Need help with a prototype to model.

[keiichi77]

First off I would like to thank everyone that helped clear my confusion with Koki cars, this is by far the nicest form I have ever belonged too. I could certainly use your help again in brainstorming an idea for a prototype to model. My budget is very limited but I am basically looking to model a line in northern Japan. Preferably one that would run Koki trains (whether it is diesel or electric) and of course some form of passenger service  that shares the same tracks (again diesel or electric). I am designing this layout to be portable so I am looking at either 3' X 7' or 3' X 8'. I am not sure what equipment the lines in northern Japan operate for freight or passenger as Japan has many unique trains. I have a clean slate to work with as I own only one locomotive (DD51) and no track (except for a few pieces of atlas code 55).  Any help would be appreciated.

 

On another note, I have been warned that code 55 might not work with some Japanese models, What about code 65 Atlas True Track? Has anyone tried it or should I just go with unitrack (I like the look of Tomix Finetrack over unitrack but with no North American distributor it gets rather expensive).

 

Jason

[CaptOblivious]

Others might have better, more interesting suggestions, but my recommendation would be to have a look at the Joban line. It's a double-track electrified line that connects Tokyo with Sendai to the north. Southern portion is DC electrified, northern portion is AC, which means you can see a very wide variety of rolling stock. Freight includes koki trains, and gasoline unit trains, hauled by EF510, EF81, and (I believe) EF64-1000 locos. Passenger services includes some of the most interesting limited expresses, the 651 "Super Hitachi" (available from Kato) and E653 "Fresh Hitachi" (available from Micro Ace), as well as a variety of local and commuter rapids (E531, E231, 701, 415 and 415-1500, etc.) depending on the particular stretch of the road you are interested in. No loco-hauled overnight trains, however.

[Kamiyacho]

I have been warned that code 55 might not work with some Japanese models

 

My layout runs DCC Kato trains with Kato and MA freight cars on Peco code 55 track and when everything is working cleanly it is absolutely brilliant.  However, my impression is that all factors (car size/weight, turn-outs, electrical contact, etc.) are right on the edge of my technical ability to manage and from time-to-time it requires a frustrating amount of fiddling. From experience with the JRM layout I'd say that Unitrack is about as worry-free as it comes.  So it is a trade-off.  

[westfalen]

Others might have better, more interesting suggestions, but my recommendation would be to have a look at the Joban line. It's a double-track electrified line that connects Tokyo with Sendai to the north. Southern portion is DC electrified, northern portion is AC, which means you can see a very wide variety of rolling stock. Freight includes koki trains, and gasoline unit trains, hauled by EF510, EF81, and (I believe) EF64-1000 locos. Passenger services includes some of the most interesting limited expresses, the 651 "Super Hitachi" (available from Kato) and E653 "Fresh Hitachi" (available from Micro Ace), as well as a variety of local and commuter rapids (E531, E231, 701, 415 and 415-1500, etc.) depending on the particular stretch of the road you are interested in. No loco-hauled overnight trains, however.

Good choice as the Tohoku Line doesn't have much in the way of passenger trains other than locals since the Shinkansen now extends all the way to Aomori. I was thinking of the Ōu Line between Akita and Aomori for the same reason, it carries a lot of freight as well as the Ninhonkai, Akebono and Twilight Express sleeper trains. If you model Akita you can even slip in an E3 Shinkansen.

[bikkuri bahn]

I second westfalen's recommendation.  If you're modeling modern outline, the mainlines that are not parallel to the shinkansen network will offer the most variety (and operational interest). 

[keiichi77]

Thanks again for the help, I almost completely forgot about Google Earth, I looked up all the lines you recommended, they are close to what I am looking for but I want to go even further north to Hokkaido island which currently has no Shinkansen. From Google Earth satellite view I can see that Hokkaido has many single/double track lines the run all over the place.  This is what wikipedia has on the Hokkaido Railway Company.

 

"The Hokkaido Railway Company is one of the constituent companies of Japan Railways Group (JR Group), and thus often known as JR Hokkaido. It operates intercity rail services in Hokkaido, Japan.

At the time of its privatization in 1987, JR Hokkaido operated 21 railway lines totalling 3,176.6 km of track, as well as a ferry service to Aomori. Since then, that number has dwindled to just below 2,500 km, as unprofitable lines have been shut down or spun off (in the case of the Hokkaidō Chihoku Kōgen Railway)."

 

 

So far I found out the lines on Hokkaido use DD51s (yay), ED79 AC locomotive, Super Hokuto, Hokuto and Super Kamui. Does anyone know what other equipment might run in Hokkaido?

 

Jason

[bikkuri bahn]

So far I found out the lines on Hokkaido use DD51s (yay), ED79 AC locomotive, Super Hokuto, Hokuto and Super Kamui. Does anyone know what other equipment might run in Hokkaido?

 

In addition to above, on JRF trains, DF200, and DE10 in freight yards. Passenger: 711 series EMU, 721 series EMU, kiha 40, kiha 54, among others.  In general, rolling stock in Hokkaido tends to be unique in design, so the variety isn't to the same extent as lines in Honshu.  ED79 locomotives are used only on the extreme southern end, out of Hakodate on the Seikan Tunnel route.

