Toni's Model Train Adventures

[ToniBabelony]

Please check the official standard:

http://ttrak.org/standards.html

http://ttrak.org/images/Single%20base%20v3.jpg

Tram/traction track distance is 25 mm, mainline 33. This doesn't change the fact that the module height is 7 cm in both cases.

Cute, but considering I live in Japan, I follow the Japanese standards as set by RM Models in May 2000. So far, during all my meetings with the T-Trak organisation, I haven's seen ANYBODY follow the 7cm height rule, nor the 33mm spacing here. You might consider reading up on some history of T-Trak as well for this concept: http://ttrak.org/history.html

Edited April 20, 2016 by Toni Babelony

[kvp]

Ok, first you follow the tram/traction variant, that's ok, since it's the classic for small trains. Running shinkansens on it wouldn't be a good idea, but that's not the point. (the corners themselves are the smaller variant, good for small trains only as the 216mm radius is below the minimum of many N scale japanese commuter trains and mainline locomotives) Recently Kato has adopted these rules as their tram track standard.

 

However from your link:

 

モジュールの高さは、RMM掲載時の規格では、「接地面からベースボード上面すなわちユニトラックの底面までの寸法を60mmとする」旨定められました。ただし、実際の運転会において60mmでの運転が行われることはほとんど無いのが実情です。T-Trak Networkの運転会では、接地面からベースボード上面すなわちユニトラックの底面までの寸法を100mmとし、アジャスターを備えて±5mm以上の調節ができるようにしています。

and

That's the 25 mm spacing, but as you see, the full height is 10 cm with the small screw fully out and they written 6 cm for the module boxes, where the ttrak standard has 7 cm. 10 cm running height seems to be the norm, but that leaves no play (actually only +-5 mm) for table height adjustments, which can be less than required. (last time we had around 20 mm height difference between tables) So if you are compatible with your friends, that's ok, but you are are off from the common minimum standards here and there. (please note the almost never comment above in the japanese text, which means the writer is allowing a deviation from the standard as most of the time it's ok, except when not)

[katoftw]

now we are past having a dissagreement about different regional standard, I have a question.

A little progress:

 

 

The Hohenzollern under the bridge with a Kashima Rinkai KiHa 431 (Railway Collection) along a freight train, rumbling over it. The brick pattern styrene is a Nanyō Bussan product. The stones are bit too big for buildings, but do fine for infrastructure and making street rails.

Until I can to the bottom here and found my anser about the manufacturer of the bricks.  Thanks. haha

[ToniBabelony]

Glad to be of help on the stone styrene. These are in general cheaper than Evergreen sheets, so perfect for big projects. Available in both (roughly) DIN A4 and A3 sizes IIRC).

 

Anyway, the height difference for the module housings is a bit moot. It's mostly to hide the ATC system under the modules for multiple train operations. However, these devices usually just lay behind the modules, rather than under them.

 

There is in Japan however a 33mm spacing in use, but that is with the subway level track (15mm height). And yes, that system is experimental, but almost always in use to have full heavy rail consists in operation.

Edited April 20, 2016 by Toni Babelony

[ToniBabelony]

Today, I removed the paper streets, since they were too high and added a more bumpy stone powder clay layer over instead. I don't know how good this will abide (let's see when it dries), but it will be easy to paint and was easy to mould. For now, no buildings have been added/made yet, but here is already a little preview of how contemporary chaotic South East Asian street traffic can look like with an ancient steam tram rolling through.

 

Also, I've been cutting the backside away a bit, since I want to limit the size a bit to be able to put it in a reasonable sized box for transport. The height of the buildings will be limited by the box as well, but if I make them sectional, they can at least be doubled in height. I'd like to have one building with three floors or so in the background.

 

 

 

[ToniBabelony]

Today I slapped a cardboard building together. It looks a bit rough, but that's okay I think. Maybe I'll smoothen out some things, but in general, this is the basic look. Windows and doors will be added, as well as balconies on the 2nd floor. It'd be like a small city centre hotel with some eateries (cantina, Imbiss, warung, shokudō, rotisserie, whatchamacallit) on the lower floor. Lots of details to be done.

 

 

EDIT: darnit. Just found out this building is a bit too high for the box I'll be using. Maybe I'll make it a removable so I can also detail the roof. Make it a hotel completely without the ground floor shops.

Edited April 21, 2016 by Toni Babelony

[cteno4]

Nice job Toni, especially with cardboard!

