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Kabutoni

Toni's Model Train Adventures

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Densha

Let's call it Kotokyu (琴平電気急行 --> 琴急)! :P

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Kabutoni

You got a nice layout plan. I could count 3 stations, a mainline, a branchline and a storage shed. I'm trying to find various service patterns for your rolling stock. What routes are usable with the romancecar? I guess it can't take the diverging route on most R140 turnouts.

 

The only siding the Romance car won't be able to access from two directions, due to the double point access, resulting in a C140 60 ̊ curve, is the platform in front of the shed. This track will thus be reserved for local trains only to let the Romance car pass on the opposite track.

 

Other than that, it will be able to access all sidings, as a single C140 30 ̊ or an 'S' formation of C140 30˚ curves is just okay. The Romance car isn't able to go beyond full C245 curves, as the sides of the cars touch each other.

 

 

I found out the hard way that points directly after a curve (in this case Kato #4 after a 315mm curve) are a recipe for problems. Not with everything, but some units just don't like that combination, which is unfortunate as it's one of the most important set of points. Luckily it's not (yet) permanent.

 

Yes, some trains really don't like it, but then you just have to let them run at low speeds through the points. In this case, it's fine, as these points don't lead to mainline tracks.

 

You can always make some custom foamcore boxes to pack modules in to make it as compact as possible, or a bank of wall shelves (the kind tha have rails bolted to the wall) that the modules can live on for display when not running! Go back and look at what Ulrich did with his modules. You could sort of so a hybrid modular and sectional to get some interesting bits and just standard module scenery and longer running bits. Couple of folding tables or on the floor. Maybe the custom boxes could be like 10" high to allow for scenery and then you sit the modules on top of the boxes to raise them off the floor.

 

I agree that having the hobby slab in tight quarters can cause issues. Plus breaking the layout up into sections you can work on one section on the bench easily in a smaller space than doing it on the whole slab all the time.

 

http://japanrailmodelers.org/pages/modelingjapan/minimodules.html

 

Jeff

 

Yes, it's a good solution, but also maybe a bit of a too big idea to make them as standalone modules like the ones Ulrich did. It will take a loooot of good planning to get this done right and fitting, because the tracks don't have nice 90˚ angles and are mostly on grades when not being a station.

 

I think separating the grades from the flat stations is a good starting point. Surround all the tracks with fences to mask the separation from the scenic modules that will be sandwiched in between, and it will be a good concept to plan. It'll probably become something like a puzzle with two different levels. Not too complicated, but it still needs planning.

 

Because all modules will be relatively small, they can be made all out of foamcore like you suggested! Light-weight, easy to work with, easy to wire (maybe create some simple system of Tomix connectors to connect all modules electrically for illuminating buildings as well) and easy to create high-detail scenery without the fear of damaging other parts. It's also possible to work on them in stages as my finances allow to. It's a great idea! :D

 

Let's call it Kotokyu (琴平電気急行 --> 琴急)! :P

 

You know, I'll be repainting all trains in the end to a different painting scheme. ;) Realistically seen, all of the rolling stock shown on my pictures could have been sold to a different Japanese local company if you ignore the fact they have been exported and/or scrapped.

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Kabutoni

A little trial for the modular build of the proposed concept. This is the big branch station. The height of these modules is about 3cm and will be surrounded with fences and flocks to separate the ROW and create a visual illusion to mask the gaps of the modules.

 

post-188-0-44166900-1423548023_thumb.jpgpost-188-0-49999100-1423548031_thumb.jpgpost-188-0-84769400-1423548035_thumb.jpg

 

The brown paper on the top can be taken off to reveal a glued surface, so the blue tape will be removed eventually.

 

I really like this approach! Now, where can I hide it? xD

Edited by Toni Babelony

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Kabutoni

I fixed some of the track on the middle station modules and electrified four of the six points that are to be electrified. This in order to do some test runs on the grades and electrical connections.

 

post-188-0-49170000-1423715554_thumb.jpg

 

Now, there is no 2nd track on the upper station, no double crossing on the lower station (ignore the point there) and no point for the depot tracks yet. Also, yes. The Romance Car will run in a 3-car shortened form.

 

The building plan is first to create the middle and lower station modules and the mainline grade modules before starting on the upper station and central scenery parts.

 

Things to be bought somewhere this or next month:

- Double crossing N-PX280 (1247);

- Mini-point left handed N-PL140-30 (1232);

- Point motor (0107);

 

Maaaaybe, I can find the point motors in a 2nd hand shop, maybe I still have some laying around at a friends'. It's not the highest priority at the moment as I'm not in a hurry.

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railsquid

Yes, some trains really don't like it, but then you just have to let them run at low speeds through the points. In this case, it's fine, as these points don't lead to mainline tracks.

