layout New layout project: Sakuragi no yu sen

[SL58654号]

1 hour ago, Martijn Meerts said:

With a fancy table like that, all that now remains, is to make an incredibly fancy layout 😄

 

If I could post GIFs here, I'd post one to express my elated jubilation at that kind comment! 

I WILL make an interesting tack plan allowing for interesting operation, and the scenery I'll want to look professional! I'll be using every guide to model railroad scenery that I know of for N gauge. (That'll be the more delicate part of the process.) 

[SL58654号]

17 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Great, it’s together! Yes you learned the hard way, but in a good way you will remember that rushing on woodworking like this usually ends up taking longer as usually you screw something up and the time and money lost could have been saved by slowing down a bit and maybe finishing at the same time more happily and assuredly with better quality. I battle impatience doing woodworking carefully usually as not by a lack of patience but lack of time, but I’ve found screwing up sucks all the joy out of the work for me so best to just let it take longer to get done in my limited time and when it’s done good it’s a really nice feeling in the end as well as having a nice piece!
 

how did you fasten the corners together?

 

for attaching the legs I’d really look at using bolts into threaded inserts or the hidden leg hardware available out there. Using dowels won’t be super removable as many removals will slowly loosen the holes up if you knock them out. Also hard to get things super tight with dowels thru the sides and into the ends of the legs. There are a number of ways to attach the legs to the table and it’s critical this is a solid connection or even a  beefy table will wobble (even more so under its own weight. 
 

I would use bolts thru the legs that screw into threaded inserts you put into the back side of the table frame. You clamp the leg in place and drill a hole (the diameter of the bolt) thru the leg and into the side a bit. Then drill out the hole in the inside of the table side to the diameter needed for the threaded insert (it’s need a little bit bigger diameter hole than the bolt does), then you screw the threaded insert into the hole inside of the side of the table.The bolt can go thru the leg and into the threaded insert and lock the leg solidly to the side. One bolt from each direction in a leg should lock it in well, 3 if you want super locked in. This would be the simplest and completely hidden. Threaded inserts are pretty cheap and m5 or m6 would do you fine for bolts. Also use washers on the bolts. Threaded inserts are an old tried and true hidden fastener that can take a lot of force and are pretty simple to install. You have very thick table side walls to install them in so that’s helpful. Longer the threaded insert you use the more solid the connection into the table side and the more play you have on the length of the bolt to use (you can cheat and add extra washers to the bolt head end if bolt is just a bit too long for the depth of your insert or drill the insert hole a bit deeper than needed for extra bolt length space back there).

 

https://www.amazon.com/PGMJ-Furniture-Threaded-Connector-Assortment/dp/B07Z97R28G/ref=sr_1_4?crid=FEI60VK0JS62&keywords=m6+threaded+insert&qid=1702491225&sprefix=M6+thre%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-4

 

there are fancier corner brackets and bolt brackets for leg attachment out there, but some would end up using screws into the legs which with repeated removals could loosen up and eventually strip out the hole in the wood of the legs. Bolts don’t do this and can apply a lot more cinching pressure than a screw can. leg bracket hardware, while convenient can require specific leg and corner designs and cuts and can also get pricy and fiddly to install.

 

whatever way you secure the legs if you plan on removing and reattaching them make sure to label them on the legs to the corners they go to as hand built like this they will be fairly unique and best go back together in one way even if it sorta fits another way. Also mark orientation. Simple and line that matches up on leg and table to fit properly makes life easier later.

 

keep on moving but again don’t rush, pretty much guaranteed mistakes or poorer quality work then and can take a lot of the fun out of the project.

 

cheers

 

jeff

Many thanks!
I simply used screws to fasten the sides together. I pre-drilled holes where screws where desired so the heads would all be very well-concealed and reach through the opposing sides. I used two or three per corner. I plan to cover them up with wood filler.
EDIT: The corners, I should emphasize, were not as perfect as I'd hoped they'd be, but with the screws I believe the sides are secured permanently together so that they're structurally sound and shall last a lifetime. 
I'll look into your advice about fastening the legs with bolts. My local hardware shop is always handy.
 
At least, whether or not I get the legs on by Christmas, I can still take the liberty of "Test-fitting" the track layout and drill maybe a hole or two in the surface for the wiring and have a little fun... And now that MOST of the very hard work is behind me, I feel I could use a breather and take my time with this... 