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[ToniBabelony]

Soon the cardboard skills will jump in skill levels, as I've received my Silhouette Portrait. With this, I can experiment more, quicker and cheaper than 3D printing.

 

With this, and my recent visit to the Asakusa Model Train Market, I've become charmed by HO narrow gauge trains as well. Compared to N narrow, there is a wealth of stuff on the market (mostly because Z gauge isn't very popular). It's a scale bigger than N narrow gauge, but a lot more flexible, has a large following and allows for more detailing. It'll be a thing I've considered for a while, but I think -next to T-Trak- this can become a viable home layout project...

 

P.s. here is a 651 Series I caught running on the Mito line a few days ago: https://youtu.be/iTjkS36mJ2Y beware of bad sound.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Toni Babelony

[cteno4]

Toni,

 

Does the alternate 33mm ttrak spacing allow enough room for HO narrow gauge? Are there HO narrow gauge module standards in Japan?

 

Jeff

[ToniBabelony]

I'm not sure about 33mm spacing allowing for HOn spacing below the track, but I assume it's too low. I now have plans to make a 25mm spaced module, a 33mm spaced module and a portable and a HOn layout that can be stored in a box. Maybe integrate the HOn layout with one of the KBMC standards: http://em007.cside.jp/~s11713-1/kbmc/, but I'd like it to be a standalone project first and foremost.

[kvp]

The 25 mm and 33 mm modules could be connected with the unitram track conversion pieces so they could be used together.

 

ps: i think the question was about the width of the loading gauge in case of two H0n tracks 33 mm apart...

[cteno4]

Yeah I was just curious if the 33mm spacing for HOn loading gauge if cars could pass, especially on curves.

 

Jeff

[ToniBabelony]

Not sure about the profile, but with a minimum radius of 300mm, I think overhang amd such isn't much of a thing you have to deal with very much.

 

Anyway, before I make a decision on going for HOn, I'll first have to see until what level of detail I can get to with my new cutter plotter. If the level is sufficient for N, I'll probably postpone the HOn ideas for a while.

[kvp]

According to this:

It could only work for very narrow rolling stock. Even 37 mm would be pushing it. Fremo seem to use 50 mm for H0n. (and they use 25 mm for N, so this seems to be the minimum)

[ToniBabelony]

You know you're dealing with a country that totally ignores any NEM (Fremo) and NMRA guidelines? I have no idea where you're going with these remarks...

[kvp]

That most H0 narrow rolling stock that is not shaped like the infamous toblerone train would have a tough time fitting into the 33 mm double track spacing that the ttrak (alternate) standard uses. At least i think this is the answer to Jeff's original question. Very narrow field railway stock might work though.

[ToniBabelony]

Of the narrow gauge stock here, I've yet to come across anything as wide as in Europe. I guess because of this, I didn't come across any specific loading gauge, except this: http://em007.cside.jp/~s11713-1/kbmc/kikaku_snd.html, which is for a very specific standard anyway.

 

Aside from that, I'll also be checking out the T-Trak in Tokyo project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1013302152090795/ for a potential main focus in the future, as well as an integration of N narrow in this system. In thus regard, I'm thinking of adapting a single track approach with tracks on a different level and a minimum radius of 195mm. :P

[Nick_Burman]

Of the narrow gauge stock here, I've yet to come across anything as wide as in Europe. I guess because of this, I didn't come across any specific loading gauge, except this: http://em007.cside.jp/~s11713-1/kbmc/kikaku_snd.html, which is for a very specific standard anyway.

 

Aside from that, I'll also be checking out the T-Trak in Tokyo project: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1013302152090795/ for a potential main focus in the future, as well as an integration of N narrow in this system. In thus regard, I'm thinking of adapting a single track approach with tracks on a different level and a minimum radius of 195mm. :P

 

Japanese NG is by and large more 24" than 30" gauge sized. That means that most rolling stock about 6'6" wide. Some rolling stock is wider, like the Tochio Railway motors and Igasa Railway railcars, both of them about 7' wide. European NG lines have equipment as wide as 8' across on 30" track.

 

I tried placing my HOn30 equipment (mostly Minitrains) on Kato double track, trains can pass each other without any problems, even on curves.

 

Cheers NB

[ToniBabelony]

Thank you for the explanation on narrow gauge trains Nick! I have no idea bout this very much, as I'm new to it all.

