My project begins

[KenS]

The two strip idea should work for a DC layout.

 

But you can get a 4-pin bridge rectifier that's small enough to fit in a N-scale passenger car (6.5x8.5mm), rated for 50V@1A (more than enough) and will only drop the input voltage by 1.1V.  Using one means that the throttle needs to be higher before the lights come on, but it makes the LEDs direction-independent.

 

You can solder directly to the legs of the rectifier if you're brave (and careful), or use a 4-pin IC socket and solder to that.

 

These work really well with DCC, but aside from the throttle issue, they'll do the same thing for DC.

[keitaro]

thanks Kens

 

i posted a seperate topic in electrical just before you posted this i think or right at same time.

 

http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,5240.msg54223.html#new

 

thanks for the info

[The_Ghan]

Keitaro,

 

I wouldn't use those strips in a passenger car.  I'd use the purpose made thing:

 

Kato: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10038371

Tomix: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10066939

Microace: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10057412

 

In all cases, there are various products depending on whether you run DC or DCC, model of train etc.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[keitaro]

Any reason you say that?

 

Would be nice to have the extra 3 - 4 mm height inside the train so i dont have to chop the people so much to get them in

[Dani]

Hi,

 

If your car is compatible with an internal light kit, nothing will fit better than the specific lights from the builder (as Ghan wrote). But if your car is not compatible with the led lights kit from the builder (like my Kato 10-992 Mangattan liner) and your soldering skills are not good enough or you are too lazy (also like me  ) you can find already prepared led strips with the rectifier, resistance and wires already soldered and isolated. I reviewed this morning the specifications from the led strips I bought for my Mangattan Liner, and they are ready to use for both DC and DCC (I didn't know it until today, LOL).

 

I find this prepared led strips for 5€ each one in a web shop in Spain, but I suppose they are not the only ones who sells it. With that kit also comes some brass plates (is "brass plates" correct in English?  :BangHead: ) to feed from the wheels (if the car is not prepared) and an optional condenser to solder at the end of the strip. This makes a beautiful light effect dimming the lights when current varies (I didn't used in DCC that condenser, that's what they say in their web).

 

That's the product from the shop: http://zaratren.com/zaratren/36-tira-flexible-con-smds-10-cm-para-coches-kato-en-escala-n-color-blanco-calido.html

 

And that's the installation I did in my Kato http://clubncaldes.blogspot.com/2011/05/kato-10-922-mangattan-interior-lights.html

 

Cheers,

 

Dani.

[keitaro]

Hi Dani,

 

Thanks for the link. I don't mind soldering though since i already have 1 m of strips.

 

My main issue with the manufacturing ones is $55 aus for 6 lights or less than $50 for 30 3 led strips and the rectifiers needed for this.

 

If there is a really good reason not to be using these led strips like leds melting etc then of course i will stop but if it's going to come down to just the effort required to solder them and they are cross dcc and dc compatable then i will spend the extra time to solder them up and save my self $250 in the process. i have 31 cars i need to put LED's in and another 18 on preorder i will need to put led's in.

 

so we can see where saving $250 on leds = more trains 

[KenS]

The LED strips should work fine in a car.  Although they have 3 LEDs instead of the one in a Kato lighting strip (I'm not familiar with Tomix's design) they're surface-mount LEDs, so they use miniscule amounts of power (no heat to speak of).

 

The one benefit with the Kato strip is that the LED shines into the end of a plastic diffuser (also part of the kit) that fairly evenly lights the car.  With LED strips you're going to have all the lights in one place, and it's going to be three times as bright (more probably, as the LEDs are shining directly down), and even the Kato set is really brighter than necessary. And using more than one strip to spread the light would make it even brighter.

 

The one issue to be aware of is that LED strips are typically designed for 12V.  On DC, you're not likely to exceed that (although some DC power packs put out 22 or more volts at max throttle your train would be near supersonic at that setting).  DCC is another matter, and voltages of 18 and even 20+ are fairly common.  If you ever want to use these on DCC, you may want to add more resistance (add a resistor to either the plus or minus side of the power wire).  A resistor of 1 kOhm (1000 ohms) should make things safe on the worst voltage, but might make the lights a bit dim normally (which might be a good thing).

