Future prospects for Kato 1:150 Swiss metre-gauge?

[SantaFe1970]

I'm intrigued by the upcoming Kato Rhaetian Railway ABe 8/12 Allegra emu model.

 

I had assumed that previous Kato Glacier Express trains were almost novelty items, intended for a Japanese market where that specific train is well known. (Because of general tourist marketing + the tie-in between the Hakone and Rhaetian railways).

 

But the release of the Allegra makes me wonder if Kato might be considering producing an extended Nm 1:150 line...

 

Those of you who have been watching the Kato company for years may have your ideas here.

 

Is the upcoming Allegra a testing of the waters, for the Japanese market, and maybe the European?

 

Or is this more likely a one-off model?

 

I'm also curious about Kato's price point for this model, 148,000 yen. 14,800 yen. Does this signal anything about the expected market for this model?

 

Hmm.

Edited April 8, 2015 by SantaFe1970

[ozman2009]

I'm curious about the gauge of track used. In HO, metre gauge is 12mm, unless I'm mistaken.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I wonder of this is more of a speculative punt from Kato...which is not really in keeping with their normal M.O. The Glacier Express has sold well, and there has been a fair amount of excitement around this offering. I would be suprised - but thrilled - if there was much more RhB stuff to come; and no, I don't expect to see this in Nm3 any time soon!

[Densha]

1/150 is a really strange school scale considering that all European N scale stuff is 1/160. They could've better done it in 1/160 IMHO. Regauging it to 6.5mm or something should make things look good anyway.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Densha

[kvp]

Tomix released the hakone tozan allegra while Kato will make the rhb allegra. The glacier express cars are towed by the rhb allegra on the last leg of their route, the most famous part to Italy.

 

1/150 is the common scale of cape (~meter) gauge japanese trains, so it's natural Kato keeps the scales consistent.

 

I would like to see a 4 axle rhb commuter emu and the offer would be perfect.

[SantaFe1970]

1/150 is a really strange school considering that all European N scale stuff is 1/160. They could've better done it in 1/160 IMHO. Regauging it to 6.5mm or something should make things look good anyway.

 

Exactly. Indeed, I had just assumed the Allegra and other Rhaetian models were in 1:160. It was realizing it was in 1:150 that got me thinking there might be more to this, and the start of a European metre-gauge line similar to the established 1:150 Japanese cape gauge models. 

[ToniBabelony]

Even though it's not to scale for Europe, it is for Japan. I presume sales in Japan are higher (for this model as well), which makes the Japanese market more important.

 

Also, the price will be ¥14,800 and not ¥148,000: http://www.katomodels.com/n/allegra/ Very very reasonable for a foreign 3-car EMU, which makes me think again this model is indeed intended for the Japanese market.

[SantaFe1970]

 

I would like to see a 4 axle rhb commuter emu and the offer would be perfect.

 

Agreed. But then I would hope for more Swiss metre-gauge models... (I have a soft spot for the Brunigbahn.)

[katoftw]

I would agree with Toni.  It is for Japan.

 

If international buyers are found, then bonus for Kato.

[SantaFe1970]

 

 

Also, the price will be ¥14,800 and not ¥148,000: http://www.katomodels.com/n/allegra/ Very very reasonable for a foreign 3-car EMU, which makes me think again this model is indeed intended for the Japanese market.

 

Thanks for catching my typo in the Original Post on the list price -- a very misleading error. 

[Densha]

But even though it is marketed for Japan, why would they do it in 1/150 scale? Apart from that Shinkansen are also 1/160 even though other Japanese N gauge stuff isn't, creating a European-styled layout in 1/150 is close to impossible if you want to go without scratch-building. I don't see a reason why they wouldn't just go for 1/160. I don't think most Japanese would care and Kato could also make more profit from European modellers.

[ToniBabelony]

But even though it is marketed for Japan, why would they do it in 1/150 scale? Apart from that Shinkansen are also 1/160 even though other Japanese N gauge stuff isn't, creating a European-styled layout in 1/150 is close to impossible if you want to go without scratch-building. I don't see a reason why they wouldn't just go for 1/160. I don't think most Japanese would care and Kato could also make more profit from European modellers.