 

Japanese wikipedia entry. Section 1 of the contents lists current rolling stock.

[Guest JRF-1935]

Jason,

  The Hokkaido line also has the Gold Line type 25-24 series passenger car ( Kato #10-067, #10-068 ) pulled by the Hokkaido Gold Line "Shooting Star" DD51 ( Kato #7002-3 ) beautiful blue train with gold trim.  Haven't been to Japan so I don't know if this train is still operational, but it is a beautiful model.  I got lucky on ebay and got the 4 and 3 car PC set along with the locomotive recently.

Rich C

[Kabutoni]

Here is a list from the Japanese Wikipedia of all JR Hokkaidô's rolling stock:

 

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JR%E5%8C%97%E6%B5%B7%E9%81%93%E3%81%AE%E8%BB%8A%E4%B8%A1%E5%BD%A2%E5%BC%8F

 

I've translated the traction part for you.

 

Engines

 

Steam Locomotives

 

    * C11 Type: SL Fuyu no Shitsugen Gô・SL Hokodate Ohnuma Gô・SL Niseko Gô

 

Electric Locomotives

 

    * ED79 Type: Night Ltd. Express 'Hokutosei', 'Twilight Express', 'Cassiopeia'; Express 'Hamanasu'.

 

Diesel Locomotives

 

    * DD51 Type: Night Ltd. Express 'Hokutosei', 'Twilight Express', 'Cassiopeia'; Express 'Hamanasu'.

    * DE10 Type

    * DE15 Type (Snow Plow)

    * DBR600 Type (Snow Plow)

 

EMU

 

Ltd. Express Stock

 

    * 785 Series: EL Ltd. Express 'Super Kamui', 'Suzuran'; Ltd. Express 'Super Hakuchô'; Rapid 'Airport'.

    * 789 Series: Ltd. Express 'Super Hakuchô'; EL Ltd. Express 'Super Kamui'; Rapid 'Airport'.

 

Standard Stock

 

    * 711 Series

    * 721 Series: Rapid 'Airport'; Periodical Rapid 'Ishikari Liner'

    * 731 Series: Periodical Rapid 'Ishikari Liner'

    * 735 Series

 

DMU

 

Ltd. Express Stock

 

    * KIHA 183 Type: Ltd. Express 'Hokuto', 'Ohotsk', 'Sarobetsu'.

    * KIHA 261 Type (Tilting Train): Ltd. Express 'Super Soya', 'Super Tokachi'.

    * KIHA 281 Type (Tilting Train): Ltd. Express 'Hokuto'.

    * KIHA 283 Type (Tilting Train): Ltd. Express 'Super Ohzora', 'Super Tokachi', Super Hokuto'.

 

Standard Stock

 

    * KIHA 40 Type・KIHA 48 Type

    * KIHA 54 Type

    * KIHA 141 Series

    * KIHA 150 Type

    * KIHA 160 Type（Innovative Technlology Train, Experimental vehicle; converted from now defunct KIHA 130 Type）

    * KIHA 201 Type (Tilting Train): Rapid 'Niseko Liner'.

    * KIHA 400 Type・KIHA 480 Type

 

I hope this helps a bit.

[Martijn Meerts]

On another note, I have been warned that code 55 might not work with some Japanese models, What about code 65 Atlas True Track? Has anyone tried it or should I just go with unitrack (I like the look of Tomix Finetrack over unitrack but with no North American distributor it gets rather expensive).

 

Jason

 

The problem with Unitrack/Finetrack is that you're pretty much stuck to using their radii. Finetrack has a little more options then Unitrack, but it's not always easy to get. Even on the Japanese stores, pieces can be out of stock for a long time.

 

Peco's advantage is their flextrack which allows you to do whatever you want curve wise. I intend to use Peco track myself, and I already have a bunch of it. Tested it with several trains and so far haven't had any issues. Even old Minitrix cars with grossly out-of-proportion wheels seem to go over turnouts without problems. Of course, it is quite a bit more difficult to work with than Unitrack/Finetrack, lots of things you need to keep in mind.

[keiichi77]

Thanks for the translation Toni, that is exactly what I needed,  this will help narrow down what I eventually want to purchase. I do like the Gold Line type 25-24 series passenger cars. As for track, if this was going to be a permanent layout I would go with flex track, but since I am only planning to make this a 3' X 6' to 3' X 8' setup I don't think I will need any radii bigger then what Kato offers.  I am working on a track plan that has a double track section that splits into two single tracks, one single track is electrified the other isn't, all of the double track is electrified. It will have a small 4 to 5 track yard. I don't plan on having any other sidings to factories or anything as I am trying to keep the cost of this low and unitrack turnouts are rather expensive.  When funds allow I am going to pick up either an M1 or M2 set to start off. I just spent my starting budget on some Koki cars so I might have to wait a few weeks. I guess I should have bought the track first..at least I could run my DD51...LOL

[CaptOblivious]

This is perhaps more well-known here as the "Hokutosei"---still very much ioperational! Hauled by a pair of ED79s through the seikan tunnel, then a pair of the blue "Hokutosei" liveried DD51s to Sapporo. Don't forget its sister the "Cassiopeia"!