[Dani]

TIP FOR CHOOSING DCC DECODER FOR LIGHTING: I always take in consideration when buying decoders if they have a CV to set up the output intensity if I want to use them for lighting. In this way you don't need to change the resistance, just adjust the parameter in the CV configuration. It's also interesting if you can configure light effects like blinking and simulate that one of the cars has bad light contacts.

[Martijn Meerts]

One thing to remember about the intensity CV is that if you set it too low, your LED will start flickering noticeably.

 

Decoders usually control brightness of an LED by pulsating it on and off. The lower you set the brightness, the longer it will be off in between the on pulses. That's what's causing the flickering.

 

It's good to use for slight changes in brightness though.

[The_Ghan]

Hi Dani,

 

... My main issue with the manufacturing ones is $55 aus for 6 lights or less ...

 

 

Kato: I bought mine from ModelTrainStuff: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/KATO-N-Passenger-Car-Light-Kit-White-LED-6-P-p/kat-11210.htm ... AUD$27 for 6 cars - that's $4.50 per car, which seems very reasonable to me and less than half the price you've been quoted.  I bought 10 packs, enough for 60 cars.  Most of the time it takes around 5 minutes per car to fit.  You can do a full train in an hour or two.  They come with a single LED and a plastic strip prism.  The prism is divided into sections and, depending on what car you are fitting you just snap off the right number of segments.  Everything then fits nicely into place.  There is also an orange filter to give an incandescent look.

 

Keitaro, frankly I think the kits would be far less work.  You're going to have 2 or 3 point sources of light in each car, which will not necessarily light the cars as evenly or as realistically.  I've not used the Tomix or Microace kits, but would presume that they are similar.

 

That strip of LED you bought would be better served to light under bridges, elevated track, etc.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[The_Ghan]

Keitaro,

 

I forgot to emphasise the time issue ... I know you've got more time than me (I'm limited to around 6hrs per week ATM) but I'll bet you've got a lot of better things to do than scratch build lighting modules ... 

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[keitaro]

Dont suppose you can find micro ace or tomix ones that cheap ghan?

 

Only kato models i have are e233 e5 and the new subway on order plus the kiha 110 which i have already got those lights for and i was not really impressed with them. the opposite end is noticably darker than led side.

They flicker and come loose on occasions.

 

While the longer cars such as shinkansen the led stripis not suitable they actually look not too bad in other smaller length cars.

Also alot of my models are older models where perhaps they didnt have constant lighting perfectly through out like for example the tangara or any new train.

[keitaro]

I will post a pic of a kiha 91 with a strip in it or my pig nose express.

 

And you can make your opinion.

[KenS]

Only kato models i have are e233 e5 and the new subway on order plus the kiha 110 which i have already got those lights for and i was not really impressed with them. the opposite end is noticably darker than led side.

They flicker and come loose on occasions.

 

That's a common Kato problem.  It's not the lightboard that's the problem though, it's due to the way power is passed to the lightboard (i.e., the brass strips under the floor).  I've tried soldering the lightboard to the L-shped pickups, and it didn't help.  You need something like the ACCW, which could be used with the Kato board with a bit of work (I'm still working on building my own version of that, but it's one of those projects that doesn't get worked on often).

[keitaro]

Only kato models i have are e233 e5 and the new subway on order plus the kiha 110 which i have already got those lights for and i was not really impressed with them. the opposite end is noticably darker than led side.

They flicker and come loose on occasions.

 

That's a common Kato problem.  It's not the lightboard that's the problem though, it's due to the way power is passed to the lightboard (i.e., the brass strips under the floor).  I've tried soldering the lightboard to the L-shped pickups, and it didn't help.  You need something like the ACCW, which could be used with the Kato board with a bit of work (I'm still working on building my own version of that, but it's one of those projects that doesn't get worked on often).

