layout New layout project: Sakuragi no yu sen

[cteno4]

Cool! If the battery whimpy out there are usually tons of 3rd party replacements out there cheap. May not be as umphy as the brand battery, but if you’re on a budget it helps! Used tools like this are the way to start as usually the tool is fine and will keep on working for a long time and if you do kill it no big deal. An old drill or saw will do great if you put a good blades and bits on them. It’s the blades and bits that you want nicer, new ones to cut well, so that’s where to spend the money getting going.

 

hard to tell in your dowel and bit until you sink a deep hole and drive a dowel. It should slide in with easy taps to not worry of splitting, but you don’t want it be sloppy and gaps then between dowel and hole. It is tricky. It’s not a used practice much any more. Hence if you get a dowel a bit tight you may need to sand it down carefully in the drill. I’d say 8-10mm would be good. also sand the end of the dowel you drive in off at a 45 for a mm or two so that is slips thru the hole easier than a blunt end that can catch on the wall of the hole. Apply the glue to the inside of the hole, not the dowel.
 

again if this doesn’t work well for you in tests you can always screw and plug for the same looks.

 

Jeff

[SL58654号]

The one downside so far with my drill is that while the charger works, the batteries don't seem to charge. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by SL58654号

[cteno4]

Ugh dead batteries… I would return if you can. If not you will need to get a new battery. Problem with second had rechargables.

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

8 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Ugh dead batteries… I would return if you can. If not you will need to get a new battery. Problem with second had rechargables.

 

jeff

Well, a new battery it is then. I don't think they even allow returns, but I still don't want to give up easily on a rechargeable drill I got cheaply.
I had a productive day by getting the four sides ready today. Got my first woodworking injury (cut my hand with a chisel by mistake) but I'm not defeated!
Now that I've finally made the sides of my table as I saw fit I'm more convinced than ever that I'll be happy with my design when it's finished. The ledge of the layout board and foam will be concealed splendidly.
The toughest part, I think, is now behind me! 

 

Since the next major step is to assemble the sides through some technique of joinery, though as to not get so fancy with dovetailing as to get ahead of myself, maybe I'll consider simply joining them through this method like on this Hitoyoshi Hanatebako box?
I would after all like the layout table and all to be a tribute to the culture of Japan is whatever small ways possible. 

Edited November 4, 2023 by SL58654号

[SL58654号]

Small update: after giving it more thought and trying to practice my hand at hand carving dovetails with scrap wood to connect the four sides, I've finally decided to forego that method. 
Instead I'm simply going to miter cut the ends of the four sides. 45 degree angles will do it, then I'll screw or bolt them together.
I want this table to look as good as possible or bust, and I can't start any railway aspects (the fun part!) till that's out of the way. I'm now working with a deadline to get the layout in "running condition" by Christmas Day, since I'll be hosting a party and will have a chance to publicly display my work for the first time! 

[cteno4]

Wise choice sl. Dovetails would take considerable time to do and tons of practice to get nice.

 

so practice cuts on the 45s and also on the screwing together. They tend to shinch up and slide some so you need to get this in your positioning. 90 degree corner clamps also help when screwing together 45 joints like this aa they tend to want to easily move around.

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

2 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Wise choice sl. Dovetails would take considerable time to do and tons of practice to get nice.

 

so practice cuts on the 45s and also on the screwing together. They tend to shinch up and slide some so you need to get this in your positioning. 90 degree corner clamps also help when screwing together 45 joints like this aa they tend to want to easily move around.

 

jeff

You said it. Glad I did NOTHING I'd regret not getting right with the actual wood that'll be used in the finished table. 
I'm just itching to lay the track down and buy foam blocks to carve the landscape out of, and I bet it'll feel all too easy and pass by in a day once this table is finished.
Money and shipping time etc. also feel like grueling delays when acquiring whatever tools I need.  
I'm still trying to gain a new battery for my Ryobi drill set. I'm tempted to buy an off-brand replacement for it. 

