Toni's Model Train Adventures

[kvp]

AFAIK there is no online source for any ATC system schematics. I think that if there was, if would already have been picked up by others and improved. I really should push the creator to release these things to the public...

That would be great! A description of what it does and where it's connected might also help in deciphering how it works...

[cteno4]

I wonder if it's the same atc circuit that the east penn traction guys adapted from someone in a big Japanese Ttrak group? Perhaps rich or rich can chirp in.

 

Jeff

[ToniBabelony]

Art Factory Jyōnanjima installed the winning modules at Hamamatsuchō station. Mine is on display on the far right of the exhibition:

 

   

 

I'll be visiting on next week's Sunday and until then they are on display next to the JR East service counter's office. I wanted to go this Sunday, but because something urgent has come in between, I'll have to refrain.

[velotrain]

It looks like the "flashiest" won, so can only think that it wasn't judged by modelers ;-)

[ToniBabelony]

It looks like the "flashiest" won, so can only think that it wasn't judged by modelers ;-)

 

And that's why the railway hobby is quite stable and possibly growing in Japan.

[velotrain]

On that railway museum module, is that a kit I don't know of, or some serious bashing or even scratchbuilding?

[brill27mcb]

I wonder if it's the same atc circuit that the east penn traction guys adapted from someone in a big Japanese Ttrak group? Perhaps rich or rich can chirp in.

 

Jeff

 

Yes it is! We built our system in 2009 and will be using it on the Unitram layout at our East Penn Traction Club National Trolley Meet in Allentown, PA (USA) in May.

 

I spotted the little boxes in a picture on a now-defunct website for a Japanese group, figured out what they must be, and managed to inquire by email. The two creators of the system shared schematics and hexadecimal program code with us, but they put a copyright on it all, so I cannot pass it along.

 

The basic system uses PIC (programmable integrated circuit) chips. There is a PIC-based block control box for each track block, plus a throttle box which is also PIC-based. You have to download the hex code to the PIC chip in each box after you build them. The boxes get connected in a loop using standard ethernet network cables. Each block control box has a standard Kato blue/white wire pair coming out to connect to its block of the layout, T-Trak style. The throttle box gets its power from a "wall wart" power supply.

 

In operation, you have to insulate each block from its neighbors (both rails) with insulated Unijoiners. Being PIC-based, each block and the entire system is limited to 1 amp, I believe, but that works fine for model trams and trolleys. On our dogbone loop (made to look like double-track) we have 8 blocks so that we can run 4 cars at once comfortably, with minimum interference and stoppages since the block ahead of each car is typically empty or soon will be.

 

It's best to run cars that have the same basic speed profile, so we tend to run all Bachmann, or all Modemo, or all Tomytec, etc., at any one time. The PIC throttle (or the cars) makes a strange high-pitched whine, and it tends to exaggerate the speed differences in different brands. The quick Tomytec chassis must be run at the lowest throttle setting, and we have to crank the throttle way up for slower cars like Arnold Rapido Duewag trams. I tend not to trust that the system will not damage cars equipped with DCC or other fancy electronics.

 

Interestingly, if you throw the direction switch on the throttle box, not only does the flow of trolleys go in the other direction, but so does the detection of a car "ahead." When a block control detects that a car is running on the block "ahead," it slows its block gradually, down to a stop if necessary. When the block "ahead" clears, the box gradually accelerates its own block until the level set by the throttle dial is reached.

 

It's a neat system but has its issues, and I believe its developers do not believe it is ready for "prime time" or commercial use. At a public show, though, where we get talking to spectators, it is great to not have collisions because of distraction or inattention on our part

 

Rich K..

[kvp]

Thanks! I think this information is almost enough to reverse engineer the system. (=current based block detection, pwm drive, current loop block to block communicatiob) I have one question though: From the description, it seems the trams stop after entering a block with another tram ahead at random positions, depending on the speed settings. Is this true?

[Kiha66]

Interesting, I hope the information becomes available someday cause that sounds pretty fun to build and try! 

[ToniBabelony]

I'm also hoping this ATC system will become something public or commercial in the future. However, Tomix seems to have something like this already in their development line, which looks to be friendlier to use for longer and mixed trains.

