Long train vs shorter trains; Looks and practicality

[David]

As usual I'm in a bit of a bind over my direction in collecting trains for an eventual big layout when I have the space. I thought I had finally got it right when I settled on Tokyo commuter trains, exclusively Kato's DCC ready modern designs (E231, E217, E233, E251 and 209-500), and preferably around a corridor around Ueno to Tokyo station.

 

 

[smg id=1338]

 

So far my collection consists of complete 10-car sets for Urban and Downtown Joban (E531 and E231-0), Keihin-Tohoku E233-1000 and Shonan colored E231-1000, for a total of 4 10-car sets.

 

But running them on my plate track setup (a 5' station for 11-car trains and about 17' of mainline track with a long bridge in the middle) and doing some planning I'm finding myself wondering if I would have been better off to have sought the 5-car attachment formations from the start. These would not only reduce the track space used by stations (and slightly reduce the station cost), but also increase the perceived amount of travel between stations. With 10-car trains they only visually travel 3 or 4 train lengths between stations. The 5/6-car formation would also make it viable to create a double platform station - a station where trains can stop at 2 points along a longer platform. Such a station for 2 6-car trains with #4 switches on either end (to allow trains to pass without stopping) and a double crossover in the middle (to allow a train to enter/leave even if the other end of the platform is occupied) would occupy about 13'. It would also have a long enough platform to accomidate a single 15-car full formation.

 

From a visual perspective watching these trains on the plate track, while initially impressive, seem to ponder along on because of the long length. My interest in trains is largely derived from Toronto's urban traction and not from big long cross country trains. A 5-car formation would more closely match the length of Toronto's subways (if an N scale model of the LRT existed, even Vancouver's version, I'd buy it in a heartbeat).

 

Any thoughts?

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I like to run as long a train as space will realistically support. That said, I do find that a full station; i.e. one that can accomodate a 15-car set, is not necessarily the best use of space. I like stations; I like the operational and visual interest they provide a layout. My compromise is only to portray part of the station platform...the rest being underground, or beneath a large building. This is much easier to convey convincingly in an urban set up, however I have a number of plans that allow full-length trains on a layout of about 10' to 12' in length. You only need about 5-cars worth of platform...the rest of the train is hidden.

 

Of course a terminus provides a different set of issues; however not completely insurmountable...

[Nick_Burman]

My Japanese modelling is mainly private rural/branchline in nature, so smaller trains prevail. Also smaller trains tend to look better in smaller layouts, which is what I can afford now.

 

 

Cheers NB

[Mudkip Orange]

Pick the longest typical train for what you're modeling and go with that.

[inobu]

I ran into the same dilemma and could not understand where I went wrong after everything was put in place (laying the track).  

 

The mental image that we reference in designing our layout is not to scale. Our thoughts are mere snap shots of reality which is misleading. The reality is 1 mile is 33 feet (1.6 kilometer = 11 meters). Placing a station in the middle of 33 feet gives you roughly .5 miles in both directions which is a reasonable prototypical view. N Scale is a perspective view of 300 to 400 feet in the air.

 

I was trying to model a yard in 11 feet and that was not going to happen. Mentally it looked feasible but reality slapped me in the face and handed me a tape measure hence my figures above. I took my layout apart and will rebuild it with at lease 3/4 of a mile (24') to create the layout I envisioned.

 

If you are a stickler for rendering to scale then you have to make a decision on what you want to present to the viewer and how close or should I say how far from prototypical distances will be acceptable to you.

 

I think you are foreseeing the same issue. The number of stations that you want to present and the thought of reasonable distances required is not matching up. You are trying to identify you trade offs. Which leads to what Claude's posted. Your layout is a 3D photo.

 

The game is how to trick the viewer in seeing more or less than what is really there. The insertion of distance devices (mountains, fields, cluster of trees) can give the illusion of distance traveled or break the viewers distance perception.

 

The key is achieving an acceptable balance of space, scenery and functionality.    

 

Ueno or Akihabara may be your best choice in that they can represent the bulk of your lines routes.

 

If you are going to the big layout then keep going and prepare for it.    

