My project begins

[keitaro]

Not sure what to call my layout yet but it has begun.

 

I have assemble the table after a grueling 6 hours and laid the styrene.

 

Assembled the basic of the track to get a feel for it and while it was connected ran my trains haha.

 

They are happy to have a table of their own.

 

Would post pics but the table is blocking the pc and my iPhone can't upload pics.

 

Stay tuned as I will post soon

 

 

 

 

 

EDIT **** ok so i finished playing with my trains so heres the pics

 

because i have demo version i could not fit the pla into one file so everything is just as first pic except the parking area for trains

 

btw thats my kiha 110 with extra motor car. i'm impressed with how quiet it is and how smooth it runs i had it on only 10 and it started moving without jittering

[Hobby Dreamer]

Great start!!  Always fun to run the trains the first time..

 

Keep us informed

 

Cheers

Rick

[Bernard]

That actually went quickly and you're off to a great start.....now the fun begins!

[keitaro]

fun yes maybe 

 

no pictures tonight.

 

However i have started to make the first mountain i have created the slopes and places the foundation to hold the track up. i also have some foam cut to shape to make the L shape of the mountain.

 

I then tested the trains and ran into a few issues.

 

1. Thomas cannot go up grades of 1.5 - 2 % there abouts. Even at 1.5 % he has a bunch of trouble.

 

I tested and confirmed this by lowering the slope than calculating the grade.

 

2. My kiha 110 with 2 motor cars and 1 non motor car seems to love rubbing on points and the little door between cars comes of as a result of rubbing and derailing on points.

 

To over come this I have placed 72.5mm track infront of any points that has a slight slope or corner right before hitting the point which means it has made less space between the edge of my board and track.

Which was undesireable butIi can't figure out why it's happening. It has same clearance as all my other trains ...

 

Tommorow I will begin more of the tunnel i'm hoping to have tunnel and mountain done by 2 weeks from now.

 

Also the station is a bit tight I was thinking of sanding back the edge 2 or 3 mm so the trains don't rub

[Lawrence]

Does 'Thomas' have traction tyres fitted, if not might be worth getting a couple or they might just need a good clean.

 

Is it possible to move the station at all, if the trains are catching the platform it will certainly damage the train paintwork, but trying to sand down a platform edge and keep it level all the way along will be difficult, so consider moving it or the track leading to it.

 

Cant help with the 110 really, only thing I could suggest is checking the BTB on each axle to ensure you have the right clearances, I don't have the info but someone on here will no doubt know the right BTB measurements or you could compare them with another loco that passes through okay

[Bernard]

2% grade really isn't steep at all. Lawrence has a good suggestion about traction tires but if you can't find any a lot of modelers use "Bullfrog Snot" (great name for a product... :confused3:)

Here is some info about it: http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/Bullfrog-Snot-Traction-Tires-1oz-Jar-p/bfs-bfs.htm

 

As for the station being tight correct it now, just remember you might increase your roster in the future some larger trains will have trouble with the station.

[brill27mcb]

It's interesting that Thomas can't handle the grade. Tomix offers a pre-shaped foam base (#8018) to make a very small, twice-around, over-and-under layout specifically for Thomas. At this small size, the grades are not long and gradual to get up to the height of the overpass track -- only a loop of 280 mm radius curves!

 

Rich K.

[keitaro]

It's interesting that Thomas can't handle the grade. Tomix offers a pre-shaped foam base (#8018) to make a very small, twice-around, over-and-under layout specifically for Thomas. At this small size, the grades are not long and gradual to get up to the height of the overpass track -- only a loop of 280 mm radius curves!

 

Rich K.

 

Hmm I have Thomas going up 317-45 from 0cm to 5cm high over 2 pieces. He gets half way and his wheels start sliding. I took the cars of him Clarence and annabel but same issue. Wheels are spotless and he's brand new been used only 2 or 3 times.

 

Not sure how traction wheels will go on Thomas would look a little odd taking off his 3 blue wheels. Having said that maybe I should buy James or Percy so they can work together

[keitaro]

Hi,

 

I can't provide picture right now as at work but I did manage to narrow it down to the unmotored car on this car there is a skinny door connections between the 2 cars. Also the other cars have a fatter connection between cars on opposite side.

 

However the one with the skinny door connection seems to be catching some how I ran it at slowest speed and watched it.

 

I don't even notice it catch but randomly it pops of the track with the wheels beneath that. Also the thin door connection becomes loose as if it rubbed.

