Sort of club for Dutch/German/Belgian members?

[ToniBabelony]

Also, any specific reason you're selling the trains other than moving to Japan?

 

I want to get rid of my personal belongings as much as possible, to save space where things need to be stowed away. Also, the extra cash will come in very handy for me ;)

[Densha]

How's the circumstances now Toni? As the end of the year (and with that you leaving to Japan) is coming closer, perhaps we should set a date for a meeting?

[Martijn Meerts]

So, Densha, 200系 and myself went to Eurospoor 2013 in Utrecht last weekend. As expected it wasn't really anything special. Mainly the very typical modular layouts that the clubs in The Netherlands build. There were some really nice British layouts, as well as some lovely American N-scale. There was also a tiny little bit of Japanese of which I think Densha took about 5000 pictures ;)

 

Either way, it got us talking a bit again about doing t-trak and visiting some shows with them. Started drawing up some plans to send to a lasercutting service for testing. Don't have any specific plans for a layout just yet, and I guess with t-trak modules you don't really need one either ;) I do know there'll be some shinkansen action as well, and lots of painted trains/trams action.

 

Considering Toni now lives in the Land of Far Away (from where I am anyways), we're down 1 member. Also, Ben seems to have gotten really busy for the moment, so that leaves 3 of us for now, but we're all 3 busy with work/education it seems. Progress is likely going to be slow :)

 

Of course, I usually dislike the woodwork/frame building the most, so if a good part of the woodcutting can be done using a lasercutting service, that's a major advantage, and might actually speed up my progress.

[Densha]

Lol. Yeah it was fun. The American and British layouts were done very well. I'm not really used to taking indoor photos so I have only maybe a dozen or something that look okay-ish. I'll post them when I have some more time on my hands.

Oh well we'll just run trams and Shinkansen on one track. They ran Enoden with Eurostar on a layout at Eurospoor so who cares. ;)

Lasercut modules would certainly speed it up, I'm hesitant to start because I fail at woodworking.

[JR 500系]

Hey not fair... 

 

It's great to have friends of the same interest in the same place .... So much to do and chat about... 

[Martijn Meerts]

Well.. Somewhat in the same place anyway... We don't exactly live close to each other, so there's no weekly or even monthly meetings to run trains. In fact, if we manage to get around to finishing modules and go to shows with them, those shows are likely the only times we'll be hooking up all the modules :)

[Densha]

if we manage to get around to finishing modules

You mean if we ever manage to start working on the modules. :P

[Martijn Meerts]

Well, I did start on some.. Or at least, I bought the necessary Unitrack for 2 double-track modules ;)

 

Actually, I pretty much finished a schematic to send to the lasercutter now. Just needs a little fine-tuning really, and then I'll be sending it off to them for some feedback on whether everything is done right. The schematic has all the parts for 3 modules, a standard 308x200, a 308x250 with backdrop and a small bridge module. If I submit that today or tomorrow, I should get the cut pieces sometime early next week.

[cteno4]

Martijn,

 

the backdrops are something i would suggest doing as a separate piece. for some layouts is just not needed and also unless done well they can be a really really bad eyesore that can take away from the module's scenery. one or two bad ones in a run can really distract. they actually can just be on foam core or even poster board and then velcroed to the back wall of the module. 

 

they are also a pain in storage unless you try the trick of using them to flip one on top of another and use the backdrops as side walls, but then that causes a bunch of other issues...

 

also they will cost a lot of money if lasercut and out of the good wood they use.

 

i would suggest doing all 4 walls if with the thin lasercut ply to keep things from potentially sagging eventually.

 

will be great to see your efforts on this, really fun and could make some sharp looking modules as that ply is usually nice stuff and the finger joints could actually look quite nice!

 

jeff

Edited October 31, 2013 by cteno4

[Martijn Meerts]

I've pretty much finished my test schematic, which does include the module with the backdrop thingy. If a backdrop doesn't work I can just cut it with some contours of a hill and use that as a base for some wire mesh to form the rest of the hill. Right now it's really just to test things and see if my schematics convert to their laser cutter without too many issues.

 

I'm always a bit on the fence with backdrops in general. They can add a lot to a layout, but if done bad they really can destroy on otherwise perfect layout. I usually don't like backdrops on small modules like t-trak, but we'll see. I'm not expecting perfect results right away :)

[Martijn Meerts]

Send in my first design late last night, and just got a price indication back from them. It's a bit more expensive than I expected, but that's in large part due to the 6mm ply which is considerably slower to cut, as well as the fact that the bridge modules consists of a good number of individual parts that need to be cut. I think I'm going to do a test on some 3mm ply as well at some point.