[kvp]

Yes, the difference between the system described by Rich and the one that is being developed by Tomix is the type of train sensors (track current block occupancy detection versus threadle type wheel sensors) and thus the ease of precise platform stops for the latter. This depends heavily on the use of Tomix TCS wheel sensors and can not be retrofitted into a ttrak layout without lots of hacking or special new sensor modules.

 

Toni and Kiha66, if you are interested i could try to replicate the described functionality at least if my assumption about the varying stop positions are correct.

 

Using the same block for detecting and stopping could be worked around by using a shorter block for detecting and a whole train long block before it for stopping. This would also fix any problems with trains that have distributed power (more than one motor and not on the head of the train). The head of each train would still needs some current consumption, so a headlight or something similar would still be needed for the detector to work. This still rules out long headlightless consists with motors in the middle or back.

 

For the multiple speeds, i think the Tomix system could possibly switch the throttles around to follow each train, but that would limit the number of blocks to a fixed value supported by a single system. However the ATC system described above could be daisy chained to any number of blocks as communication is limited to the nearest two blocks, depending on the set direction. This as a side effect bounds the local throttle to its own block like in a classic multiple throttle handover setup found in most Kato and Tomix instruction books, bringing up the speed matching issue.

 

ps: i think i'm moving any of my further speculations off to a different topic so we don't pollute Toni's topic with various ATC and ATO systems...

Edited March 27, 2017 by kvp

[brill27mcb]

Thanks! I think this information is almost enough to reverse engineer the system. (=current based block detection, pwm drive, current loop block to block communicatiob) I have one question though: From the description, it seems the trams stop after entering a block with another tram ahead at random positions, depending on the speed settings. Is this true?

 

True. It also depends on the running characteristics of the tram. You can't place a model tram stop and have them all always stop exactly there.

 

The trams also momentarily speed up while briefly bridging two blocks.

 

Rich K.

Edited March 27, 2017 by brill27mcb

[kvp]

The speed up is due to unsynchronised pwm pulses OR-ing together through the motors. That could actually kill some coreless motors if the PWM didn't do it alone. That's bad... :-(

 

Tony or Rich, if you could contact the designers, then i would suggest using a free (if there is any) wire pair in the UTP cable for a PWM pulse synch clock sent from a master unit. Could call it railsync or something like that.

[ToniBabelony]

After destroying my old layout project, I pulled out all my Tōbu 6050 Series to remind me why I decided to go for yet again a new project:

 

 

There are two Tomytec sets in their first edition outfits (knuckle coupler, triple amount of roof vents, continuous stripes on the back ends, etc.), so I probably won't be using those in general operations. My mainstay will be Greenmax units, as these have more upscale tooling, better quality plastic, front light (preparation) and interior light preparations. The detailing level is basically the same between Tomytec and Greenmax, as well as the proportions overall, but I still feel more comfortable with Greenmax products' solid feeling.

 

For now, I'm eyeballing either an essential (and probably new) 6050 Series set with double pantographs + coreless motor unit, or just more 6050 Series at the right price. All will eventually be converted to have coreless motors units, front lights (for powered sets), new Tōbu logos, and alternate destination signs (none beyond the south of Minami-kurihashi). The fleet will be extended with a 350 Series (to be released by MicroAce this summer) and eventually other contemporary trains (500 Series, DMU, etc.) that run on the Yagan/Aizu Railway lines once they become available. I'm holding off on getting 6-car Ltd. Express trains, as this will become very expensive, since there a lot...

 

P.s. yes, I know the Skytree Train will probably not run regularly anymore in the coming financial year, but it's just a too nice train to ignore! It will probably continue to be used in special operations.

 

P.p.s. Some experiment with a new T-Trak concept:

 

 

Three modules with the middle one being with inside single trackage to put more emphasis on the scenery. Tracks at the back have to be elevated by modified pillars. Can be used as a standalone three-part triple-length module, but can be expanded as well.

Edited April 5, 2017 by Kabutoni

[ToniBabelony]

Started working on my next T-Trak project. I'm starting out with two single-track single modules (effectively being a double) that have an open frame to minimise weight. The ends have holes to allow for bolts and nuts to hold them together upside-down like so:

 

 

A very simple concept with Akita conifer wood, which is strong, lightweight, cheap and easy to work with. The tracks however on these modules are not on the standard 38mm (should actually be 37.5mm) outside-track distance, but as inside-tracks. See explanation in the post above this one. The modules for now will feature a simple mountain track scene with a detachable front cover (via strong magnets) that won't be load-carrying and thus can be made of lightweight foam. Naturally this will have a faux-wood finish for that extra swag.

