New rolling stock for Yamanote Line- 235 series

[kvp]

Personally i think the only big external design difference between a 209 and a 231 are their front ends. From the outside, 235-s will also differ only in their front ends. The lower side sripe is removed, but it stays above the doors, so if a train is stopped and all doors are open, the above door stripe could still be used to identify the line. Not that it's too important, just look at all the various advertisment covered sets running on the Yamanote nowdays.

 

Also, imagine a normal european station with generally 2 or 3 types of trains used on all lines and types are assigned based on availability and capacity, so every type of train is used on almost every line. The platform and train front/side displays show which train goes where and it's generally enough and no extra color coding is required. Color coded trains look better, but they are not really needed. Not to mention, if JR East would make a train that has led displays above the doors and a general front end, then any train could be used on any line. Of course the current japanese practice with dedicated sets doesn't allow this, but it's a possibility and imho the new JR West 2-3 car sets are already designed with mix and match in mind. Having a uniform paint for all trains of a certain class looked great for the JNR too. Of course if the same paint is used for a hundred years, then it's less obvious if a certain train is new or not. (for the latter a good example is the hungarian railways, where the first high speed multiple unit carried the same paint in 1934 that is used today on the modern sets, or an even better example is the budapest transport company which has been using the same tram and suburban train paint scheme since 1880, only the company's name changed a few times during the years. And of course they replace the rolling stock every 50-60 years, so it's possible that someone commuted their entire working life on the same trains and trams. Compared to this, Japan is a fast and rapidly changing country, which makes it much more interesting... :)

[Guest keio6000]

Personally i think the only big external design difference between a 209 and a 231 are their front ends. From the outside, 235-s will also differ only in their front ends. The lower side sripe is removed, but it stays above the doors, so if a train is stopped and all doors are open, the above door stripe could still be used to identify the line. Not that it's too important, just look at all the various advertisment covered sets running on the Yamanote nowdays.

 

Also, imagine a normal european station with generally 2 or 3 types of trains used on all lines and types are assigned based on availability and capacity, so every type of train is used on almost every line. The platform and train front/side displays show which train goes where and it's generally enough and no extra color coding is required. Color coded trains look better, but they are not really needed. Not to mention, if JR East would make a train that has led displays above the doors and a general front end, then any train could be used on any line. Of course the current japanese practice with dedicated sets doesn't allow this, but it's a possibility and imho the new JR West 2-3 car sets are already designed with mix and match in mind. Having a uniform paint for all trains of a certain class looked great for the JNR too. Of course if the same paint is used for a hundred years, then it's less obvious if a certain train is new or not. (for the latter a good example is the hungarian railways, where the first high speed multiple unit carried the same paint in 1934 that is used today on the modern sets, or an even better example is the budapest transport company which has been using the same tram and suburban train paint scheme since 1880, only the company's name changed a few times during the years. And of course they replace the rolling stock every 50-60 years, so it's possible that someone commuted their entire working life on the same trains and trams. Compared to this, Japan is a fast and rapidly changing country, which makes it much more interesting... :)

 

Sorry, but I think you're making excuses based on the poorly thought through basic argument that "sub-optimal other systems exist, therefore this one can be sub-optimal too."

 

user (in this case, passenger) errors are stochastic processes. they are a function of many things, but crucial to this discussion are "user interfaces."   a well designed, mutliply-redundant user interface will reduce the statistical occurrence of user errors:

 

 

 

(sorry the above is hard to read - the switches above say 'windshield wiper', 'fm radio', 'ejector seat', 'cabin lights') - it is a comical example of a bad interface.

 

the cities where i have lived other than tokyo uniformly have smaller and simpler train systems but where rolling stock are often not dedicated to a particular line and/or there is a mix of rolling stock.   "user access inefficiencies", that is, either people getting on the right train or having to waste time figuring out if it's the right train are massive.  yes, for each user mitstake there is something they should have seen.. but didn't.

 

a small color mark above the door, not easily visible when you hurry down the stairs and the door closing bell is ringing, is not as good as a large stripe.  the large strips is not as good as a solid color (if the color is unique).

 

more is better.  redunancy and consistency, not "blaming the user" because "you should have seen mark x".    

 

in my view, these E235s can be a step backwards in the UI category, especially if similar E235s come online for other lines.  imagine running down a platform and seeing a train on the left and right - both doors open (so you can't see the color on the doors). one is a Keihin Tohoku with a blue-green mark above the door but otherwise silver and the other is a Yamanote with a little green above the door but otherwise completely silver.  That moment's hesitation that you need to check and double check is what good user interface design tries to avoid.

[bronzeonion]

Once built it will look alot better than the artist impression drawing like most things do. I envy Japanese railway passengers and workers as theyre trains are designed sensibly! They are all based from the previous model, making improvements on things that have needed improvement or can be improved thanks to new technology. Each new design of train in the UK is nothing like the old one and is normally just a platform for the manufacturer to show off its new non compatible technology whilst also looking terrible!