 

The thing is, the majority of Japanese modellers don't build layouts; they collect rolling stock. You see that in magazines and shops, where the focus is on reviews, upgrading and the creation of rolling stock. Layouts come at a very low place in general. And yes, Japanese do care about scale accuracy, so this train series fits with the collection of Japanese rolling stock most buyers will already have.

 

However, personally I do agree 1/160 would have been better. 1/150 is just more marketable.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Toni Babelony

[kvp]

1/150 is scale correct for japanese buildings, figures, track and fully compatible with british 1/148 buildings, figures and track. Kato sells buildings and figures for its rhb sets so its reasonable they try to keep the scale as Nj.

[SantaFe1970]

The glacier express cars are towed by the rhb allegra on the last leg of their route, the most famous part to Italy.

 

 

This explains a lot to me. I wonder, are other Swiss metre gauge tourist trains well known in Japan? For example, the Golden Pass? 

[Densha]

The thing is, the majority of Japanese modellers don't build layouts; they collect rolling stock. You see that in magazines and shops, where the focus is on reviews, upgrading and the creation of rolling stock. Layouts come at a very low place in general. And yes, Japanese do care about scale accuracy, so this train series fits with the collection of Japanese rolling stock most buyers will already have.

 

However, personally I do agree 1/160 would have been better. 1/150 is just more marketable.

1/150 is scale correct for japanese buildings, figures, track and fully compatible with british 1/148 buildings, figures and track. Kato sells buildings and figures for its rhb sets so its reasonable they try to keep the scale as Nj.

 

At the same time the gauge for Japanese 1/150 is entirely incorrect and Shinkansen are in a different scale (1/160), so Japanese N gauge is not really 'correct' in that sense anyway.

 

Swiss trains don't fit in with Japanese trains anyway. Of course you can run them together, but if a Japanese modeller has some other 1/160 scale European trains this RhB stuff won't be the same scale as those either. I don't really get the choice.

[railsquid]

A similar thread in German for anyone interested: http://www.1zu160.net/scripte/forum/forum_show.php?id=833647

[kvp]

The Rhatische Bahn and the Hakone-Tozan are both tourist railways and are actually partnered. The Hakone Tozan even went so far to use swiss paint schemes on their trains and name their new emu types after RhB trains along with a few swiss style station fronts along its route. Also there are so many japanse tourists that visit the RhB, that some stations have japanese station signs besides the 3 standard swiss languages.

 

The RhB is the main train company for G scale trains, so most of their past and current rolling stock has been issued in G scale and have a rather large market share amongst garden train fans. So there is a larger european market for RhB trains.

 

Currently we have the Kato Glacier express locomotive with the panorama cars, will have the Allegra emu and Kato actually released one of the old RhB cars in its pocket line (along with a very simple old steam locomotive with one version actually in RhB paint). Imho possible candidates for production are the old yellow emu railcars with the matching passenger cars and the more modern Abe4/4 commuter emu-s which also gave their paint to some Odakyu commuter emu-s (the parent company of Hakone Tozan). Third option is the classic swiss meter gauge passenger car often seen with the Glacier express as add-on cars, which Kato already produces in a longer 1:160 standard gauge version and there are the tourist pullman cars in orient express livery. These are the trains most japanese tourists see or ride on. The RhB is large enough to have lots of other, less known trains.

 

 

I wonder, are other Swiss metre gauge tourist trains well known in Japan?

Not as much as the RhB, mainly because the RhB was running tourist trains well before the 2nd world war and like the Hakone Tozan their main target is tourists. (not much people live around the Bernina pass today, so most trains are run for tourists) 

[railsquid]

Swiss trains don't fit in with Japanese trains anyway. Of course you can run them together, but if a Japanese modeller has some other 1/160 scale European trains this RhB stuff won't be the same scale as those either. I don't really get the choice.

