Meitetsu DEKI 600 locomotives retired

[miyakoji]

On July 21st, Meitetsu's four DEKI 600 electric locomotives were moved to Meiden-Chikkō Station for scrapping.

 

Interesting facts from the English Wikipedia article:

• Built between 1943 and 1945 by Toshiba
• 603 and 604 were not originally for Meitetsu; they were intended to go to Hainan Island, but couldn't be shipped there.
• 601 and 602 were based at Inuyama, 603 and 604 at Shinkawa
• they weighed 40 tons and were rated at 440kW (about 590hp)

These were basically surplus after the arrival of the new EL120s.  Meitetsu's other old locos, the two DEKI 400s, will also be retired.
 
http://railf.jp/news/2015/07/24/130000.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meitetsu_DeKi_600

 

a year ago, still in service, by kanazawa10026:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Djm6NOyKMik

 

end of the line, literally and figuratively, also by kanazawa10026:

[Densha]

This was to be expected, but I don't understand how 2 new locomotives can replace 6 old ones.

[miyakoji]

Yeah that's a good point.  No excess capacity, I guess.  But these days so many things are done like that.  Does anyone know how long a complete inspection takes, and how often they're done?  Seems like there are times that they'll have only one loco available.

[kvp]

Mothballing them would be wiser or parting out some to keep one running. It would be good if at least one gets preserved.

[miyakoji]

Mothballing them would be wiser or parting out some to keep one running. It would be good if at least one gets preserved.

 

I'd think that somewhere there's a free siding where these could be parked.  No such luck.  If the EL120s aren't available for some reason, they'll just have to use an EMU formation for power.

[velotrain]

When I saw models of these in the brown paint scheme, they didn't appeal to me at all.  The extreme angular body style made them a natural for Aru's design and construction methods.

 

However, when HS showed the Tenshodo HO model in the "new" livery a week or two ago, all that changed and I immediately ordered one.  I was also impressed with their longevity, so I agree that it would be great if one could be preserved.

 

While looking into the proto, I had found this photo:

 

 

 

 

I guessed that the unusual cars might be welded-rail wagons, although quite short a train by US standards - where 20 or more cars are common.  I recall seeing several long trains just north of Providence when they were electrifying the NE Corridor.  The opening scene of the first video confirmed my thought.

 

I have a detail question.  Some proto photos show the "straight" steps seen in the above image (and on the model).  Others have curved steps which seem to wrap around a cylinder - perhaps air or hydraulic (brake?), as seen below.  I haven't bothered to try to connect this to the engine numbers, so don't know if it is related to equipment not universally installed on all four engines.  Actually, looking at the proto steps (including the ends), makes me wish the Tenshodo steps weren't so fat - although, I do understand the reasoning.

 

 

 

[miyakoji]

Charles, the difference in the steps could be between 601/2 which were for Meitetsu from the beginning, and 603/4 which were destined for Hainan, not sure if the buyer was the Japanese government, military, or some other entity.  Or it could be other metalwork that happened over their long lives.

[velotrain]

miyakoji - I decided to look purposefully at all four engines and the results seem to indicate that the difference is due to an error in perception - interpretation.  I've just decided that the curved steps wrap around what are probably brake cylinders, but these are only on one side of the engine, so each engine has both styles.  I was led to this conclusion after finding images of 602 and 603 with both styles of steps.  If I'm correct, Tenshodo hasn't modeled this, as their Deki 600's have straight steps on both sides.  However, US freight cars only have one brake cylinder, so perhaps I'm wrong, or perhaps the second is for backup?  

 

Anyone have general knowledge of brake gear on Japanese locos?

 

 

 

 

At one point at least, only the very tips of the straight steps were painted yellow on 603, and the rest of the assembly was black, so I think I'll do this on my model to help camouflage how fat they are.

 

 

 

 

For those who might want a memory shot of the series I found this beautiful image.

 

 

 

 

If you want a really large version, go to the source site:

http://www.agui.net/imglog/met/imgboard.cgi

If anyone finds a date for the image, I'd be curious when it was taken.

If recent, it seems odd that they would spiff them up for the torch -

unless that's some sort of Japanese tradition?

 

 

Would you know anything of Deki 303, built between 1926-29?

 

 

 

 

Wiki says: "The locomotives were used primarily on track maintenance trains, but following their withdrawal in 2014, only one locomotive, DeKi 303, remains in use, limited to depot shunting duties at Meitetsu's Maigi Maintenance Depot."

 

And we thought the 600's were old!

Since it seems that newer trains are retired after about 30 years service, I guess what they say is true - they just don't build them like they used to.

 

I also discovered what looks to be a very ancient color photo of Deki 201 and 202.  These look very similar to the 300 series, with the side panels being the only body difference that I can spot - there are other images of the 300's out there.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2015 by velotrain

[cteno4]

Damn you Charles, you did it again! Had to go pickup a pair of the aru9 models! Just looked too nice with a pair and that paint scheme! Stripes will be a bit of work, but looks nice! Nice mow yard addition. Can never have enough mow equipment and snow plows!