Edited December 14, 2023 by SL58654号

[SL58654号]

@cteno4 I did however hit another snag. When I screwed the plywood into the frame, I forgot to measure the length of the screws. They were plenty long enough to fasten the four corners together, but TOO long for the plywood into the mouth of the table sides, hence what you see looking at its underside. I stood the table on its side, clamping it for security. 

I tried some nail nippers, but that didn't work. Should I use a file?

[cteno4]

45 cuts are hard to be perfect even when doing them with a good miter saw. My dad had a very nice framers hand miter saw setup for making picture frames and even with that it took care to get all corners perfectly fitted.
 

You could try a simple hack saw handle (basically a cheap little handle a hacksaw blade fits in leaving about 5” of blade out to saw flush with). With this you can try to saw off flush and then file last little bit. But both sawing and filing may gouge up the wood some even if you are very careful. While it’s in the bottom you don’t want to hit near the front corner or you may see some gouges along the bottom of your outer edges. Nippers won’t go thru hardened steel and even brass would be hard with nippers and would need to file as nippers usually give you a sharp end bit.

 

much easier solution is to just put in some shorter screws and back out the offending ones, but I expect you can’t do that if the foam is now glued down over them. Could drill a larger hole thru the foam where screws are to remove them and replace with shorter screws. The just fill the holes with spray foam insulation you use for window seals or just stuff in some hunks of foam and sand off. Foam will all be covered eventually.

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

@cteno4 
I'll go with the former method and file them away and sand and lacquer over them later, with a little wood filler. I plan on using wood filler to cover any noticeable flaws in the wood's uniformity anyhow. 
I really like your idea on threaded wood inserts for attaching the legs. I'll look for them at my hardware store and use those probably. That'll save me time and effort.
I think I'll want to attach the legs via the threaded inserts here, since the plywood I've screwed permanently to the sides anyway. The bottoms of the legs I'll want to add threaded leveling feet to via inserts as well.

And lastly, to further "fancify" my layout table, whether the public sees it or not, for added comfort and to conceal that rough underneath plywood, I think I'll put green or red felt on it to cover it up from that nasty splintering surface, and use my chisel to neatly tuck it in beneath the thick ledge. I'll seal it there with caulk.
What do you think?

And even though I won't be ashamed of the legs by any means, I might want to add a curtain, whether black or beige in color, to go around the layout table and be like a skirt seen on many other exhibition layouts. What exactly is that called? 

[cteno4]

with the wood putty practice with it first on some scrap and apply your finish to see how it will look in the end. Depending on the putty and wood you can get some places were the putty may look worse than the imperfections you are trying to hide. Also your cedar has a pretty wide variation in color from very light to dark to red. This means a single color putty may not work well in all places. Using a lighter and darker putty may be needed and you can even mix a little of each together to get something in between. Best to use putty sparingly, sand some and then assess if you need to do more. Putty is never the same hardness as the surrounding wood so it can lead to uneven sanding, so always best to use a sanding block when sanding around putty to get a more even sand.

 

also really test your finishes. Cedar many times is not lacquered and just left bare or oiled. It’s a wood where the grain looks better more rough cut than sanded up really smooth. Lacquering rougher wood can look odd. You need to play with finishes as there are a lot of variables and usually once you start down one path and you are forced to remain on it! Only option at times is to paint over a finish you hate and that is the last finish option of last resort in my book. Trying to remove a finish can be a lot of work and new finish may end up showing some remnants of the old finish.

 

in looking at your side pieces, I’m thinking you will need to use some sort of L brackets to hold the legs on. It looks like you only have about 25mm to connect into. This is really close to the end of the leg to put your bolt holes thru and probably not enough room to get the drill in there to do the drilling in place to make things line up perfectly. You can use small bolts and threaded inserts in the legs to make them easily removable multiple times. You may get by with two larger brackets in the back sides of the legs and small L brackets on the front side so they will be hidden at normal viewing angles.

 

mounting legs is one of the hardest things to do well to look nice and be sturdy and fit into your design! It’s actually one of the first places I start in design of new things as it’s always the most problematic and hardest to redo down the road.

 

Simple leveling feet work well. Threaded insert are better than hammer in T nuts as with time t nuts wiggle loose, threaded inserts don’t.