 

 

Speed is not the problem. Some stuff is fine at high speeds and fails at low speeds, while other trains are the other way round. In the other direction there's a short straight section (Kato -> Tomix converter track) before the points, which has had no derailments ever. Anyway I'll be stretching the layout, so the whole issue should be moot.

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Kabutoni

After a bit of thinking, I have decided to go for the wide-rail option on the curves and add the inclines on the bottom. It's a bit similar to the straight pieces, but with the plus that I don't have to cut the relatively complicated curves out of foamcore board. Another plus is that I can choose to go for canted tracks as well as double track pieces. The downside is that I will have to increase the radius from C243 and C280 to C280 and C317 (there are no wide rail C243 pieces), but because this will be a non-permanent setup, it's a moot argument. xD

 

post-188-0-53519600-1423973664_thumb.png

 

I think this will decrease the space needed for storage significantly, as well as simplify the building process.

 

Speed is not the problem. Some stuff is fine at high speeds and fails at low speeds, while other trains are the other way round. In the other direction there's a short straight section (Kato -> Tomix converter track) before the points, which has had no derailments ever. Anyway I'll be stretching the layout, so the whole issue should be moot.

 

I see, I have no idea why that happens. Maybe the geometry of the Kato points don't allow the finer flanges on some wheels to pass freely... Tomix always has the option to add curved points ;)

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kvp

 

I think this will decrease the space needed for storage significantly, as well as simplify the building process.

Unless you get rid of the old tracks this will increase the amount of track you own and the space needed to store it. Also you need some padding under the wide tracks to get them to the same height as the station and even more padding for the top station and it's ramp (including the small bridge over the station below).

 

 

I see, I have no idea why that happens. 

According to my mesurements it's the combination of the weight of the cars, the axle distance in a bogie, the bogie distances and the coupler type and distance from the nearest bogie center. Trains behave differently with a car in a push or pull configuration and the position of the car bodies relatively to each other also matters, both horizontally and vertically. Add the speed and weight dependent momemtum forces to this equation. The idea is that the rails have to be able to exert enough horizontal force on the wheels that the non straight pushing or pulling vector transmitted through couplings, car bodies and bogies and the car's own weight and momentum can be deflected in a way that allows movement but the wheels remain on the tracks. Usually derailment problems occur when a wheel is lifted or allowed to ride up on the rails or when the position of a wheel flange allows the wheel to ride up or split a point or guard rail. The latter is usually caused by unfortunate alignement of the bogie or the car relative to the ideal position and is a result of tolerances allowed in the standards for the wheel/rail sizes that are required for normal operation. You should also check the train for high friction moving parts, like stuck couplings and in many cases the trains could be operating out of their curve or slope design range, with wheels scraping body mounted parts or bogies getting jammed by a too high rotation or even the car edges colliding with each other. Sometimes these problems can go unnoticed if the train is driven by slow or fast enough to get it over the problem spots, but not noticing it doesn't mean the problem is not there.

 

ps: Common solutions can include more weight, slower top speed, modified couplers and bogies. For example i had some problems with a certain Tomytec Iida line set, where the solution was to find the right distance between the two cars that didn't cause them to hit each other in S curves, but the coupler distance is still short enough to avoid lifting one of the bogies out and to decrease the top speed and increase the weight of the cars, so on turnouts the unusually large axle distance in the bogies won't cause the wheels to ride up on or to split the points. Since these cars are assemble yourself, it was possible to change all parameters and use a short-long coupler combination. The same trick had to be used on one of my british 3rd rail emus to get smaller car distances while still allowing the train to run through turnouts. Side effect is that these trains are now fixed sets and must operate with cars in the exact same order to work correctly.

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Kabutoni

Unless you get rid of the old tracks this will increase the amount of track you own and the space needed to store it. Also you need some padding under the wide tracks to get them to the same height as the station and even more padding for the top station and it's ramp (including the small bridge over the station below).

 

I was pointing to the storage space needed for the layout, not my stock in general. I don't really care about that so much.

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Kabutoni

I've added the newly bought mini-point and 'fixed' all rails to the base. It's starting to look quite nice altogether.

 

post-188-0-06910600-1424055343_thumb.jpg

 

Now, I wanted to compare the size of the trains that were going to run in this layout a little bit with the rest of my rolling stock, which is generally 18m in car length (Keisei, Keikyū and Hokusō). So, I whipped out a train I had forgotten about, my Meitetsu 3500! My only off-the-shelf finished Greenmax product. I have no idea why I have this train, but I always had a thing going for Meitetsu.