 

railsquid looks at a consist of his running right now with 1:148, 1:150 and 1:160 vehicles and decides he's beyond caring ;)

[kvp]

 

if a Japanese modeller has some other 1/160 scale European trains this RhB stuff won't be the same scale as those either. I don't really get the choice.

If they were 1/160, then the Japanese buyers would be forced to buy buildings and figures from european makers instead of from Kato and couldn't run their RhB trains on their layouts. Since the bigger market is Japan, Kato tries to make a product that can be sold in Japan. Standard N scale in Japan is 1:150 and only high speed trains running on separate tracks are 1:160, like the shinkansen, the french TGV and the swiss Gottardo, both made by Kato.

 

For me, most of my rolling stock is either 1:150 or 1:148, so a 1:160 RhB train would be way out of scale compared to the track and other trains. The overwhelming majority of japanse buyers are in the same situation.

[SantaFe1970]

A similar thread in German for anyone interested: http://www.1zu160.net/scripte/forum/forum_show.php?id=833647

 

Interesting to see this perspective (including a joking proposal for a compromise 1:155 scale?!). 

 

Thanks for sharing.

[SantaFe1970]

The Rhatische Bahn and the Hakone-Tozan are both tourist railways and are actually partnered. The Hakone Tozan even went so far to use swiss paint schemes on their trains and name their new emu types after RhB trains along with a few swiss style station fronts along its route. Also there are so many japanse tourists that visit the RhB, that some stations have japanese station signs besides the 3 standard swiss languages.

 

 

The RhB-Hakone partnership seems to have helped build Japanese tourism/modeling interest in the RhB. Any ideas how well this has worked going the other way? Are Swiss/German railfans/modelers interested in the Hakone Tozan?

 

(And, as a side note, when I was in the Grindelwald valley in Switzerland about five-six years ago I was surprised at the number of Indian tourists. Apparently, the Alps feature in many famous Bollywood movies as stand-ins for the Himalayas. Or, that was the explanation I heard at the time.)

[katoftw]

railsquid looks at a consist of his running right now with 1:148, 1:150 and 1:160 vehicles and decides he's beyond caring ;)

indeed there are some interesting comments from this thread.

 

but from the disgust people have for running slightly different scales.  i'm guess many poster do no run shinkansens and commuters on the same layout due to the scaling differences.

 

my car factor for differences in 1/144, 1/148, 1/150 and 1/160 is beyond caring also.

[kvp]

 

The RhB-Hakone partnership seems to have helped build Japanese tourism/modeling interest in the RhB. Any ideas how well this has worked going the other way? Are Swiss/German railfans/modelers interested in the Hakone Tozan?

If you take the number of railway modellers in Europe and generate the cross section with the number of europeans going to Japan and actually riding on the Hakone Tozan, then a significant amount of them are interested. (might be less than a dozen a year) Then they find out that the most popular scale in Japan is not H0 and nobody heard about the maerklin 3 rail system either... (at least Tomix tries to fix this by making the new Hakone Tozan emus in H0j)

 

The number of railway modellers in Japan and the number of tourists who go to see the RhB is significantly larger, due to both groups being much larger to start with and turism by rail is popular among japanese.

[Ewan.in.gz]

indeed there are some interesting comments from this thread.

 

but from the disgust people have for running slightly different scales.  i'm guess many poster do no run shinkansens and commuters on the same layout due to the scaling differences.

 

my car factor for differences in 1/144, 1/148, 1/150 and 1/160 is beyond caring also.

I totally agree.... My scenic items include a few Bachmann structures, left over from my US modelling days, and a mix of European, American and Japanese road vehicles.... And as far as trains are concerned, I "solve" the scale dilemma by running Shinkansen on viaducts separate from the metre gauge trains.

[HantuBlauLOL]

1/150 would be a better scale for representing meter gauge in 6.5mm with 0.1mm gauge error (6.6mm for actual representation of meter gauge) while 1/160 gives you 0.25mm gauge error (6.25mm).

 

And 1/160 is better for representing cape gauge in 6.5 mm.