 

Jeff

Edited July 27, 2015 by cteno4

[velotrain]

Jeff - In reality, what are the chances that you'll build the kits and paint them in that livery?

 

 

I took the easy route and went with the HO version, which already has the paint as well as better detail - although, I'll need to find a better pantograph.

 

 

As mentioned, I initially found this engine rather homely - and that's being nice.  It was the paint job that gave me a completely new perspective on it.

 

 

Now all I need to do is to wait for Kato to rerun the Wamu 380000, and pick up a string of them.

 

Maybe add a matching yellow stripe ?

 

 

Of course, then I'll need to build a HO diorama, or small switching layout . . . . . . .

 

 

 

 

 

[cteno4]

That's the livery I'll go for, really does look smart on them. Yes life has been very hard of late ro get much train time in, but hopefully things will lighten up in the future here.

 

Jeff

[ToniBabelony]

I have one of the Arumo Super Simple BB Convex Electrics, but they don't look like the Toshiba engines once used by Meitetsu, Keisei, JNR, etc. It'd be wiser to go for the World Kōgei Tōshiba 45t version, which is the same type as the Meitetsu DEKI 600 type, with some minor differences, like the side plates.

[velotrain]

Gotta agree with you Toni.

[kvp]

Anyone have general knowledge of brake gear on Japanese locos?

The brake cylinders are usually installed on the bogies, so the rodding is not disturbed by the bogie movement in curves. The usual setup is one cylinder per bogie/axle/wheel depending on the design. These are usually air cylinders as most trains are air braked. There is a need for an air reservoir and the two main tanks are actually suspended between the two bogies on this type. (the aru kit has them) This leaves us with the two unknown small tanks on the side. If they were brake cylinders the brake rods going to the bogies would be visible on higher resolution pictures.

[marknewton]

The brake cylinders on the Toshiba steeplecab locos are mounted on the underframe. That arrangement is typical for older Japanese electric locos that don't have articulated bogies. Bogie movement in curves is allowed for by the use of equalising links and play in the brake rigging.

 

Electric locos with articulated bogies, or the more modern locos of Bo-Bo and Bo-Bo-Bo design have the brake cylinders mounted on the bogies

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

Edited August 8, 2015 by marknewton

[marknewton]

Would you know anything of Deki 303, built between 1926-29?

 

 

 

The carbodies of these locos appear to be copies of the Baldwin-Westinghouse steeplecab types that were exported to Japan during the 1920s to operators like JNR, the Chichibu railway and the Musashino railway.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

Edited August 8, 2015 by marknewton

[velotrain]

The brake cylinders on the Toshiba steeplecab locos are mounted on the underframe. That arrangement is typical for older Japanese electric locos that don't have articulated bogies. Bogie movement in curves is allowed for by the use of equalising links and play in the brake rigging.

 

Thanks much for this info Mark, as they sure look like brake cylinders to me, but I didn't have the knowledge to counter kvp's argument.

 

I've received the Tenshodo model, and it's quite handsome.  So much so that I've ordered a second one, partly because I notice they're frequently run in pairs.  

 

Actually, that made me curious about something.  

Do railroads ever create the work train equivalent of a cab control car?

It seems wasteful to need to assign two locos to a train, just because it will be running in both directions.

There may be some reason this can't be done or isn't even desirable, but so often I'll see two engines with only 3-4 cars between them, and I suspect that only one could supply sufficient power if they only had some way of controlling it from the other end of the set.  I do realize that these intervening cars won't have the cabling to make the connection, but could this be done by remote, wireless means?  Or, wouldn't that be trusted?

 

On another matter, would the Deki 200's be among the "Baldwin-Westinghouse steeplecab types that were exported to Japan during the 1920s" ?

 

As I noted earlier in the thread, the 300's look identical to these except for variations in the side panels.

 

I wonder if any will survive in service to celebrate their centennial?

[kvp]

 

The brake cylinders on the Toshiba steeplecab locos are mounted on the underframe. That arrangement is typical for older Japanese electric locos that don't have articulated bogies. Bogie movement in curves is allowed for by the use of equalising links and play in the brake rigging.

Interesting. This also means that braking in curves gives the bogies an extra twisting force besides the track and the train behind the loco and the actual vector depends on the mounting of the brake linkage and if it's asymetric, the direction of the curve. This isn't too good for efficiency and rather bad on the tracks if applied at higher speeds. (this makes me rember the saying for an old 2x2 axle tram: don't use the track brake in curves as they tend to miss the tracks and get torn off) If anyone has a picture or a drawing from the brake rigging, i would really like to see how did the original builders solved the problem.

 

 

Do railroads ever create the work train equivalent of a cab control car?

Yes, many of them do, especially in europe, but i've seen japanese prototypes built from older emu sets with motors and pantographs only on the ex kumoha part of a double unit. In europe sometimes you find dedicated work trains with a motor unit on one end and a cab/flatcar unit on the other. There is a weed killer train in hungary built with an old cab/baggage/second car on one end and a boxcar and a tanker in the middle withe the loco on the other end. The connecting cabling can be just mounted to the underside of the middle cars with standard remote control sockets near the coupling. In north america using radio control is more common, with some railroads using remote control cars built from old locomotives and recently old cabooses and not only for MOV trains, but normal shunting operations, where the locomotive has to push the cars for a longer distance on an industrial spur. The idea is that if contact is lost with the remote controller, the locomotive has to do an emergency brake application.