 

I'm sure the E231-500s will find work elsewhere just like the ex Keihin Tohoku 209s did on the Sobu, Narita, Uchibo and Sotobo lines in Chiba! Possibly even to replace the *205 series on the Musashino line. The 205 series before the E231-500s found work didnt they after a few mods?

[bronzeonion]

For example this is the Class 68 which is the newest locomotive for the UK at the moment. https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSzs8AOpRXgwbH5YH8SZAwEiaRMAybsBTgpAtbPcm1vkEPYPBYy

Designed to look 'modern' with all the stupid styling and already dated looking lights also with terrible visibility in the sides of the cab where it is seriously lacking on alot of modern trains in the UK these days.

 

And here is a modern JR locomotive http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/EF510_501_oomiya.JPG

 

Now that is a sensible design which will at least not look dated in 30 years time! Also with excellent visibility all around from the cab.

Edited July 21, 2014 by bronzeonion

[Sacto1985]

Alas, I think most of the E231-500 trainsets will be headed to the scrapyard, though some better-condition trainsets could be rebuilt to E235 standards. The E231-500 trainsets have been hard-worked since the early 2000's (all that stop and go running really wears on the trainsets), and extending their physical life beyond 15 years may not be economical.

[Densha]

For example this is the Class 68 which is the newest locomotive for the UK at the moment. https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSzs8AOpRXgwbH5YH8SZAwEiaRMAybsBTgpAtbPcm1vkEPYPBYy

Designed to look 'modern' with all the stupid styling and already dated looking lights also with terrible visibility in the sides of the cab where it is seriously lacking on alot of modern trains in the UK these days.

 

And here is a modern JR locomotive http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/EF510_501_oomiya.JPG

 

Now that is a sensible design which will at least not look dated in 30 years time! Also with excellent visibility all around from the cab.

It seems to be a trend for European trains recently to make drivers concentrate on the front rather than give an overall view of the area. The most extreme example is the rebuild of the Dutch DD-AR sets where they literally removed the side windows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_DD-AR (compare the first two pics)

[bronzeonion]

It seems to be a trend for European trains recently to make drivers concentrate on the front rather than give an overall view of the area. The most extreme example is the rebuild of the Dutch DD-AR sets where they literally removed the side windows: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NS_DD-AR (compare the first two pics)

 

Yes I know, as well as centralising the driving position I dont understand why it is happening. With an express passenger EMU I can understand how it may give a better view ahead but with a locomotive where you have to couple up to a train, having a central view only will only cause trouble.

[Densha]

Originally I think it was only featured on European high-speed trains. The first TGV's still had windows all around the cab but the German ICE's were the first HST's to feature this I think. The first Shinkansen featuring this were the 500 and E2 I think. Later on it's being introduced in 'regular' trains as well. But I have no idea where the origin of the idea lies.

[Davo Dentetsu]

Yes I know, as well as centralising the driving position I dont understand why it is happening. With an express passenger EMU I can understand how it may give a better view ahead but with a locomotive where you have to couple up to a train, having a central view only will only cause trouble.

Just a thought, but since a lot of those operations would be a two-man job anyway with radio communication, you can eliminate a lot of the work the driver needs to do that isn't purely driving.

[kvp]

The elimination of the side windows were already happening in the 1990-s, when the OBB 4010 (transalpin) sets lost their panorama cabs, but the origin is Germany in the 1920-s. Old DRG electric locomotives didn't have side windows on the cabs, and the driver had to trust the crew's signals during shunting or even while departing with a passenger train. Imho the first HST with a small windshield and no side windows was the DRG Class SVT 877 (later SVT 137) in 1932, which already had a central driver's seat.

 

On modern trains, the idea is that by placing the driver in the center, he will have enough field of vision to see everyting ahead that has to be seen and couldn't get distracted by lineside details. The start signals have to be place far enough to be visible from the driver's seat. The side windows were also required for the rearview mirrors, which were important in case a passanger train was run with a single driver (in Japan this called one man operation). These mirrors were eliminated by using cameras. On modern boxcap freight locomotives, the locomotive has a camera in the dashboard looking forward to record any events. The same camera on the other end could be used as a reversing camera, so the driver could see the pictures from both forward looking cameras and all 4 rearview cameras while sitting at one of the control panels. Actually many trains could be driven all the way with these cameras only, including emu-s and push-pull sets.

 

The front design is different from company to company. Siemens has a very good and uniform look on most of it's rolling stock, so most of their electric and diesel locomotives have the same streamlined fronts as their driving trailers and emu/dmu sets. The worst example is vossloh, who manages to make the ugliest trains ever to run in europe. The br class 68 is one example of their lack of design sense.