 

On the underside I would suggest you maybe just mount some like 10mm thick blocks of wood at strategic places on the plywood and then get a couple of sheets to foam core and attach them to the blocks with sticky Velcro squares (paint the block face so the Velcro adhesive sticks well or use not sticky Velcro and glue them on). This will give you a space to run wires to where ever your control panel will be. The foam core will cover any wires and look nice. You can cut a couple of holes to put your finder in to pull them off. Otherwise I’d recommend paint the ply black as gluing down felt or cloth can be problematic and if you don’t like it, really hard to remove.

 

For the curtains, we always just called them skirts. Black usually works best and polyester to be more wrinkle free. On our last big layout we sewed a Velcro strip along the top of the skirting and then has Velcro along the frame under the layout and just pop it up. Does make the layout look a bit better to take away the clutter that may be under the layout at a show as usually the only place to stow boxes and such during the show. Just need to find a friend with a sewing machine!

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

@cteno4 Excuse me? Thank you for all the handy links to tools and materials, but could you give me links to the same items on Amazon.japan from now on? I order from there most often because you can pay with cash. Hopefully I can find those brackets and everything in my hardware store. 

[cteno4]

I’m just giving some quick examples, and Amazon.com is convenient for me to do that fast. Do the Amazon.com not resolve for you in Japan? There are a plethora of options in most of these things and I just grab the one closest to what I’m talking about at a reasonable price for example, I don’t research down to the exact best choice for you usually. I leave it to you to do some looking around for exactly the item you want from what ever source there in Japan. It’s easy for you to look up all the options to you on Amazon.jp. You may have better luck finding more options once you see the us Amazon example and doing better searching on Amazon.jp in Japanese. I don’t speak Japanese. Also Amazon.jp tends to prioritize things that can be sent to the us for me and Amazon.jp give different results when you search in English that sometimes are not what I’m looking for, but Amazon us gives me what I’m looking for in English fast.

 

you gotta do a little of the work and looking at options available there will help you in figuring out exactly how you want to proceed. Sourcing the right hardware and tools for you and projects is actually a part of woodworking and it takes learning to dig for the right things and learning about features and options.

 

if you have questions about particular choices you want input on them I’m happy to help inform your decision if you give me some options to look at. Or if you need more info on features you don’t understand as well.

 

Jeff

[SL58654号]

@cteno4 Thanks. The amount of variety of tools and materials is somewhat overwhelming, but I'm really beginning to have fun and enjoyment with this project, especially since now the table is almost standing on its legs, and I almost have an excuse to first lay down tracks. Thanks for everything you've provided me with so far!

I hope to get the legs on with those threaded inserts and brackets today, or at least pick up all those materials. 
EDIT: I had some happy hunting today again at Handsman and indeed I was able to find everything I needed on my list to attach those legs, and then some! Here we go!

Edited December 16, 2023 by SL58654号

[SL58654号]

All in a day's work - the table leg levelers and the threaded inserts for the legs to go into are now installed!
Now, all that's left is to add the hanger bolts in the tops of the legs. This layout will be standing on its own legs for the first time tomorrow! 

[cteno4]

So you are just going to have a single bolt coming out the end of the leg and screw into a threaded insert on the bottom of the layout frame? Not sure if this will be all that sturdy with soft wood on wood. This can work with metal on metal and there are end caps for legs with plates for the underside to screw the end cap into. I’m afraid with lateral pressure the inserts may end up getting torn out. See if it works. 
 

leg connections are the trickiest as a lot of force is transferred in a tiny space.
 

jeff

[SL58654号]

@cteno4 I'm confident that, as long as they're not abused when placed on their side, it'll work fine. I screwed the inserts in very strongly. But I forget to get a socket wrench to put the hanger bolts in the legs, so one more trip to Handsman. I'm getting this on its legs today!

Edited December 17, 2023 by SL58654号

[cteno4]

With this sort of thing it will just need to see how it works in practice. Legs are nasty as you have lateral forces as well as wracking forces on the leg joints as well as big lever arms (the legs themselves) to push on the joints. But see how it fairs, you can always come up with another solution if there are problems. Like I said let attachment is the most fickle and frustrating bit in furniture design! 