 

On the 6mm ply, it's around 30-35 euro per module, including the material and shipping cost.

[Densha]

Whoa, that's pretty expensive. I didn't expect such prices. For a simple module from wood cut by a shop it costs 10 euro max.

[Martijn Meerts]

A woodshop can't cut it like the lasercutter does though, so to build something like the bridge module in the way I designed it, you'll be spending a lot of time cutting it yourself. I'm thinking 3mm ply with some support should be just fine as well for small modules like t-trak though. I've asked them what the price difference would be if I'd have gone with 3mm ply, so will be interesting to see.

 

At this point though, I'd rather spend more money and get modules that go together quick and easy, rather than use up the little spare time I have getting annoyed because I suck at woodworking ;)

 

Also, considering this is a test, it's obviously more expensive because of the whole time spent setting up the lasercutter. If you get say 3 sheets of ply cut in the same run, price per module will go down quite a bit.

[cteno4]

Martijn,

 

hmm not cheap, but like you say it will be cut perfectly! paying a shop person to cut them out on a table saw would cost some euros.

 

the 3mm should work. we use 4.5mm here for our big jrm layout modules and those have held up well and they have 50x30cm span areas in the framework with no support and no real sagging. so for ttrak even double wide no problems. but could pop in a few little cross supports, especially on the double wide modules and i dont think you will have any sagging problems the more i think on this.

 

the finger joints are really going to help make this all rigid, especially if you do all 4 walls. 3mm should do fine.

 

wonder how the other chap's have come out in was it england?

 

having them cut at a shop unless its a good wood shop will get you probably pretty crude and variable results. Ive cut a lot of these out and it takes a table saw and patience and care to get them cut out well on a table saw that is decently accurate. so easy to flop a few mm and really screw things up!

 

when there were plastic shrink moulded bases (with ply tops) here in the states for a while they were around $25 shipped i think. even the simple wood kits are killer as the shipping costs get very high fast due to weight.

 

folks have made them out of foam core and they hold up reasonably well. ultraboard (styrene faced foam core) would be the ultimate in light weight and strength, but would require some sort of cover for the front face edge to make really pretty. but some wood veneer would work well for that. the ultraboard can be cut by lasercutter but many places dont cut styrene as you have to have a really good exhaust system and then some places want additional treatment to the vent air for the fumes.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

I think I could get it done cheaper at a different place, but this one seems to have good service as well, which to me is important. They also have a lot of materials in stock and actually get the higher quality plywood, so you can be fairly certain it's good stuff unlike the junk the local hardware store here sells ;)

 

3mm plywood would take about half the time for cutting, and they charge for the actual cutting time. To cut my design from 6mm ply takes about 51 minutes, on 3mm ply it would be closer to 30 minutes. They charge 1 euro per minute the laser is powered on. Obviously, the 3mm ply itself is also cheaper, but the initial cost and shipping pretty much remains the same. I'm guessing for 3mm ply on standard straight modules you'd end up at around 20-25 euro per module.

 

I have to say though, I did add some engraving lines/surfaces which I could've skipped and which probably would've saved quite a few minutes, but I really just wanted to test a variety if things to see how it works and what's possible.

 

I should get the various bits and pieces early next week, and if everything fits I'll probably end up making another schematic for 3mm ply.

 

I did find some modules for sale online for 15 dollar, but those were vary basic straight modules, and looked like it was your standaard quality ply. Not to mention having modules shipped from the US to The Netherlands isn't the most economical ;)

[Martijn Meerts]

So, this is the file I sent to be lasercut. As you can see, there are a lot of things that aren't needed :)

 

The logo's are just there for pretty-ness, but it'd probably be better to have a template lasercut and use that to spray the logo on, will probably look better too :)

 

The various bits also have a lot more finger joints than necessary, especially when using 6mm ply.

 

Using 3mm ply and optimising the designs a bit, I should be able to fit 4 standard 308x200 modules on 1 sheet of ply, which should help cut cost quite a lot, hopefully down to the 20-ish euro per module region.

 

 

I'm rather enjoying testing this, and I'm already toying with the idea to do a model of the Tokyo Station building and having the whole thing lasercut, although I'm not looking forward to seeing the price on that ;) Of course, I'd need something like blueprints or at least measurements of the actual station before I can even start on that. I'd definitely model it in it's original state though.

[cteno4]

Martijn,

 

very cool! i see you have a little bridge module in there. looks like a lot of bits to test ideas. very useful and smart!