[cteno4]

Third party battery replacements can be ok. Sometimes for older tools that’s the only choice if the manufacturer has moved onto a new format or voltage. Best to buy from a place like Amazon so if it doesn’t perform well you can return it easily. The usual problem is they just don’t have the capacity they state. I tried a Ryobi third party battery earlier this year and it ended up having about 40% the capacity it stated.

 

for your drill does the existing battery work? Drills don’t discharge the battery much at all. You can do a ton of drilling and screwing on a charge, so you may not need it right now as not a lot of it to do on your project.

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

13 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Third party battery replacements can be ok. Sometimes for older tools that’s the only choice if the manufacturer has moved onto a new format or voltage. Best to buy from a place like Amazon so if it doesn’t perform well you can return it easily. The usual problem is they just don’t have the capacity they state. I tried a Ryobi third party battery earlier this year and it ended up having about 40% the capacity it stated.

 

for your drill does the existing battery work? Drills don’t discharge the battery much at all. You can do a ton of drilling and screwing on a charge, so you may not need it right now as not a lot of it to do on your project.

 

jeff

The battery replacements I linked to in my previous post are B-1203F2.
My Ryobi drill set came with 1205. Will they work, I wonder? I want to buy those since they're by far the cheapest, and I don't want to give up my drill set since I got that cheaply and the drill and charger doubtless still work. And others have even gone as far as to say I should just bin the lot and but new ones, but if it's not broken, why ditch it? 

[cteno4]

So your current battery is toast?

 

Numbering systems are all over the place on oem vs third party stuff. Usually I make sure the replacement battery states the oem battery number it replaces and if possible the model number of the tool it will work with. That being said ryobi has had few versions of batteries so I expect it should work.

 

only issue could be the charger is old and designed for nicad batteries not nickel metal hydride batteries the replacements ones are. Can you see anything on your current battery to see if it’s nicad or nimh? This is the one issue that chargers need to match battery type or you can have bad problems of blowing battery or worse starting a fire. I ran into this with an old makita drill I was getting rid of. I was going to get new batteries for it to give to a friend but then turned out needed to buy a new charger as well and combine price was more than a new drill, battery and charger. Plus the old drill weighed a ton!

 

you are right an old drill like this could live many more decades of relaxed work. I’ve had Ryobi tools of all kinds for over 35 years and never had one die, they have been a great economical alternative to more expansive professional brands. I’ve only gotten rid of old ryobis to get new ones with better features, lighter, etc, but all of the old ones have been handed down to friends and they live on and on… batteries are the only thing that really wears out.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

2 hours ago, cteno4 said:

So your current battery is toast?

 

Numbering systems are all over the place on oem vs third party stuff. Usually I make sure the replacement battery states the oem battery number it replaces and if possible the model number of the tool it will work with. That being said ryobi has had few versions of batteries so I expect it should work.

 

I think I'll take my chances and go with the cheap 1203 since the sale ends in three days, plus I'm really rolling along with this project now!

Today I think I made a pretty considerable dent in the amount of work necessary to get this table assembled and ready to place the layout on top of it.
It would've taken many months longer had I gone for the dovetailing, but miter cuts it was...
So, with little more the tools you see, I measured twice some 45 degree angles two per side and made a "start" cut with my circular saw, then I proceeded to cut through the rest with my hand wood saw, which came in mighty handy. 

For a first try, though I did leave a little excess to be sanded down with my power sander later, I think they're pretty good for a 90 degree angle.
I also tried out a bit of lacquer which I intend to use for the finish of the wood after it's ready. It's a cheap kind I bought at Daiso. Maybe it'll need multiple coats after sanding?
Next step is to make the drill holes (once I have the batteries) for the screws and dowels to really make this take shape! Sakuragi no Yen Sen Shuppatsu Da!  😄

[cteno4]

Just make sure your charger is good to do nimh batteries as I assume the new batteries are nimh.

 

nice cuts. You can do good cuts with a pull saw and patience and practice.