Strangest thing I ran it just the two motor cars and works fine. So it's the passenger car causing the issue.

[Lawrence]

Hi,

 

I can't provide picture right now as at work but I did manage to narrow it down to the unmotored car on this car there is a skinny door connections between the 2 cars. Also the other cars have a fatter connection between cars on opposite side.

 

However the one with the skinny door connection seems to be catching some how I ran it at slowest speed and watched it.

 

I don't even notice it catch but randomly it pops of the track with the wheels beneath that. Also the thin door connection becomes loose as if it rubbed.

Strangest thing I ran it just the two motor cars and works fine. So it's the passenger car causing the issue.

 

Would definitely check the BTB's on the passenger car if that's the case, with motorised units the axles tend to be more robust than that of a 'dummy'  so it could be that one of the axles is warped or a wheel has moved in.

 

Can I ask how long a 317-45 is? to climb 5cm you would really need a run, as a minimum, of 150cm, but longer if possible and definitely longer if on a curve.

 

Traction tyres don't involve changing the wheels, these are tiny little rubber bands that you fit on the drive wheels (not the pickup wheels) to give more grip, you may have to disconnect the drive rod to get them fitted.

 

Hope all this makes sense and helps a bit

[keitaro]

Hi,

 

I can't provide picture right now as at work but I did manage to narrow it down to the unmotored car on this car there is a skinny door connections between the 2 cars. Also the other cars have a fatter connection between cars on opposite side.

 

However the one with the skinny door connection seems to be catching some how I ran it at slowest speed and watched it.

 

I don't even notice it catch but randomly it pops of the track with the wheels beneath that. Also the thin door connection becomes loose as if it rubbed.

Strangest thing I ran it just the two motor cars and works fine. So it's the passenger car causing the issue.

 

Would definitely check the BTB's on the passenger car if that's the case, with motorised units the axles tend to be more robust than that of a 'dummy'  so it could be that one of the axles is warped or a wheel has moved in.

 

Can I ask how long a 317-45 is? to climb 5cm you would really need a run, as a minimum, of 150cm, but longer if possible and definitely longer if on a curve.

 

Traction tyres don't involve changing the wheels, these are tiny little rubber bands that you fit on the drive wheels (not the pickup wheels) to give more grip, you may have to disconnect the drive rod to get them fitted.

 

Hope all this makes sense and helps a bit

 

Hmm. The 317 is 317 mm I guess the slope involves 2 of these and a 140mm straight. I could try lengthen the incline but theres a point connecting to the 140 wold that have issues on slopes?

[CaptOblivious]

A section of 317-45 track is 45º of 317mm radius curve. So, the total circumferential length of one segment, as the train runs, is a shade under 249mm.

 

Keitaro, I'm looking at my キハ1110 right now. Mine is just the one-car motorized set (Kato part no. 6043). It has a diaphragm on one end only, and it's not in any way connected to the coupler, just the end of the car. The other end has only molded-on detail. So I won't be able to replicate your problem with my model, I don't think.

[keitaro]

Ok fair enough.

Yeah that part is getting pushed of which makes me think the coupler is flicking up and hitting it out of place.

 

when i get home i will try checking if there is any brass bits blocking it.

 

One thing i did notice is the coupler was quite hard to move so your pm sounds like it could be that issue.

[Lawrence]

Sorry I have never used the Kato track so have no idea what the codes meant.

 

Okay so 2 x 317 + 140 is 774 mm, or 77 cm, you are raising the track 5 cm in that distance giving a ratio of about 1:15, the minimum you should be aiming for is 1:30 and 1:40 on curved gradients.  If I understand correctly this is on a curve, if so to raise from ground level (0) to 5 cm you need a 2 meter [/u]run, if on the straight 150cm.

 

For big heavy locos or double headed trains you can get away with 1:25 but it doesn't look so great, but can still be done and hidden with scenics 

[keitaro]

Thing is though all other trains handle it with out an issue. just thomas. I think it may have something to do with how light he is. He feels as light or lighter than a standard un-motored passenger car. I guess he has less grip on track due to less weight pushing him down.

 

I know the slope has nothing to do with the 110 kiha though as he derailed 3 times at the double track crossover track. and it's completely flat.