 

the finger joints will look pretty once put together. it will be interesting to see the look of the lasered edge. might want to think about making the finger joints like 0.5-1mm higher and then block sanding the ends of the fingers off to get uber smooth joint and non burned edge. will be interesting to see what the edges look like on thicker plys, ive only seen it on very thin stuff and there a little brown black. these should look very pretty just sealed well with some varnish or stained a nice color. if its birch ply you can also do a lot of interesting wood dyes to get some great colors out of the birch and bring out the grain well. something much more attractive than painting them black! its amazing how a nicely done facing is such a better frame than black paint. nicely finished wood is something that the eye notices and likes then puts aside and it becomes the proper visual frame.

 

i do have this book of the 1/500 scale tokyo station

 

http://www.hlj.com/product/SHU10092/Boo

 

unfortunately looks like oop now. but if you ever get really going on the idea i could scan the whole thing for you to work from. would be pretty cool to laser cut the walls and you could even etch the brick texture (that would cost some!) or cut out of brick textured styrene. then 3D print windows as those are pretty standard shaped, but dont know how well mullions could be 3D printed in the liquid system where you get the best quality. i know more standard 1/4" and 1/8" scale architectural models can lasercut windows well with mullions and doing some etching. some of the sankei have some pretty small mullions but harder to get sill relief etc with laser cutting.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

There is a little bridge module in there yes, just couldn't resist :) I tried to think of various things I'd need building all the modules, and added all that to my test sheet. The package has already been sent and should be arriving tomorrow. They can get things done real quick, and they're very friendly judging by the email exchange I've had with them.

 

All their plywood is high quality birch, guaranteed to be fault-free on 1 side, and about 99% fault-free on the other side. For regular plywood they have 3, 4 and 6mm available, and they also have the thin stuff often used for RC planes which is 0.6, 1 and 2mm. (They also do cardboard, card stock, perspex, and even glass, ceramics and rubber (rubber could be cool to make molds ;))

 

If I'm going with something other than black for the modules, I'll likely want a fairly typical/traditional Japanese finish, although it should of course not draw all attention away from the scenery.

 

 

I know you have the 1:500 scale Tokyo Station, I had a quick look at it when I was in Washington :) If you could perhaps do a 1:1 scan of the main footprint and possibly 1 wall with windows and/or doorway, that'd already help me get an idea of the size I'm looking at. I know the building would be well over 2 meters in length, but considering my main station will be able to hold 16-car shinkansen, that should fit. Knowing the size would also be beneficial designing the track plan for the station of course. I do have some rough ideas, but nothing set in stone yet. The newly restored station looks fantastic though.

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/The_night_view_of_Tokyo_station.JPG

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2849/9277165965_84aeddef59_o.jpg

 

That 2nd picture looks almost like it's straight from the Appleseed anime :)

[cteno4]

Nicely finished wood on a frame piece like thus does not distract from scenes, just the opposite it frames the scene nicely, stopping the eye pleasantly and not falling off into dead negative space where the eye wants to make sense of the negative space and thus gets distracted. This is an age old design concept. For some odd reason model railroaders a long time back got the idea that using black around the edge of a layout somehow is the only way not to compete with their scenes. It's just not good design. Sorry, ive been doing this for 25 years with exhibit work and had this hammered into me.

 

Good case in point look at really nicely designed museum case work and you will see nice wood work and finishes cleanly and not gaudily done. The items in the cases are nicely framed. Look at trade show stuff and you will see a lot of use of black formicas and finishes and your eye is going all over the place away from what is on display. There are instances when using black on the edges makes sense to let an item float, but this usually isn't one of them.

 

Sounds like a quality company of work with!

 

Ill get on scanning some pages for you.

 

Looking forward to Picts!

 

Jeff

Edited November 5, 2013 by cteno4

[Martijn Meerts]

I usually like it when the modules are painted black, but on the other hand, that's pretty much all I've ever seen, so I might just be used to it. I'm definitely going to look into other wood finishing though, because I do like seeing wood grain, and who knows, it might look much better.

 

Another option could be to paint layers of various types of soil, so it looks like you dug out the module from the ground. Could add sewage pipes and all that too, but I'm fairly certain that draws WAY too much attention ;)

 

 

Will be good with those scans, so I can do a crude cardboard mockup of the station and get an idea of the actual size. I fear it may be quite big, and I'll need to adjust the track plan quite extensively.

[cteno4]

yeah all you usually see is black or very badly done wood.

