suppose this is not necessarily true.  What other Kanto-area equipment will need to be replaced over the next 5+/- years?

 

• Sacto has mentioned the Musashino Line's 205s and E209-500s; I didn't realize that there still 205s on this line.  Even 205-5000s with original fronts, if wikipedia is correct.  I think I agree that these are prime candidates
• The oldest E217s are 21 years old, and the oldest refurbs have about 7 years on them now.  Another good candidate?  Apparently all 745 of these built are still in service.
• nondescript rail vehicles with yellow stripe on Chuo-Sobu local
• Outlying lines: Kawagoe Line and Hachiko Line (205s and 209s), Sagami Line (unusual 205-500s)
• a few 209-500s in red livery left on the Keiyo Line

Just some thoughts...

[trainsforever8]

The E235 would look great with Keiyo line's magenta livery! And yes, I was mentioning these variants because even the E231 series have the same type of variants that I mentionned, but you could be right that the design of the E235 published by JR East could be one specifically for Yamanote line, after all, the E231-500 series that run on the line are the only ones with that front design, as I mentionned before, it could be that the fact that instead of a green stripe, the doors are green is because of the platform doors and that the only part of the train that you can see trough them when they are closed apart from the above side are the doors because they are partly made of glass, perhaps other lines will go back to the stripes or maybe another design like a line of dots, who knows!

[Sacto1985]

I do think JR East is looking at a variant of the E235 with a possibly different front design and maybe slightly different interiors specifically for the Musashino Line "loop service"--and will announce it later this year for deliveries starting in 2017 to replace all the 205's and 209's by 2020, the year of the Summer Olympics in Tokyo.