 

Anyway, the Meitetsu train has an 18m car length and this is immediately visible when you put it next to 12.5m (Romance car middle car), 15m (old style EMU), 16m (2-car commuter trains) length cars! It looks massive compared to those short trains!

 

post-188-0-45806100-1424055346_thumb.jpgpost-188-0-05965800-1424055350_thumb.jpgpost-188-0-95199800-1424055352_thumb.jpg

 

Yep. I'm afraid trains will not go over 16m in length on this layout. It would look too silly. That said, I should look into those 15m Keihan Ōtsu line trains...

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Densha

Looks nice! Interesting that you chose to cut the base plates in the shape of the tracks rather than leave a bit of space for scenery. But shows that you really don't need a lot of space for something fun. Meanwhile I still haven't achieved anything. :P

 

Haha, now you're also enchanted by the Otsu lines trains? ;)

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railsquid

Haha, now you're also enchanted by the Otsu lines trains? ;)

 

The Keihan 800? Delightful little train, I've even worked out a way of getting some on-street running for it. When I get my layout out of the planning stage, that is...

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Densha

Both the Keihan Keishin Line (where the 800 series now runs on) and the Keihan Ishiyama-Sakamoto Line are part of the so-called 'Otsu Lines', of which Otsu is the station where you can transfer between both lines.

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kvp

What do you think about using Tomytec 12m cars? You can make a decent sized train from them and still fit the platforms.

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katoftw

Both the Keihan Keishin Line (where the 800 series now runs on) and the Keihan Ishiyama-Sakamoto Line are part of the so-called 'Otsu Lines', of which Otsu is the station where you can transfer between both lines.

You mean Hamaotsu. Ostu Station is on the JR Tokaido Main Line.

 

I actually watch the Train Cruise EP9 last night. So it was fresh in my mind. The traveller started in Kyoto, transferred at Yamashina for Keishin Line. Got off at Hamaostu and walked around a little. Then went up to Sakamoto and jumped on the cable car and visited Hieizen Enryaku-Ji.

 

Back down the hill and got off with from students at Zeze. Ate massive served meals and on a JR train to Kusatus Station to transfer to the Omi Electric Railway nickanemd the Omigachakon. But that last bit isn't anything to do with Otsu.

 

I took attention and also took note as I plan on doing a similar trip when I return to Japan. Will omit the Omi Railway though to save time. As would like to visit Hikone and Nagahama also. And complete a full loop around Lake Biwako.

 

Anyways, it be nice to see a layout with the wrapped 600s and the 800s running around. It would be a nice layout with the lake and temples added in.

Edited by katoftw

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Kabutoni

Gah. You mention Keihan Ōtsu line trains once and the crows come flying in xD

 

Looks nice! Interesting that you chose to cut the base plates in the shape of the tracks rather than leave a bit of space for scenery. But shows that you really don't need a lot of space for something fun. Meanwhile I still haven't achieved anything. :P

 

Haha, now you're also enchanted by the Otsu lines trains? ;)

 

I did this mainly to be able to focus on scenery later, as well as be able to make multiple modules for the same spot to be able to change scenery. Maybe an old-timey setting and a contemporary setting or something like that.

 

The Keihan 800? Delightful little train, I've even worked out a way of getting some on-street running for it. When I get my layout out of the planning stage, that is...

 

As much I'd like a 800 on this layout, it will not work, as the maximum train length is two-cars (three-cars for the Romance car). The 800 is a 16.5m train as well, so just too big to allow it on the layout. I'm very tempted to drop the 16m max. rule, as the Romance car's front cars are actually 16.3m long and I also am pretty fond of the two-car Nankai Zoom-Car trains (17m). Especially after seeing what this chap has done with this one, they look really tempting: http://www4.hp-ez.com/hp/yantetuworld/page29/bid-243077 

 

What do you think about using Tomytec 12m cars? You can make a decent sized train from them and still fit the platforms.

 

If I wanted 'decent' sized trains, I'd have gone for four-car B-train shorty trains. I think a single or two-car train is already decent sized for this project.

 

Anyways, it be nice to see a layout with the wrapped 600s and the 800s running around. It would be a nice layout with the lake and temples added in.

 

Talking about wrapping, I kind of want to be able to print decals or stickers (probably less complicated) either at home with a printer that can do that (I need to buy one anyway some day) or outsource it to a firm that has the ability to do so. I need car numbers, logos and such, as well as maybe an idea to create a 'painted train' with my own design.

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Kabutoni

Today I modified my modules a bit so that they fit in a standard cardboard moving carton. They're now roughly A4-sized and thus easier to store. It was merely cutting 70mm off the big one and pasting that part to the shorter half.

