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miyakoji

12-car formations, bi-level green cars on Chuo Line in 2023 (was 2020)

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railsquid
6 minutes ago, bill937ca said:

Double deck cars with single doors are Green Cars, i.e. first class at a premium fare.

 

The ones planned for the Chuo line will be wider than other lines (1300m vs 810mm) and the image on the linked page shows they're double doors.

 

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他路線のグリーン車で見られる片開きではなく両開きとされ、幅も810mmから1300mmとされます。

 

Presumably needed for egress at Shinjuku and Tokyo.

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railsquid

The other thing it mentions in the article is that they will be adding toilets in some normal cars from 2019, which makes sense as some Chuo line services have quite long runs. IIRC some of the commuter express (通勤快速) run for 30+ minutes without stopping.

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Sacto1985

With the E257's now being soon displaced from the Azusa service, maybe JR East figures it would be better transferring some of them to additional Chūō Liner service between Tokyo and Takao Stations on weekdays instead of modifying existing E233-0 trainsets?

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kvp
5 hours ago, Sacto1985 said:

With the E257's now being soon displaced from the Azusa service, maybe JR East figures it would be better transferring some of them to additional Chūō Liner service between Tokyo and Takao Stations on weekdays instead of modifying existing E233-0 trainsets?

Afaik those will be used for Odoriko services. The idea with the double deck cars is to boost the length and capacity of existing commuter trains without adding new scheduling slots into the jam packed rush hour timetable. These upgraded trains will carry 2 cars of long distance commuters, but otherwise still serve as standard commuter trains with longitudinal seating. Also these sets will still split towards the end of the lines and the shorter subsets will continue on to non upgraded destinations like the Ome line with its short platforms.

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Sacto1985

I also wonder on this possibility: with JR East delaying their deployment of long-length commuter trains with bi-level Green cars on the Chūō Rapid service to 2023, maybe there might be another reason for it: the first of the replacements for the E233系 model? Remember, original E233-0 models were assigned to the Chūō Rapid service in 2006, and by 2023, those trainsets could be as much as 17 years old.

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katoftw

The reason would be the Olympics, and other priorities take place of the Chuo Line green cars.

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Space Beaver

I notice platform extension work is now under way at Iidabashi. Bit of a lot of work for not much benefit since the rapid services only stop there very late at night after the Chuo-Sobu slow trains stop.

 

I wonder if there is actually some law against using a platform that is shorter than the train. Late at night it ought to be feasible for passengers in the last two cars of an overlong train to just walk through to a car which is alongside the platform.

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kvp
56 minutes ago, Space Beaver said:

I notice platform extension work is now under way at Iidabashi. Bit of a lot of work for not much benefit since the rapid services only stop there very late at night after the Chuo-Sobu slow trains stop.

I wonder if there is actually some law against using a platform that is shorter than the train. Late at night it ought to be feasible for passengers in the last two cars of an overlong train to just walk through to a car which is alongside the platform.

I think it's just cheaper to extend the platform than to implement selective door opening on all trainsets. The first is just some construction work, while the latter requires software updates on the door control systems, additional door controls in every cab, recertification of every set that runs on the line and retraining of the staff. Considering many Chuo line sets are composite and could run in many configurations, it would be a logistic nightmare to get it right and cost way more than just adding +40 meters of platform to a single station.

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railsquid

The current work at Iidabashi is to re-locate the platform , which is mainly on a comparatively sharp curve.

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railsquid
3 hours ago, Space Beaver said:

I notice platform extension work is now under way at Iidabashi. Bit of a lot of work for not much benefit since the rapid services only stop there very late at night after the Chuo-Sobu slow trains stop.

 

I wonder if there is actually some law against using a platform that is shorter than the train. Late at night it ought to be feasible for passengers in the last two cars of an overlong train to just walk through to a car which is alongside the platform.

 

Selective door opening certainly exists (can't recall where off the top of my head). However if you've ever travelled on the Chuo line late at night, particularly on a Friday or Saturday, "just walking through" is often not a feasible option.

 

2 hours ago, kvp said:

I think it's just cheaper to extend the platform than to implement selective door opening on all trainsets. The first is just some construction work, while the latter requires software updates on the door control systems, additional door controls in every cab, recertification of every set that runs on the line and retraining of the staff. Considering many Chuo line sets are composite and could run in many configurations, it would be a logistic nightmare to get it right and cost way more than just adding +40 meters of platform to a single station.

 

I agree with you there, however the question is whether JR is planning to extend the relevant Chuo-Sobu platforms at all; this article from Toyo Keizai notes on this page that JR announced it will be extending the platforms on 44 stations all the way to Ome, which is a number which excludes the currently served Chuo-Sobu platforms, and speculates whether JR will change the current early morning/late night service pattern ("現状では快速用のオレンジ帯車両が早朝深夜には緩行線で走っているが、12両化後にはこうした運用はなくなることが予想される。"). Which would presumably involve extending the services which previously terminated at Ocha-no-mizu through to Nakano.

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Space Beaver

Ahhh, sorry. Silly me.

 

Website I read said platform extension was for 12 car use but thats internet news for you.