 

Tonight i will test making the slope longer extending onto the 2 point switch at the bottom. I'll have to carve some foam to make it as smooth as possible

[Martijn Meerts]

Even with traction tires, Thomas might have problems getting up. Also, you'll end up with 2 less wheels for Thomas to get power from if you add traction tires. Actually, you're going to have to use the already mentioned bullfrog snot, because there's no groove in the wheels for the traction tire.

 

Most newer trains should be handle slopes of 4%, many of the new Kato sets mention 4% in the manual, including the 16 car sets. The recently re-released GS-4 morning daylight steam locomotive was actually designed to be able to pull the entire 18-car Morning Daylight up a 4% slope.

[keitaro]

my 5 car 10-473 e231 Suburban type 5 car bought in 2005 runs no problems up the hill. I really think it's the light weight not making traction on tracks enough because thomas is a really fast engine. runs faster than the kiha at 50% on the controller.

 

Update if i put him at 70% he kinda slides up the hill from the speed he has going on hahahaha however it's a very unrealistic speed and probably damaging him doing it all the time 

 

do you guys think adding a percy or james would get it up all right?i was going to buy one of them for my son to play with the trains

[KenS]

If there's space inside or underneath, consider adding weight to Thomas to improve its traction.  However, most weight sold for model trains is made from lead, which is really unsuitable for a train a child might play with.  There are alternatives, although they can be hard to find.  See this thread for some ideas.

[Lawrence]

my 5 car 10-473 e231 Suburban type 5 car bought in 2005 runs no problems up the hill. I really think it's the light weight not making traction on tracks enough because thomas is a really fast engine. runs faster than the kiha at 50% on the controller.

 

Update if i put him at 70% he kinda slides up the hill from the speed he has going on hahahaha however it's a very unrealistic speed and probably damaging him doing it all the time 

 

do you guys think adding a percy or james would get it up all right?i was going to buy one of them for my son to play with the trains

 

I think you may have fit the nail on the head there, the Thomas train is possibly more of a toy than a model and is possibly less accurate in terms of weight and gearing (you could go down the line of re gearing it if you wanted to).  Martijn makes a good point about the lack of grooves in the wheels too, that would mean having to make your own grooves, so trying to add a bit of weight might be your simplest solution, and if you can get it inside where your son cant reach it then the material shouldn't be an issue.

 

Double heading with Percy or James should also help and it would give you an excuse to buy them for yourself, sorry, I mean your son  :cheesy.

 

The reason I mentioned the gradient ratios that I did is that these seem to be what everyone uses as a modelling standard and being a bit old school :headbang: I was using ratios instead of %, so your current set up worked out about 1:15 which is roughly 6.5%  my understanding of the minimum gradient at 1:30 is around 3.3% and 1:40 (for curved gradients) about 2.5%.  Having said that, longer is better, apparently :laughing7:

[keitaro]

Strangest thing I lowered to 4.5cm now he runs fine even at a crawl... Funny how half a cm can make all the difference 

 

So I'll keep it at that. Making some progress today got the shape finished just need some chicken wire now. Will buy tommorow after work.

 

I left a large square hole on the back of mountain for access will build a little cover for that later.

 

So much tiny bits of foam everywhere I ever have bad dandruff or it's snowing in my pc room 

[Bernard]

 

 

 

So much tiny bits of foam everywhere I ever have bad dandruff or it's snowing in my pc room 

 

As I am carving away the foam I have a small hand held vacuum cleaner running....the carving & sanding method is messy but the end results are worth it.

[Lawrence]

Funny how half a cm can make all the difference 

 

That's what my wife says too 

[westfalen]

Strangest thing I lowered to 4.5cm now he runs fine even at a crawl... Funny how half a cm can make all the difference 

 

So I'll keep it at that. Making some progress today got the shape finished just need some chicken wire now. Will buy tommorow after work.

 

I left a large square hole on the back of mountain for access will build a little cover for that later.

 

So much tiny bits of foam everywhere I ever have bad dandruff or it's snowing in my pc room 

You've discovered a good reason for running a layout to death before getting stuck into the scenery, it's a lot easier to make any changes that only become apparent when you run trains.

[keitaro]

yes i ran it to death now with all trains i have even those i won't be running on it.

 

 

Now to sort out my station issue.

 

The issue is with the station i have it planted right infront of the of the double crossover so i can't make a larger gap between track.

 

I will have to do some filing of the edges, probably tale 1 mm of each side to make 2mm un wanted but i will have to as i have no where else to put the station to fit in 3 cars

[Lawrence]

Any chance you could post some pictures, it might help someone come up with a brilliant idea