[200系]

Interesting development, though not unexpected. With the oldest 231系500番台 cars at 12 years of age already a replacement was bound to appear sooner or later. Though we will still see combine E231系/E235系 service for a few years after the introduction of the E235系 of course, so the E231系500番台 can still be enjoyed for a while.

Judging by the concept art, I don't really like the appearance of the E235系 (not surprising as I prefer older designs) but then again It's form follows function for this type of train. I don't think anyone categorized their predecessors like the 103系 (especially the ATC cab versions) or 205系 as beauty's when they where first introduced, they where functional designs though, and functionality has a beauty of it's own, so who know how we'll view the E235系 when it's about to retire in 20 years.

 

Will miss the E231系500番台 though, one of the few 'modern' designs I actually really like (together with the E217系). I always enjoyed the sound of the E231系0番台/900番台/500番台 IGBT-VVVF system as well, had a nice contrast to the ghostly sound the E231系1000番台/E233系 IGBT's produce.

 

Considering how long the 103 and the 113 series lasted...

 

Yes, but then you also have to take the long production run of both systems into consideration.

The 103系 and 113系 are probably two of the best known examples of J.N.R.'s drive to modernize starting in earnest in the early 1960's. With this J.N.R. also wanted to restructure their rolling stock around standardized designs, e.g. the 103系 for commuter services, 113系/115系/415系/711系 for local services and 183系/485系 etc for limited express services etc. While this process eventually led to a high degree of standardization, at least in term of train types, this also meant that quite a few types remained into production much longer then originally anticipated. For the 103系 in particular, this meant that while the design was already considered obsolete in the early 1970's, J.N.R. kept ordering more (though with some modification through the different sub-types, the most recognizable being the change from the original cab style, to the ATC or high cab design in 1974) until the final 103系 cars where delivered in 1984, 21 years after the first cars where delivered in 1963 and at that point totally outdated.

The 113系 wasn't that different, being built between 1963 and 1982 with about 6 different sub-types. So yes, while series like the 103系 and 113系 remain(ed) in service for a considerable amount of time, the surviving examples are mostly the last few sub-types built at the end of their production run (there are some exception of course, like the remaining low-cab 103系 cars).

 

 

And why replace stock that's 10 years old?

 

That seems to be the historic precedent set since J.N.R. times (at least since the introduction of the 101系 in 1961), and it might have been going on even before that, though I couldn't find any data for the period before 1961.

 

- The 101系 was retired from the Yamanote line in 1968, after only 7 years of service on the line.

- The 103系 was introduced on the Yamanote line starting in 1963, as a better suited replacement for the 101系. the first cars where all of the low cab variety, and where progressively placed into service through the 1960's.

- In 1970 new air conditioned 103系 cars where introduced, these cars would start to replace the oldest non air conditioned 103系 cars

- In 1974 the ATC cab cars where introduced for the 103系 (though I believe the first car for the Yamanote line was delivered in 1975, but I'm not 100% positive). These cars where used, together with new AC equipped cars, to progressively replace the remaining older 103系 cars. This process finished around 1980~1981 after this period only the ATC cab/AC cars where left, the last of which retired in 1988 after the bulk of the 205系 cars had been delivered (so even the oldest 103系 cars would've had about 14 years of service at most on the Yamanote line).

- In 1985 the first 205系 formations where delivered, allowing the oldest ATC cab 103系 cars to be withdrawn from the Yamanote line, a process that would continue until the final 205系 formations where delivered in 1988.

- The 205系 formations in turn, where progressively replaced by new E231系500番台 formations from 2002 onwards (the oldest formations first) with the final 205系 formations withdrawn in 2005. So those formations where retired after roughly 15~17 years of service as well.

 

Now of course, a number of retired 103系 cars where cascaded down to different lines (I could find the Yokohama line for example, but more info is hard to find, does anyone have/know of a full 103系 roster?), but I wouldn't be surprised if a few of them have been scrapped in that period as well.

 

Low cab 103系 on the Yamanote line (1975)

 

 

ATC Cab 103系 on the Yamanote line (1975)

 

 

Anyway, that's it for my overly long reply again. :)

[Sacto1985]

200系, the reason why JR East is announcing the E235's now is the fact the E231-500's are starting to get old from all that stop-and-go operation over the years--they are among the hardest-worked trainsets on the JR East system. I expect J-TREC and the JR East Niitsu assembly lines to build a LOT of E235's in very short order to replace the E231-0's on the Chūō-Sōbu Line service, E231-500's on Yamanote LIne service, and 205's on Musashino LIne service.