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

Today was another major milestone. 🎉
It took a lot of blood, sweat and hard work, but now I can confidently say that the table for Sakuragi no Yu Sen is solidly, sturdily, and steadfastly standing of its own legs once and for all! The threaded inserts did the job satisfactorily in holding the legs on straight and very strongly. There's no wobbles in the table either, and its level!
It took a lot of effort to get it standing right-side up without a second person, but I knew I wanted to show it standing by this weekend! 

The blue fabric sitting on top I intend to cover up the plywood underneath the table at a later point, further adding to its luxurious essence I've wanted to give it.
Tomorrow, I'll start to test-lay tracks and maybe have a small running session as a celebratory occasion!      

A dining room chair shows how ideal its height is for operating my trains comfortably. ☺️ 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by SL58654号

[SL58654号]

Tests to lay down the track have begun!
I've so far drilled one hole in the surface to conceal the feeder wire to the controller. Later a control panel (I have plenty of spare wood left to make that!) where it will rest shall follow, but it's still such a surreal experience having a proper layout table of my own for the first time since I've moved to Japan! Now the fun has really started! 

Prince became the first engine to ever run on my layout. 

Edited December 18, 2023 by SL58654号

[SL58654号]

The next step in fitting the tack layout down before permanently caulking it down is to find suitable ways of making the gradients. 
Do anyone know what those flexible gradient blocks for model layouts are called? I could use some of those considering how mountainous this layout will be. 

[Kamome]

Do you mean the Woodland Scenics foam Incline/Decline sets?

[SL58654号]

1 hour ago, Kamome said:

Do you mean the Woodland Scenics foam Incline/Decline sets?

Bingo! I wonder if they're easy to come by in Japan? Well, back to the hobby shop!

[Kamome]

I’ve seen them in Stage One in Kokura. As Kato distribute WS in Japan, I’d assume stockists can get hold of them

[SL58654号]

2 hours ago, Kamome said:

I’ve seen them in Stage One in Kokura. As Kato distribute WS in Japan, I’d assume stockists can get hold of them

Many thanks. That's what I'll go with for the track gradients. 
I'm thinking that, also, more styrofoam boards stacked up and sawed accordingly will make ideal mountains and tunnels to be landscaped for the tracks to go through.

[cteno4]

Only issue with the ws gradients is the grades may not match what your track plan needs. I expect with your tight layout it may not, but before you buy calculate your rise over run (tiny tad of math to do the curves or cheat and use a piece of string to get a approx curve distance)  from your track plan and compare it to the ws gradient specs.
 

If it doesn’t match for you, you can get some more of the extruded foam and just cut your own blocks as needed. This is a good way to just test your grade and track plan that it will work well with the trains you plan on using. Grade and curve combinations can be challenging for some trains, good to test when things can still easily be modified.
 

Other option is to get some very thin plywood, Styrene sheet, or dense matte board and cut out your elevated track sections form it as a sub roadbed to support the track and then use foam or wood blocks under the board to set the grades. Using a sub roadbed helps support the track better and give smoother transitions and you don’t have to support directly under each track joint. Also easy to build scenery up to the sub roadbed then.

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

On 12/20/2023 at 4:25 AM, cteno4 said:

Only issue with the ws gradients is the grades may not match what your track plan needs. I expect with your tight layout it may not, but before you buy calculate your rise over run (tiny tad of math to do the curves or cheat and use a piece of string to get a approx curve distance)  from your track plan and compare it to the ws gradient specs.
 

If it doesn’t match for you, you can get some more of the extruded foam and just cut your own blocks as needed. This is a good way to just test your grade and track plan that it will work well with the trains you plan on using. Grade and curve combinations can be challenging for some trains, good to test when things can still easily be modified.
 

Other option is to get some very thin plywood, Styrene sheet, or dense matte board and cut out your elevated track sections form it as a sub roadbed to support the track and then use foam or wood blocks under the board to set the grades. Using a sub roadbed helps support the track better and give smoother transitions and you don’t have to support directly under each track joint. Also easy to build scenery up to the sub roadbed then.

 

jeff

Thank you for the suggestion. But, could you maybe show me a reference to the technique you're referring to? 

I've also had a slight change to the track plan. To combine elements of both the roundhouse of Kyoto and Hitoyoshi engine house, I had this drawn up.