 

Inobu

 

     

 

 

[David]

I should mention that my "layout" diagram was more an exercise in seeing how the Kato trains that match my technical requirements would mesh together if I wanted to stick to the prototype (i.e. E531 Joban doesn't run on the same tracks as E233 Chuo). I think I would need more then 500 sqft to even begin to properly create what is in the diagram, and it would require some serious elevation (10' ceilings) to avoid serious duck unders.

 

A more practical plan, but one which I can't start drawing until I had an actual shape to work with, is "JR North" a freelance layout. In theory this would have the main "Green" line which enters a major population center where it branches into the "Orange" line through the major business/entertainment district. Seperately the suburban "Blue" line would move around the outskirts of the city, with the light "Yellow" line branching off it to reach a freight area (container facility perhaps). Scroll back up to my icons of the available Kato trains and this should click. The actual line names would be Japanese based on something associated with the color - to steal an example "Green Earth", "Orange Star", "Blue Moon" and "Yellow Comet".

 

Regardless some apects I want are:

• Multiple stations, with some stations allowing passing. The double length station presents a really interesting operations setting.
  
• Multiple lines. Ideally designed to overlap, so that various combination lines can be created through visible and hidden switching, as well as providing an around the world option that toggles switches to take a train through the whole layout.
  
• Signs and signalling, working with automation to run trains
  
• Photo alley, a long stretch of uninterrupted track (15-20') with little in the way of structures to provide a generic railway
  

 

One issue I have with moving to 5 cars is if I can reorganize my existing stock. 3 of the 4 trains can be prototypically run (or very close to) in 5 car formation, but the car numbers (1 through 10) printed on the sides give it away.

[keitaro]

Another thing to consider is your yard / sidings they too will need to take up a full 10 car length. That is if you plan to park them in a yard or sidings when not using like i do.

 

I buy mostly kiha as my layout is small and rural.

 

Having said that i really do have no problem buying a 6 car train and only using it as a 3 car formation.

 

even now on my layout a 3 car train is too long for all my stations except 1 and just manage to fit in my train yard.

 

I guess my basic oval loop track is not the best planned line for even supporting a lengthy station.

 

I don't mind buying a 5 - 8 car set but 10 cars even for my future larger layout hopefully 2.6m x 2m (plan) will not have the space to support a station long enough for a 10 car formation.

 

having said that you may not always want to run it to fit on the station and may just love the thrill of running a full 10 car set in your spare time on your layout.

 

I do like the look of long trains running and some time run my trains as their full 6 - 8 car set i have bought just for fun.

 

 

To be hohnest if you like running the full car formation don't let the length of the station turn you off doing so.

[scott]

but also increase the perceived amount of travel between stations

 

This is what's driving me toward 5- or 6-car trains at the most. It bugs me for the front of a train to arrive at the next station a few seconds after the last car leaves the departure station. :-/  And it bugs me more than the idea of having shorter-than-prototypical trains.

 

I'd love to have a really long layout like Inobu described--that sense of distance would be a big improvement.

[rankodd]

I think that if your layout is less than a good sized basement in size, then running shorter trains is definitely better. I expect that my 12' layout with a 3' L on the end will probably see an average of 4 car trains, maybe 5, and I'll be modelling dense urban settings where you would normally see the 10+5 sets. I think there just isn't enough room for anything longer. The name of the game is selective compression.

[Mudkip Orange]

Another thing to consider is that the platform lengths don't all have to accommodate the longest train.

 

Many of the local stations on the Izukyu, for instance, are sized only sized for four cars - even though the line regularly sees 10-car consists of the various Odoriko variants.

 

You could easily model this operation by having one station and one staging yard each with 10-car capacity, and the rest of the layout designed to 4 cars.

[john_ibw]

If I could afford it, I would collect the full lengths but operate shorter ones as needed. In yards in Australia at least, always seem to have a few cars. On a layout, the yards don't look deserted if you have a small fleet and them are doing laps. Several times in the past, I have acquired only the basic set and later on I was unable to find add-ons because it was out of production. I personally don't have track lengths that can accomodate a decent length between stations with a 10 car formation. 