 

post-188-0-26969500-1424330523_thumb.jpg

 

Next to that, I've been puzzling and cutting up a Tomytec Tetsudo Collection storage bookcase to be able to fit in all the rolling stock I currently have for this project. All trains, except the unpainted car are powered. The small black engine is a Bandai B-train Jyōshin DEKI 1 (actually a little bit longer than the prototype) that will run some MOW and maybe some small freight cars.

 

post-188-0-73010800-1424330528_thumb.jpg

 

I think, when all is done and I have a full set of rolling stock, I will probably have just two cases of trains for this layout. Maybe, I can make this fit into two boxes and make it portable for shows or to play around with at friends. I dunno. We'll see.

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cteno4

Kudos Toni, getting three birds with one stone!

 

Jeff

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Kabutoni

Today I realised that I have another mini-point lying around, so I could shorten the layout by 70mm. Now I only need a double crossing, an extra point motor or two, and the optional extra points (not motorised) for some sidings and the layout is basically completed.

 

The lower station is very tight for the Romance Car now, but I think it's fine for its purpose, as it will be obscured as an underground station.

 

post-188-0-90004000-1424663438_thumb.jpgpost-188-0-76141100-1424663443_thumb.jpgpost-188-0-97939400-1424663448_thumb.jpg

 

Yes, I also have some Enoden and Meitetsu interurbans lying around for things.

 

Now I have to come up with a company name, track layout (find some place in the neighbourhood where it would seem realistic xD), standard livery, logo, etc. Yeeeeah. Projects! :D

Edited by Toni Babelony

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katoftw

I didn't know Modemo made viaduct supports?

 

Great little play around layout.  I notice 3 generations of Tomix track there.  Will to switching it all to 1 style?  I'm guessing normal grey ballast version since you are using C140 points?

Edited by katoftw

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Kabutoni

I didn't know Modemo made viaduct supports?

 

It's all those damn small boxes are good for! xD

 

Great little play around layout.  I notice 3 generations of Tomix track there.  Will to switching it all to 1 style?  I'm guessing normal grey ballast version since you are using C140 points?

 

The oldest generation will go, as it's the C245, which will be replaced with C280 and C280/C317 combined wide tracks or bridge elements (which ironically will lead into tunnels). The upside of these tracks is that the power connectors can be put underneath the tracks, of which I'm a big fan. The tracks will eventually be spray painted brown once I've reached the ballasting stage, as I don't like the non-uniform colouring of the original ballast.

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Kabutoni

Slow and steady.

 

post-188-0-88062100-1424762032_thumb.jpg

 

Today, I made the first ramp from the middle station to the lower station from some new foam core board. Now, I said I would make the ramps of wide-rail or bridge tracks, but because I'm on a tight budget and will repaint the ballast anyway, the colour doesn't really matter. Maybe even the brown tracks can indicate older tracks and the grey ones an updated/new double track section. Later, retaining walls will be added to this part, as these sections lead into a tunnel.

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Kabutoni

Time to let the glue dry.

 

post-188-0-79681300-1424832145_thumb.jpg

 

The bottom part is mostly finished, sans the double crossing. I'll buy that next week perhaps. It's looking pretty snappy, there are some issues with the connections here and there, but overall the running is smooth. I think I'll start with the upper station once I have collected a few more points, because -damn, I need more sidings and a possible connection beyond this layout!

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Kabutoni

Yeeeeah! Acquired a double crossover at the TamTam's today! I also remade the double-track section, since the geometry of my previously cut parts wasn't that good (the old brown tracks seem to have had quite a rough life). Now, I forgot to buy more power connectors for the now isolated tracks, so I have to go back and get some... Durrr...

 

post-188-0-64958500-1425537631_thumb.jpgpost-188-0-09807500-1425537636_thumb.jpgpost-188-0-43002900-1425537639_thumb.jpg

 

Anyway, the main track is finished and quite ready to go to the next phase, but I still am kind-of looking into expanding the plan a bit more with some additional turnouts on the upper station.

 

I've also peeked a bit at getting one or two Keihan 600s from Tomytec, but they just don't attract me enough to spend money on them. I'd rather spend that amount on getting a few more Kotoden 700 types and/or one more Ltd. Express/Romance Car type train for that.

Edited by Toni Babelony
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mrp

Very nice.

 
And additional turnouts???  Are you secretly going for a new all-time record points-to-track ratio?  And if so, does the new acquisition count as one or four?  :)
 
By the way, if that is the new set of points in the photos, I think it’s called a “double crossover”.  Aren’t the “double slip” points the Tomix 1245 and 1246?  I wanted to give those a try myself, but I haven’t seen them available anywhere for ages.

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Martijn Meerts

Toni still has a lot of Dutch in him, the Dutch railroads love to use turnouts all over the place, just have a look at Utrecht central station ;)

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