 

Anyway, the two frames are done, the carrying system has been made, so it's only about laying down the tracks and making the landscape (the biggest part). In the meantime, I'll also make the two transition modules, because without them, these modules aren't going anywhere...

 

Also, it will easily fit into a standard A4 document carrier box from the 100 yen shop like this as well to make carrying it around a bit easier:

 

 

Later on, I'll have a full carrying setup to handle on a folding dolly for four modules, with extra carrying space for rolling stock and the necessary backside pillars & rails, as well as background plates (although these could still fit in the carrying boxes).

[kvp]

Good to see that my frame based idea caught up. Also, this is a nice upgrade!

[ToniBabelony]

Good to see that my frame based idea caught up. Also, this is a nice upgrade!

Credit where credit is due. It certainly inspired me to make this! Scenery will be limited to the module it is combined with, but with removable buildings and/or parts, this can be overcome easily.

[ToniBabelony]

And here we have the first base for the left transition module! The white foam isn't attached yet, so the trackbed can still be raised to allow for a slightly lower scenery.

 

 

It's more rigid construction, but needs some more claw nuts for the feet and the carrying system. All modules need eight in total (four in the bottom and two on each side).

Edited April 21, 2017 by Kabutoni

[ToniBabelony]

I don't think you people mind me posting day-by-day progress, so here is the left module in the first stages of getting its landscape:

 

 

Rails are fixed in position in the correct alignment already, so the module is practically ready to use. However, a centre and right module still need to be made. For now, the progress on this module will be stopped until I have the right module ready for landscaping (maybe somewhere next week). That way I can decide on the height of the landscape and see if the landscape can be permanently fixed or made modular because of height restrictions.

 

Also, I found out that our local 100 yen shop (Seria) sells little A4-sized grass mats in the small home DIY section! :D

 

 

Cheap stuff for if you don't need large amounts! :)

Edited April 21, 2017 by Kabutoni

[ToniBabelony]

My little module (now demolished) got featured in the latest RM Models (no. 262) on page 131:

 

 

 

This is already the second time I had a module published in RM Models, so I'm very happy about it! It's very motivating to keep on improving my skills :)

Edited April 23, 2017 by Kabutoni

[katoftw]

Good job Toni. Nice to be noticed for ones efforts..

[cteno4]

Kudos toni, well deserved! Expect to see a whole article on your modules soon. You're gunna needs shades to be in public.

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[ToniBabelony]

Shades. That reminds me to get sunglasses for this summer the weather is really starting to clear up these days again, so the light will be bright!

 

On another note: I have also disassembled my former Dutch 25mm spacing module because of bad build quality, but I'm thinking of reusing some of the assets on the old base with improved techniques:

 

 

Don't mind the dirtiness of the rails, as they will be embedded in grass (not the fake one like Tomix), the buildings slightly obscured by trees that will be used as dividers for parking lots in a lane style manner. Perhaps the buildings on the right won't be there and that space will be made a grassy park. Towns in the Netherlands are usually very green after all.

 

I'm choosing to make this again a 25mm spacing module, because I kind of want to have one in my collection. My 33mm spacing modules will be at least triple length, so for small meetings with limited space (the usual for T-Trak Network in Asakusa), the 25mm module will come in handy.

[ToniBabelony]

Well... That went rather quickly... I only need to do the streets and do the detailing. Maybe rework the rails with dark paint to hide the light coloured stains from the previous project. Maybe a crazy idea to put Unitram catenary poles in the middle of the tracks as well. It would add a bit more of a dimension to the whole flat front. More trees will probably come in front of the houses as well.

 

[ToniBabelony]

It's been a while. Baby came, space went away (mostly because I upgraded my work station to a gigantic tablet and powerful computer). I've found myself returning to one of my earlier projects of 16m 2-car trains. After dabbling in many other ideas, a small local railway company in transition is maybe the nicest idea to work with for me.

 

 

This is the fleet so far and will be extended with two ex-Ginza line single car trains and maybe one or two more 2-car ex-Nagoya Municipal Subway (Kotoden) trains and a dedicated express/joyful unit. All will also be repainted (again), but all in due time. Work (and 1:1 train photography) takes up more time nowadays.