 

its the frame idea. its something to stop the eye at the edge of the scene and nudge it back into the scene gently. wood grain is nice as its something that the mind is just so use to it does not distract. solid color can be jarring (and every color is the ugly color to someone) and create a very strong negative space which the eye can fall into and follow. really is something on a very subjective, subconscious level.

 

at times the negative space can make a scene float, but usually modular and home layouts are too large for this and you are too close to them. to make things float the whole negative space needs to be seen in a single field of view. train folks are always citing black use with stage design, but there you are back further and taking the scene in in a single field of view.

 

also nicely finished wood gets you a very big subjective/subconscious high quality thumbs up and its also very warm and human and draws us in. metal and solid colored surfaces can push away and be very cold. again this is something that you dont really usually notice on a conscious level. i spend a lot of time in places watching the public interacting with exhibits and all the bits and pieces. wood draws folks in. look at the apple store, now the top of the retail pyramid for holding customers and getting them to drop big bucks. those tables are very nicely done wood grain finish. perfect to be a nice frame to the items sitting on top of them. both the table and products have those design elements that draw folks in on a very intuitive/subjective/subconscious level, both being very touchable and just watch folks, they are almost sexual in how they caress those products. even though the apple products are metal, they have been very careful to pay attention to curves and lines that are very touchable and always working on very subtle textures to the metal as well. when ever you tap into the subjective/subconscious you get a much more universal result from your audience so so key in the up front presentation things -- it sets the stage for the objective/conscious interaction.

 

ill pull the book out and pull out the staples and start scanning. would be fun to see a full scale mock up! only problem is you really need to be able to see both sides as your tracks would need to be in the rear. i guess you could just do the front side and have some tracks behind and compress that area for not direct viewing.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

I need to experiment with it a bit, might end up using wood stain, something I've always rather liked the look of. I may end up asking for some advice there soon-ish.

 

Anyway, the package arrived today, I was expecting a box with the various cut out pieces, but they actually sent the entire plywood sheet with all the cut parts held into place with some masking tape. The various bits fit almost perfectly, which meant I spent about 5 minutes per module getting all the pieces out of the plywood sheet, and assembling them. I used bits of masking tape to temporarily hold them together, and they're ridiculously strong already. Once glued I think you can easily stand on them without breaking them :)

 

All in all, I'm very happy with the quality, and even at this price it's well worth it. The time saved on cutting, fitting, adjusting and sanding is worth way more than the extra euro's spent per module.

 

 

Image 001:

The package as it arrived. It's really just the plywood sheet sandwiched between 2 sturdy cardboard sheets. The red tape is duct tape, which, as we all know, is the best material to not only fix just about everything, but also protect things ;)

 

Image 002:

The rear of the plywood sheet.

 

Image 003:

The front of the plywood sheet with the masking tape holding everything in place.

 

Image 004:

Removed the bits for the bridge module. It looks sort of like a puzzle =)

 

Image 005:

The bridge module assembled. The diagonal spaces should of course be filled using some wire mesh and plaster cloth etc.

 

Image 006:

Non essential, and adds additional cost, but I really love the logo, and I'm fairly certain I'll include it on the other modules I'll get lasercut ;)

[Martijn Meerts]

Image 007:

Testing some track on the bridge module. The holes for the wires are a bit too small, so something to think about for the next design.

 

Image 008:

The 3 modules 'connected'.

 

Image 009:

The module with built-in backdrop. Doesn't look too bad, but I'll probably cut the backdrop to serve as a base for fastening wire mesh for a hill/slope.

 

Image 010:

The rear of the modules, with a large hole so you can reach all the wires and everything. In the next badge I'll probable round off the corners a little.

 

Image 011:

The extra deep (250mm instead of 200mm) module. The slot in the side is to pass wiring through.

 

[cteno4]

Martijn,

 

really nice! im betting the 3mm will work well on these. maybe just glue in one 2cm wide brace in the center.

 

the tabs will need to get sanded if you want to finish it, i expect that alternating light/dark would really shout with a line of them!

 

maybe i should talk to my friend in california to see if he wants to go into business making these suckers with his laser cutter. his i think is only like 0.6m square cutting deck though. man i wish laser cutters were dropping in price like 3d printers!

 

great job!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

They need some sanding anyway, some of the tabs stick out just a tiny little bit. Definitely need to try 3mm as well, even without an additional brace it should be sturdy enough, but might as well add a brace in there.

 

This place can cut up to 90 * 60 cm, so can even cut double-length module to make a longer bridge. Pretty sure their cutter isn't cheap though ;)