[Guest ___]

I prefer the low cabs to the ATC cabs. Shame maybe we cant get a 235 retro style, oh well

[kvp]

Thanks 200系! This is a perfect explanation of the rolling stocks of the yamanote line. Guess we are just used to the similar sight of the yamanote line 103 series trains between 1968 and 1988 and always assumed they were just got upgraded over the time and not replaced. Come to think about it, that's only 20 years and they had 4 generations (101, 103, 103 ac, 103 high cab). I can't really compare this to the hungarian BHEV MIX/A suburban sets that are running since 1963... (same role, same stopping pattern, same load, but instead of 11 cars only 6 cars and after 52 years of service still in use) Afaik the BR class 411 4cep units got the same long life, so i wonder whether the modern trains that replaced them will last that long?

[E231-500]

I just have to post that all this news is making me 'A Sad Panda' ( a South Park reference for those who don't know )

 

These are my favourite trains and I personally think the artists impression of the new sets is quite unattractive. I can only hope that in construction they will look better.

 

My 8 year old has made it known that we must travel to japan and spend a day or two on them prior to withdrawal from service. Is there a close to definite time frame for the replacement of the E231-500's?

[HantuBlauLOL]

Alas, I think most of the E231-500 trainsets will be headed to the scrapyard, though some better-condition trainsets could be rebuilt to E235 standards. The E231-500 trainsets have been hard-worked since the early 2000's (all that stop and go running really wears on the trainsets), and extending their physical life beyond 15 years may not be economical.

or getting a new life in one of southeast asian countries.

[Sacto1985]

or getting a new life in one of southeast asian countries.

 

I don't think so. The problem with the E231-500's is that given the type of service those trainsets were subject as I described earlier, the physical wear on each E231-500 will be huge and refurbishment of the trainset for use in Indonesia may not be economically viable.

[kvp]

I wonder if they save at least a 3 or 4 car set in running condition or just plinth a cab car or two and recycle the rest. (recycle = disassemble and use everything still usable, like the new platform door cars got doors from different recycled cars)

[Densha]

I don't think more than a cab car will be stored somewhere though if you follow JR trends. So if you like dem E231-500's so much, you gotta do a roundy-roundy all day before it's too late.

[miyakoji]

Do these really have more kms or service hours on them relative to their actual age than other models?

[kvp]

 

Do these really have more kms or service hours on them relative to their actual age than other models?

Not really, but it doesn't help that it's a circle route, so no terminal dwell times. Also, it's an all stops service, while the comparable keihin tohoku line has express services. The frequencly is 2 minutes, one of the busiest of all lines with the least station dwell times. Station distances are short on the whole line, meaning constant maximal acceleration and breaking. The service life for this kind of use is planned to be 15 years, so the cars would need new bogies and some strengthening in the frames after that. Also replacement door mechanics and traction electronics are needed. Properly rebuilt, they could be used for another 15 years. The problem is that this rebuild would cost exactly the same amount you would need to strip them and build new trains. The new trains would be the same as the current ones, except newly made frames, new bogies, new (better and faster) traction electronics, new (faster) door mechanics and less seats. (2 cars worth of seats are removed to get the same capacity as with the old cattle cars with seats folded up) Since many parts could be reused, the bare frames with bogies and the old traction electronics could be sold, but i don't think anyone would be able to keep them running for more than a few years without a proper rebuild. Most of the trains that went to other countries could be run for another 10 or 20 years without proper maintenance before they fall apart. (which they do in the end) These new sets were designed to be used up around the end of their service life +-1 year. (so they have to be replaced after 14 to 16 years of running) If you don't care about frequent brakedowns, then you can get them to work for another 3-5 years before a catastrophic failiure. Even then, you can still play mix and match every day with the whole feleet to get working sets out each morning. (less and less every day) Might work for a small company out in nowehere with a large yard to store the broken cars, but probably not really acceptable for JR East.

[Guest ___]

I'd like to see them go to some third world country as a cheap replacement, but I doubt it will happen. Hopefully maybe one trainset will be preserved due to how iconic the 231's have been on the Yamanote line.

 

Personally, if I had the cash, I'd bring a set over to be used for a model train shop, a diner, or a cosplay bordello.

[JR 500系]

I'd like to see them go to some third world country as a cheap replacement, but I doubt it will happen. Hopefully maybe one trainset will be preserved due to how iconic the 231's have been on the Yamanote line.

 

 

Actually, I would like to see them shipped to Singapore to replace our lousy MRT. Even how old the E231-500 series are, they're still way better than our brand new transit trains.  :)

 

Plus, it'll actually make me feel like i'm in Tokyo since the E231-500 is an icon of the Yamanote, without actually leaving the country!  :)

[Guest ___]

JR500, didn't SMS Transit start taking delivery on new MRT trainsets from Alstom last week? (Alstom Metropolis C751C, series)

Edited July 28, 2014 by Shashinka
spelling correction

[JR 500系]

Yes they did. And they broke down again. Not due to the trains, but due to the tracks.

 

It's something they can't do it right all the time.

 

By the way, nice information on that Shashinka san!