 

And no, I've never been on the Chuo Line late at night because work lies in another direction and I've never ever been on a night out ever. Though what you said makes sense given how crowded the Saikyo is late at night on the way back from work.

 

Selective door opening problems: interesting. It is the opposite of the UK approach where selective opening seems pretty much a standard factory installed feature while adding a few metres of platform to the stations would probably be regarded as a massive and overambitious many year project.

Edited by Space Beaver

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kvp
48 minutes ago, Space Beaver said:

Selective door opening problems: interesting. It is the opposite of the UK approach where selective opening seems pretty much a standard factory installed feature while adding a few metres of platform to the stations would probably be regarded as a massive and overambitious many year project.

The trick is imho that JREast owns the track, the stations and the trains. They could optimize the costs while at the same time making life easier for the commuters. :)

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railsquid
41 minutes ago, Space Beaver said:

Ahhh, sorry. Silly me.

 

Website I read said platform extension was for 12 car use but thats internet news for you.

 

 

Which website?

 

Quote

And no, I've never been on the Chuo Line late at night because work lies in another direction and I've never ever been on a night out ever. Though what you said makes sense given how crowded the Saikyo is late at night on the way back from work.


In a slightly more carefree era I used to take the last Yamanote line train from Shibuya, which coincided with the last westbound Chuo line train at Shinjuku (departing from the Chuo-Sobu line platform) and it was often literally so full people couldn't get on.

 

Quote


Selective door opening problems: interesting. It is the opposite of the UK approach where selective opening seems pretty much a standard factory installed feature while adding a few metres of platform to the stations would probably be regarded as a massive and overambitious many year project.

 

 

Well it is an massive multi-year project in Japan too, look at the Odakyu line, which has been upgraded over about a quarter of a century from a largely ground-level double-track line to a raised quadruple-track one, including lengthening of the platforms on the stations between Yoyogi-Uehara and Shinjuku from 8 to 10 cars, and those really are pretty minor ones.

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bill937ca
3 hours ago, railsquid said:

 

Selective door opening certainly exists (can't recall where off the top of my head). However if you've ever travelled on the Chuo line late at night, particularly on a Friday or Saturday, "just walking through" is often not a feasible option.

 

 

One location was Tokyu Togoshi-kōen Station but this was where only 3 cars of a 5 car train could fit on the platforms because of a grade crossing. This situation was corrected as of February 24, 2013.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Togoshi-kōen_Station

 

 

 

Edited by bill937ca
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kvp
5 minutes ago, railsquid said:

Well it is an massive multi-year project in Japan too, look at the Odakyu line, which has been upgraded over about a quarter of a century from a largely ground-level double-track line to a raised quadruple-track one, including lengthening of the platforms on the stations between Yoyogi-Uehara and Shinjuku from 8 to 10 cars, and those really are pretty minor ones.

Imho the Odakyu line was special that it was hard to aquire the land to construct it and making a line elevated without fully closing certain sections for a few months is very hard and also slow.

 

It could be done very fast if there is enough political will. For example the Esztergom line in Hungary got upgraded from a single track steam era (built in 1893) diesel line with original low platforms to a mostly double track fully electrified suburban line with high platforms under about 3+2 years (double tracking and stations+electrification), while keeping the services running most of the time, including Suzuki factory car trains. The only thing that didn't fit into the project was to replace the Danube bridge with a new double track one. The line is now part of the Budapest suburban commuter network with greatly reduced travel time and a bit more stations to serve new suburban neighbourhoods.

 

I think the Yamanote line's new station and platform upgrades are also one of these must be done projects for the Tokyo olympics as the original Tokaido shinkansen was back in 1964. The Chuo line however seems not that overcrowded that it really needs the two new bilevel cars right now. I'm pretty sure that with time, they will be added to the trains along with the platform extensions.

 

6 minutes ago, railsquid said:

Oh yes, that one. Here's a full list:

The JREast Yokosuka line Taura station was actually featured in one of the Train Cruise episodes and the explained the operation in detail.

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railsquid

Back on topic, recently fencing has appeared at the ends of some Chuo Line platforms containing some sort of construction-related material, here at Kichijoji:

 

48391736827_2ef967d857_z.jpg

kichijoji-station-2019-07-25_01 by Rail Squid, on Flickr

 

and Nishi-Kokubunji:

 

48391595066_267fa9ec23_z.jpg

nishi-kokubunji-station-2019-07-25_01 by Rail Squid, on Flickr

 

Possibly the start of platform extension work; we shall see...

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railsquid

Well those turned out not to be related to platform extension work and have since disappeared.

 

However in the last few weeks, metal girder framework obviously destined to become a platform extension has appeared on the west side of Kunitachi station.

 

Also, the short siding to the west of Ogikubo station (used for maintenance vehicle storage/turnback) which was removed earlier in the year has returned a little further west, leaving plenty of space for a platform extension.

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bill937ca

Getting kind of late for a 2020 start on station extensions for 12-car formations. Are they only doing express stations?

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railsquid
2 hours ago, bill937ca said:

Getting kind of late for a 2020 start on station extensions for 12-car formations.

 

I should update the thread title.

 

Quote

 

Are they only doing express stations?

 

 

All 46 or whatever where 10 car trains currently stop.

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