 

Using two locomotives for short freight cars is usually done for safety in case anything rolls away and for redundancy, so if an ancient locomotive brakes down, there is a reserve one in the train.

[velotrain]

 In north america using radio control is more common, with some railroads using remote control cars built from old locomotives and recently old cabooses and not only for MOV trains, but normal shunting operations, where the locomotive has to push the cars for a longer distance on an industrial spur. The idea is that if contact is lost with the remote controller, the locomotive has to do an emergency brake application.

 

Thanks for the info, but I don't see the benefit of the above scenario.  Since the crew - even if one man, still needs to work, why not have them aboard?

[kvp]

 

since the crew - even if one man, still needs to work, why not have them aboard?

Generally the same man is uncoupling the cars who controls the locomotive. This way the shunter is free to move around and can move the train from anywhere. During shunting this means he can be at the other end of the train and see where that end is going. Coupling, uncoupling and turnout throwing usually happens on this end, with the locomotive far away on the other end. Also when a freight train is being pushed into a spur, it's better to stand on the front of the train instead of trying to drive it from the back. In the past the shunter was on the front and directing the locomotive driver through hand or flag signals and later radio. Remote control locomotives means the shunter is driving through a radio control unit. It's even possible to stand on the step of a freight car and move the train with a belt mounted remote or walk next to it and throw any misaligned turnouts along the way. They are even used in Europe for passenger stock movements, when a rake or cars are being pushed onto the end of a train at a platform. The shunter has to stand at the connection point to avoid bumping the stationary cars, but the shunting locomotive is on the other end of the moving rake pushing them. Most japanese videos we see has a shunter with two flags directing the driver. With a remote control locomotive, he would be just moving a lever on a remote.

 

Now imagine operating a large layout alone and having the locomotive controls on the other side of the layout. You disconnect a car, go around, move the train, go around, throw a turnout, go around, move the train, go around, connect a car, go around, move the train, go around throw a turnout, go around, move the train, go around, connect a car, just to add an extra car to the middle of a consist. Soon the modeller wants a walk around or more recently a radio control remote. And layout tables are usually not as large as a freight train in a yard. Not to mention the accidents that happen when someone is driving a train without seeing where its front end is going.

 

ps: It's possible to equip non RC locomotives and multiple units to be controllable by hanging a receiver box on one end and connecting it up to the muliple unit cabling and switching all locomotives (or cabs) in the consist to slave mode.

 

The two DEKI-s were used on short MOW freights since it was safer to have a locomotive and a driver on both ends in case one locomotive fails (like the brakes not working or similar). With a reliable modern locomotive and a remote control unit, it's possible to have a single locomotive anywhere in the train and move everything by standing on one of the cars or near the train during shunting/loading/unloading. This cuts down the required crew to a single person and speeds up operations as there is no need to communicate with anyone or to always move the locomotive to the front end for longer trips.

[marknewton]

Charles,

 

Like you I have two of the Tenshodo models - I couldn't stop at only having one! :)

 

JNR and a few of the larger private railways had MOW/work train equipment converted from passenger EMU stock. In the days before the widespread use of mechanical track maintenance equipment I reckon they would have been very useful.

 

With regards to running short MOW trains with a loco on each end I think the main reason for doing so is that you don't need to run the loco round the train when it's time to head home at the end of the job. That's an important consideration on a railway that is otherwise run with EMUs and no other loco-hauled trains, and therefore has no run-round loops at termini. Another reason is that a ballast train will typically change directions a number of times while dropping ballast, so it's good to have a loco and crew at both ends.

 

I can't say for certain whether the Deki 200s are B-W built or local copies, but looking at their bogies I think they might be locally built.

 

Cheers,

 

Mark.

[miyakoji]

They could always do one of these

 

https://youtu.be/IbBeIu_ZpYo?t=1m20s

 

https://youtu.be/5dp7Lnavvvc?t=1m12s

 

I've seen this regularly (different road, different location), they travel at least several miles in this fashion.  What if that guy falls off or something?  Do you think he calls back to the loco every minute just to confirm everything's ok?

[Densha]

Looks like they have been dismantled already last month: http://b1hanabusa.cocolog-nifty.com/blog/2015/07/600-a0a5.html

[miyakoji]

this is a bit more graphic :(  http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/ya_yu_friend/27345726.html

[velotrain]

That link doesn't include one of my favorite Deki 600 shots of his ("Coming and Going").  The guy is truly prolific, and everything he posts is a really high quality image.

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTW - I've been wondering about those "staples" between the tracks.  Since they don't actually impede passage, but more channel it, I've taken them to mean "be careful when crossing".  Sometimes they seem to separate one company's tracks from another when running parallel, while here they just appear to separate tracks / trains running in opposite directions.  Is this the case, or do they have some more formal meaning that I'm not seeing?