[cteno4]

It’s in most all basic layout building books. Look around at YouTube videos of layout builds. You can use Google as well as I can. Maybe some of the members here may have pictures of their grade supports and sub roadbed. I’ve stayed away from grades for the last couple of decades as too much pain usually, but one of our club members did a whole series of temp layouts utilizing lots of grades so did a ton of work helping him deal with them and creating supports in various ways.

 

basically you need some thin material to make a surface (called sub roadbed usually) that your track on the grade can sit on and supports can then the sub roadbed is supported by a gradient of different sized blocks of wood or foam or cardboard to create your desired grade. The ws riser foam wedges do this all in one, but I doubt you will find the ws grade slopes will exactly fit the needs of your plan.

 

some folks create the sub roadbed by just cutting their top plywood layer out around the elevated tracks. You can then just lift the ply up on the elevated parts at the desired grade slope. The cut out ply top on the elevated sections becomes the sub roadbed. Very standard technique for doing grades. But you have your thicker foam on top so that won’t work, so you need some thin ply, rigid chipboard, or plastic to create something fir your elevated tracks to rest on.

 

you can just put foam or wood blocks at each track joint and screw or glue the track to the blocks. Track joints are the weak spot and require support under them. Unitrak and fine track are stiff enough to not have sub road bed, but can be an issue if you have a track joint floating over a track below and supporting the track joint close enough on each side of the joint and provide a small support structure like a plate bridge. This is how the Tomix and Kato incline pier sets work. It’s just a bit more work then to build up the scenery along the grade up to the track roadbed edge.
 

you can make your own piers out of like wood blocks, foam blocks or glued together pieces of little squares of cardboard that are made to even steps to get your gradient even.

 

one problem is that grade you have in the center right coming out of the station and looping back to the bridge over the station (loop going around the roundhouse) is probably a 5% grade (5cm rise over 100cm) mostly on a curve. You have to get to the bridge that will need to be up like 5-6cm to clear the platforms in like a 100cm of track starting at the end of the platform and going to the bridge end. Measure out the length of track from platform point to the bridge, you can just set it up and put a piece of string on it and measure the string or just do the math for the radiuses and straights you have there.

 

do you have most of your track for at least the mainline? If so the I would set up that center area and just use stacks of cardboard squares as piers to set that grade up and test your trains on it. It is a very severe grade and could be an issue. Plus just playing with elevated track like this will help you see physically ways you want to support your elevated track. Steam has more issues with grades and transitions than smaller locos do. Set up as much of the layout as you can before proceeding to building permanent supports. Lots of corrugated cardboard, glue, tape, and pins are your friends here to hold things together to run some trains and test things out.

 

the woodland scenics steepest grade is 4%. You could use the incline set and then try and slowly shim it up with strips of cardboard under the riser to slope the inclined foam more. One issue with the ws incline set is that they are 2.5” wide so may take up too much space around your grade track around the roundhouse and turn table. Once the foam grade was well secured you could maybe trim some off the sides, but that could hurt its structural integrity some from the way it’s built in a zig zag and if you have to shim it up all along slowly to get to the proper grade.

 

also the transitions from level to your grade need to be made in a smooth curve not a single bend. You don’t want at that point in the right of the station to go from level to 5% grade or you will have all sorts of issues. What you can do on the first piece of track (or two if shorter pieces) that starts the grade is to cut slots in the bottom of the plastic roadbed perpendicular to the track every 5mm with a razor saw. Cut almost to the bottom of the track (you want to leave a bit of plastic across the tracks to hold track and roadbed properly). Then you can gently bend the track piece vertically to curve it up some along the length of the track. This give you a gentle vertical curve to start the grade and not an abrupt 0 to 5% transition at a track joint which will cause you big issues.

 

grades are not easy, they can be really cranky to get right and equipment will each behave differently on them and nay have competing issues/fixes. Get ready to fiddle a lot. It’s why many avoid grades.

 

Cheers, 

 

jeff

[cteno4]

Might see if your track planning software will give you grades if you have input the track elevations at the start and finish. Some will do 3d design and give you grade %.

 

jeff

[cteno4]

Sub roadbed cutout grades concept using your layout top as your subroadbed. Works pretty much the same if you just add a new piece of sub roadbed on top of your layout and support with shims/blocks

 

Basics of grades