 

yes i know thats the issue and why i don't see why people think they are better to use. The tomix ones actually work ok i have 2 of those for testing but the issue with them is they get brighter the more speed you apply. the kato ones were similar but lit up to proper brightness in a smaller increase in acceleration from the controller.

 

The Led strips are also good for this they require only 30 - 40 % to get as bright as i want them too. I think i will add a resistor on each to purposely make it no brighter than what i get at 40% i just need to work out what resistor that would be.

 

Attached is the pic i planned to make for the micro ace / tomix models. waiting on reply from the website selling the accw to find out the dimensions of the rectifier/capacitor to make sure it's not bulky and will make the inside look crap by blocking windows.

 

If it is i may just use the rectifier you linked previously and solder to a resistor then to the pin and springs.

 

let me know what you think.

[The_Ghan]

Keitaro,

 

Calculate away: http://www.hebeiltd.com.cn/?p=zz.led.resistor.calculator

 

Use the LED in Series option.  I'm guessing here, but if I think the voltage drop across a LED is around 2v and I'd probably only want to draw 10-20mA per car. I think the Kato ones draw around 5mA.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[keitaro]

thanks ghan the leds are approx 4.6 ma so roughly 13 ma per car for a 3 led strip.

 

I may or may not get that led pic up tonight i'll do the kiha 91 norikura since it's out already.

[keitaro]

sigh i did the ballast around the double crossover... not on the track but around it.

 

I was really carefuly but spent over an hour tring to work out why one side would not switch the whole way would get stack half way....

 

I took of the metal and the black clip that moves the track and cleaned still same issue i moved back and forth manually to clear out any loose ballast in there same issue.

 

vacumed the hole to suck dirt same issue still, eventually i got it by sticking in the thinest jewlers screw driver i could find. Thank god thats that switch done. I definately will not be doing the top of it ...................

 

6 switches to go 

[keitaro]

Did more ballast. doing in parts 5 - 10cm at a time.

 

Also i ended up lowering my bridge about 5mm on each side. makes a world of difference for running a 6 car ma model up the tunnels hill. i found ma models once pulling 6 cars had issuse where it would look jerky because it was slipping. This doesnt happen on my tomix model nor kato pulling 6 cars. ie E5, 100 series or my other emus.

 

I guess the MA ones need better grip for hills because they slip.

 

One nark i had was i did one side then the other and now one side is a whole 2mm lower than the other. This is noticable to me. one side has a rock below it prohibiting it from going lower.

 

Also i have marked the base ball field ready to place down grass

[The_Ghan]

keitaro,

 

What grade did you have?  My EMUs pull fine up a 3.5% grade, even around curves.  No problem with my MicroAce 9 car Azusa or Odakyu 3100.  Tomix: Odakyu 7000 and 0-7000 shinkansen.  Kato: E231-500 Yamanote 11-car and E531 Joban line 10-car all working fine.

 

Cheers

 

The_ghan

[keitaro]

To be honest i have not worked out the grade but i'D say at least 4%

[keitaro]

so here is a pic of my new kiha 58 very nice detail in the paint and text

 

i didn't take out of case as at work but you can see the detail through the pic of case.

[KenS]

That's a nice-looking KiHa.

[The_Ghan]

I agree with KenS on that one.  Damn fine choice keitaro!

 

Getting back to the grades .... I would never go above 4% unless I was only running short freighters or dedicated 2-car sets like the Hakone-Tozan.  4% is a pretty steep grade.  Even then, much more than 4 or 5% starts to look too unrealistic on the model.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[keitaro]

yeah that was a mistake on my part is there a calculator or something to calculate grades. Last i measured it was 7 cm ? maybe 6 cm

 

incline starts from a 140mm s, 2 x 317mm - 45 c, 140mm s.

 

I use the pillars for the single track via duct to hold the track atm and it seems i need to finely balance that as well.

 

next week i'm going to see if i can cut some foam up to get a smoother more even slope.