 

Today, I finally got the chance to try out my new Silhouette Portrait. After a trying a few materials, I came to the conclusion that I want to go for styrene cutting. Cardboard sheets may be dirt cheap, but they leave nasty corner finishes, even with a quadruple cut method. It's probably because of the rather simple basic blade that comes with the Portrait and the cheap material, but I think better can be done with 3rd party parts and plastic sheets.

 

Anyway, here are the results from the first successful experimental cut:

 

 

 

Starting small, I tried making small a Dutch labourer house for rural areas. This is 400g/m² cardboard (roughly 0.6mm in thickness) that's from the 100 yen shop. That may explain the thickness and quality, but I mostly have it for experimenting.  The thickness of the window partitions is 1.0mm, which is the minimum that was acceptable so far. This material can well be used for larger projects, but for making these tiny structures it's maybe a bit too coarse. When put together, the cardboard can probably provide enough rigidity for the making of a T-Trak module, so that'll be the next step! 

Edited May 10, 2016 by Kabutoni (a.k.a. Toni Babelony)

[kvp]

This looks great! What do you plan to use for the roof?

[ToniBabelony]

This looks great! What do you plan to use for the roof?

Thanks! I've bought a big sheet (±A3 size) of roof tiles from Mr. Sato (Nanyo Bussan) at the model train market a week ago, so I'll be using that for my future buildings. I'll have to refine the design a bit more and find a way to smoothen the edges. I'll probably use Tamiya putty or actual stone powder clay for that.

[cteno4]

Toni,

 

Hey great you beat me, ive been too snowed to get mine going here saddly.

 

Might look at the scrapbooking paper/cardstock, it's got more binder in it and pressed more and is pretty stiff and does not fray near as much as the cheaper cardboards/chipboards do. Also thinner as well and you can get it colored. Thinner means less fraying and better scale for outer wall opening mouldings and window mullions. If you need bracing then do an additional layer on the inside for interior opening mouldings.

 

3rd party blade holder and nicer vinyl cutting blades will help a lot from all I've read as well. Couple on ebay for like $15-20. Much heavier holder that seems to help cutting.

 

I also remeber some folks hitting their cardstock with some dull cost when they were having fraying issues doing regular cardstock modeling.

 

Have you built many of the sankei models? Take a lookman their joints, they have some very cleaver ones.

 

Can't wait to see the ideas stream forth now! Go Toni go!

 

Jeff

[ToniBabelony]

Thanks Jeff. I have yet to build any Sankei kits, but I do know about their smart design. First however, you need to know how the material works to create the pockets just right. With this cardboard it's a bit hard, as it fans out a little at the cutting line, so you have to calculate a few 0.1mm extra. 

 

I've also been looking at alternative blades, as the standard blade tends to skip about half of a millimeter with my thick cardboard stock. I think, if I get a blade with a big angle, it should resolve this issue. I'm kind of weary about thin material, as it warps when peeling it off the cutting board. Maybe 0.4mm will do fine instead of my current 0.6mm cardboard stock.

 

Anyway, refusing to give up yet on the cheap cardboard, I tried another design I wanted to do with 3D printing. This proved to be too expensive to test, so now I've tried it with cutting. To be honest, I'm very happy about the outcome this time! Apart from the obvious fraying, caused by the blade not getting deep enough, it looks good. I'm thinking about making the windows with another material, like plastic, instead of paper, but the walls can remain as they are.

 

 

This cutting method allows for a wealth of opportunities to make European style row-houses/terrace houses, as they usually come in a uniform design with only minor details distinguishing them from one another. The roof is made from Nanyō Bussan roof tiles, with a folded 'knick' in the middle, as is commonly seen in the Netherlands.

 

A possible next step in this will be to have coloured cardboard for different layers, so there will be no need for painting the base. Let's see what the competing 100 Yen shop (Seria) has to offer as opposed to The Daiso.

[tossedman]

I bought one of these for my Silhouette. Works well. Still need to play more with styrene though.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Graphtec-CB09U-silhouette-cameo-craftrobo-cutting-plotter-blade-holder-10-knife-/181413605762?hash=item2a3d17f182

 

Cheers eh,

 

Todd

[ToniBabelony]

Thank you for the link! I've also been looking into the CB09U upgrade. It's not really a 3rd party upgrade, as Silhouette is owned by Graphtec. I'm interested in seeing how the 60˚ blade will perform.