[Kabutoni]

If I had a whole room (and money) to make a layout I'd rather go for an interesting fictive electrified private railway (à la Gakunan) where one could see the whole route and thus the whole (modest) fleet as well. A few loops and a factory branch at the terminal (or somewhere else along the way), so that short freights are possible as well. Passenger trains would consist of a maximum of 2/3 cars with few variation in rolling stock types (except for the obligatory flashy express/rental unit, museum car and colour variations).

 

The layout would then also feature a transfer station to a mainline where full length trains would run. This as an excuse for freight wagon transfers and a logical connection for the passengers is provided. This is also where the depot of the private line would be situated (creating an interesting vista to watch the various rolling stock and station complex). This would be in the nature of the Kominato RR's Goi station or the former Kashima RR Kashima sta., tough in electrified form.

 

As for the main line, the maximum length would be 8-cars, probably JR for a logical freight transfer, as no big private RR, with long passenger trains, provides freight traffic any more. Trains here would be a mixture of modern 4-door urbans, the occasional Ltd. Express and some freight.

 

The main focus would be on the natural and urban landscape tough. It's more fun for me to make landscapes, rather then to run the trains.

[Bob_NZ]

What I have done, is try to accommodate all of my wishes into the one layout which is centered on "my" 10 platform Asahikawa station.  

 

4 platforms are the terminus for my commuter line running E231 in 10 and 5 car formation.  These platforms run into a building/hill so I dont have to model the full platforms and the 10 car trains are there stored on otherwise unrealistic curved track to save space.

 

From Asahi' the double track line runs though Bentencho station where only the short "locals" stop thus only short platforms. These 2 stations are on different sides of a peninsula so you cannot see both stations at once.  From Bentencho the line runs into a tunnel where there is a timed hidden stop to create the illusion of distance then re-emerge at Chojo station where all trains must stop.  From here it changes to a single line to negotiate a gorge (deliberate congestion spot) then into a tunnel to Nose Station (hidden).  From here they do a return run.  This commuter line is really just automated scenery.

 

Asahi' also has 4 platforms for the double track Tokkaido line.  Trains of say 10 cars may stop here whereas the longer sleepers and bulk freights run through non stop.  This is mainly a loop running into Owari (hidden storage) where the trains are stored until it is their turn to run.  Once again this line is mainly automated scenery.

 

My main operation aspect is the Yamakaigan Coastal line (single track - non electrified) which runs from Owari (hidden storage) through the 2 platforms at Asahi' around to Hidume (a hidden station and stopover) through a local stop then to the port terminus and yards of Kaiganji.  This port is set in the 1960s which lets me run steam (a railfan train by the time it runs through the modern Asahi station).  So this line allows me to run 2 axle freight cars in short trains, along with Kihas etc.  There is also a small yard for this line at Asahi' so I can make up a train at one end and break it down at the other.

 

From this port there is an electrified single track mountain line that runs up to Yamashiro on a second level 1 meter above (only suitable for short trains).  I am still building this line.  From here it can take another route down to join onto the commuter line, thus allowing a train to travel over all of the layout tracks if I ever wanted to.

 

I have made provision for Shinkansens to run around 3 sides but wanted to avoid any visible turns.  So in the end all that actually will be visible will be a 1 metre section in the middle of the run to give the illusion of a real Shinkansen - now you see it, now you dont.

 

Trams will also be added later.

 

So my advice would be to model your main interest but make provision in case your interest changes direction in the future.

 

By all means model long trains, as on a room size layout, you can do it.

 

Good Luck!  

 

Bob

[Jcarlton]

Have you considered the outer loop?  For instance you could do tsuruni line with a tokaido-kehin tohoku runthru.  Or the Nambu line.  That gives you even more traffic variety than then inner loop and isn't so overwhelming.

[Bernard]

For me the biggest factor for the length on my trains is my yard. My yard is on a 4x8 board and when I designed it I took in account how any trains I could store in it. Trains that are 6 to 7 cars in length can be stored on any track, any thing longer is limited to 2 tracks in the yard.