 

 

Jason,

  The Hokkaido line also has the Gold Line type 25-24 series passenger car ( Kato #10-067, #10-068 ) pulled by the Hokkaido Gold Line "Shooting Star" DD51 ( Kato #7002-3 ) beautiful blue train with gold trim.  Haven't been to Japan so I don't know if this train is still operational, but it is a beautiful model.  I got lucky on ebay and got the 4 and 3 car PC set along with the locomotive recently.

Rich C

 

[westfalen]

Don't forget the nightly Aomori-Sapporo "Hamanasu" either, normally only seven cars long and hauled by a single DD51 between Hakodate and Sapporo. Japan's forgotten sleeping car train.

http://www.jrhokkaido.co.jp/train/tr015_01.html

[bikkuri bahn]

Don't forget the nightly Aomori-Sapporo "Hamanasu" either, normally only seven cars long and hauled by a single DD51 between Hakodate and Sapporo. Japan's forgotten sleeping car train.

http://www.jrhokkaido.co.jp/train/tr015_01.html

 

Yes, and an express (急行) with 14 series coaches to boot.  A lot of college students use this to get to/from school in holiday periods.  It will definitely get the axe when the shinkansen eventually reaches Shin-Hakodate, if not earlier.

[Guest JRF-1935]

This is perhaps more well-known here as the "Hokutosei"---still very much ioperational! Hauled by a pair of ED79s through the seikan tunnel, then a pair of the blue "Hokutosei" liveried DD51s to Sapporo. Don't forget its sister the "Cassiopeia"!

 

Thanks Cap !

Great info!  Still learning and "lovin" it!  It's a very beautiful train.  

Rich C

[Kamiyacho]

This is perhaps more well-known here as the "Hokutosei"---still very much ioperational!

 

I love this train - it appears on my layout from time-to-time.

[keiichi77]

Well, after spending a few hours working on a track plan, and a few days trying to figure out XtrkCad this is what I came up with. It is basically a modified "Scenic Ridge" design with an outer loop added which always stays at zero elevation. The inner loop rises to go over itself and back down, basically making the inner loop twice as long as the outer loop. For money reasons right now I am going to focus on getting to outer loop finished. In place of the double crossover I will just put in straight sections for now. The section in red overlaps and every combination of track I could think of comes out with this result or worse. If I remove the #4 switch everything works fine but I will try and find a way to do it with the switch in place. I tried a #6 but it made things much worse.  The layout will be 3' X 7'. The track plan doesn't show elevations but basically the 2 outer loops of track will go into a tunnel in the front bottom left corner, then exit around the top as two separate tracks, the inner track starts to climb while it does the figure 8 (around the engine house), once it goes over the bridge it is on the elevated but flat plateau where it passes over itself then starts to drop back down in the back (the inner track) to elevation zero before it hits the super elevated curve on the right top corner.  Comments suggestions are welcome :)

[disturbman]

I'm just wondering what you want to do with your yard. I'm not sure that where you put it is the right place for it.

[keiichi77]

hi disturbman, do you mean the tracks by the station or the 2 tracks going to the engine stalls?  the engine stall tracks were added as an after thought.  I was trying to find a way to incorporate Kato's engine house. I tried other ways but they just didn't fit.  I might remove them altogether as I only plan to continuous run 2 trains. :)

 

Do you have an idea on where they should go? 

[disturbman]

Hey Keiichi!

 

Yes, I was speaking about your engine stall tracks. I don't know how much space you have but I was thinking that you could add the stall/yard on some sort of spin off, a second module or add-on to your layout.

 

Also, it would be good to have a straight track between your points and your curves.

[keiichi77]

Thanks disturbman, I never would have thought of that. I just removed the yard track and added the spur that leads of layout. :)

[westfalen]

I wouldn't worry too much about the two pieces that don't line up exactly, Unitrack has a bit of give in it to take up a few millimeters either way.

[disturbman]

Keiichi, you're welcome. That's why we are here, to share our experiences, our ideas and possibly find solutions for other members' problems.

 

I've been thinking a bit more and maybe it could be interesting operation wise to use the following track layout for the yard spur. It would allow you to make some manoeuvers without having to distort the mainline.

 

Anyhow, like everytrack plan, you need to play with it to see if something is bothering you or if it fits your needs.

[keiichi77]

Thanks again for the ideas. I removed the #4 switch which caused that small alignment problem on the viaduct section. It wasn't crucial for operating the layout so it was just easier to remove it. I went with your most recent modification but keep the #6 right hand switches from your first mod instead of the left handed switches. That way I could come off of the yard module go through the 2 #6R switches then through the crossover to the platform at the station. Here is my updated plan.

[disturbman]

Somehow, now that you miss the connection between your double mainline and your local loop I have the feeling something is missing. Now you just have three ovals...