[bikkuri bahn]

Inobu pretty much summed it up in his post, but let me add my two centavos: station platforms are tremendous space eaters, and provide relatively little operational interest, especially for emu type commuter trains.  10 car and longer (Tokaido Line trains are 15 cars long) emus are really, really long- in real life, not to mention in models.  So, unless you have the basement at your disposal, a six car consist I think is the best balance between realism and practicality.

[KenS]

I've refrained from voting, as you missed an important category: 3-5 car urban commuter trains.  While I prefer big trains and multi-track stations, that's not the only kind of urban commuter railway. Not all urban trains are 15-car behemoths, or even 6-car expresses.

 

Consider the Tokyu Oimachi line, which uses 5-car trains, and includes at least one three-car station, Togoshi-koen.

 

Or JR's Tsurumi line, which uses three-car trains to serve the industrial Tokyo waterfront area.

 

Or the Keisei Electric Railway's Kanamachi line, a short and partly single-track railway with three stations that meanders through a residential neighboorhood between two other railway lines.

 

Any of these would be suitable to an along-one-wall point to point shelf layout.  The Tsurumi line is particularly interesting as is mixes freight (oil trains) with passenger on a double-track line that's littered with bridges and grade crossings. I created a track plan inspired by it last year, although I didn't actually build it.

 

Edit: 6/5 Fixed track plan link.

[lordwinslow2]

On my 531 train, I have removed 3 cars (I have an 8 car set) to make my train 5 cars long.  It does the station I have setup perfectly.  I am finding myself moving towards the 2 and 3 car sets.  I am going to do an 4X8 foot layout with a possible 4x4 add on to make an L shape.  I am still going to pick up some larger express and urban sets.  I still run my Narita Express (6 car set) and it looks ok on my layout so far even my Series 500 6 car setup I have looks ok too.  It will all look ok, heck I am even going to pick up and run newer Dr. Yellow, Eurostar, German ICE, and Amtrak models on my layout too.  Yes it will be modeled Urban/Rural transition, but it will look ok no matter what train size I decide to put down and run.

 

Winslow 

[john_ibw]

I created a track plan inspired by it last year, although I didn't actually build it.

 

KenS, the link seems to be broken. Can you check please?

[KenS]

I think I forgot to paste the actual URL.  Fixed now.

[harukablue]

What about some freight?? EH200 and tank cars or EH500 with KoKi's?, me I run 10 KoKi's and 12 Tankers, my most numerous is 16 WAMU wood chip vans,

[linkey]

majority of my trains are JR East and they are a mixture of shinkansens and comuter trains which are 4 tp 16 cars long (being to it's true running train). I don't have a personal layout at the moment but I do that modules that are mine that are used in the group's exhibition layout, which gives me a running spot for my trains.

 

The only problem I have was building a 3x 900mm x 600mm straight modules that could be added to the group modules (as the tracks are the same distance as the 900mm x 300mm modules) but found out I did the station layout to a full length N700 instead to the 485 Aizu Liner :(

 

So I have a very long station platform for my module scene. But it is a good learning curve for me and knowing when building a personal layout not to have 10+ car running on the layout.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

What about some freight?? EH200 and tank cars or EH500 with KoKi's?, me I run 10 KoKi's and 12 Tankers, my most numerous is 16 WAMU wood chip vans,

 

An EH200 or two EF64s on a rake of 21 container flats. Now that's a sight to behold, if it'll fit! 

[omar]

I run my 16 car 700 on t-trak. yes, it is going through at least 2 turns at any given moment. But kids and adults really like the "Amtrak", and I run it pretty fast. biggest problem is bounce of lead car. Kato. I am pretty impressed. I will most likely have it again at Trainfest in Milwaukee.

 

run trains - have fun.

[David]

I think one of my biggest concerns is not the overall space available - I can always reduce the number of stations or find interesting ways to fold the track - but the sense of movement.

 

As Inobu said it's a bit about the 400 feet above bit of scale difference. From that vantage point a 10-car train doesn't really seem to move but instead slide like a worm as the same point seems to be occupied for some time.