 

experiment with the dowels in your drill sizes, dowels diameters vary a tad from being tight to loose in its named diameter. If it’s an issue get a cheap countersink and plug cutter set like $5-10 and you can do nice counter sinks to the profile of the screws (bit is profiled like a screw and you can adjust the bit length for how long your screws are). Then you can cut plugs that are perfect (and end tapered a bit) out of what ever wood you choose to either blend in and disappear using same wood and cutting plug from a bit of wood with same color and grain as your hole area. Or choose a different colored wood to make a contrast and appearance of using dowels. The other issue with using standard dowel material for your plugs with that softer cedar is the dowels tend to be hard (birch a lot) and can be tough to sand cleanly flat with the softer cedar all around it.

 

for the lacquer you will want a can and brush. Spraying would take quite a few rattle cans to build up a nice finish. You will want to let each coat dry and then lightly sand with like #200 sandpaper and wipe down, then apply next coat. First coat will suck into the cedar a lot. May then take a couple of coats to build up a smooth finish layer. All depends on how you want the finish to look. Again try some tests on scraps with varying numbers of coats to see the difference and what you want. Don’t get the cheapest 100¥ brush as will most likely leave brush marks. You want a fairly soft brush and clean it well with the solvent the lacquer says to use. You might look at a clear acrylic finish (water based lacquer/varnish) as it smells way less and you can clean well with soap and water. Traditional lacquer/varnish can smell for a very long time and requires organic solvents like paint thinner to clean brushes. While the water based are not quite as tough for weather, they give great finishes these days and way less toxic to you and the environment and your layout is not going to be outside and being in your space acrylic won’t off gas organic solvent for a month.

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

I believe I now have EVERYTHING that I need in my "home workshop" (built up exclusively for this layout) to finally assemble the table:

• Wooden dowels for attaching the legs and allowing easy removable access.
• Drill bit for making dowel holes (of the same diameter) and preparing starts for screwing the sides together
• Necessary screws 
• Screw driver bits

It's great that a hardware store is just down the lane from me!
All that's left is that pesky new driver battery that STILL hasn't shipped yet! 😠

[cteno4]

Make sure to test all your holes carefully for fit. Do some experiments.

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

15 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Make sure to test all your holes carefully for fit. Do some experiments.

 

jeff

Thanks. The hardware store suggested the bit that was closest to my dowels that I had on hand and measured with a micrometer. Good thing I haven't thrown away any spare wood. 

[cteno4]

Yes always test, never trust! 
 

jeff

[SL58654号]

It turns out, in the end, I decided to cancel the delivery of the new battery and I happened to walk into a brick and mortar hardware store near me that I hadn't before, and I bought a brand new drill cheaply that simply plugs into the outlet. Lesson learned; don't buy "junk" from Hard Off... It'll save me more time that way. 
I had a bit of fun practicing with my drill and the accompanying drill bit that I bought the other day and screws on scrap wood. The drill bit and wood dowels are perfect. They don't fit too tight, so the removing of the legs via dowels is "GO"!
The one problem is, my drill doesn't run in reverse, even though I bought it new and it switches both ways. That would make it handier. 

Also, how can I drill at completely straight angles? 

Edited December 6, 2023 by SL58654号

[cteno4]

Well used stuff can have its issues like needing new batteries! But very old plugged ac stuff can’t run in reverse! Life is always tradeoffs, big life lesson…

 

you may need some threaded inserts into removable dowels to pull them. For removable legs I would look at bolts and threaded metal inserts..

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

Well, today I had a good chunk of spare time, and the fine weather made me feel determined to get some work done. I went to Handsman myself today and got a few tools (clamps and a dowel jig for drilling) and intended to finish the table assembly and get it standing on its own legs.
I felt like I was firing on all twelve cylinders and able to get the whole table up an standing on its four legs in a completed state (except for sanding and lacquering) today.

However, I hit a small snag...

It turns out, the one long side closest to the viewer was two centimeters too short... DRAT! 😠 (&*&^%$%^%) *various sailor mouth words*
Measure twice, cut once!
But nothing can stop me now, and the clock to Christmas is ticking, so I'll promptly get just one extra piece of wood to finish the job this week!
Hold on, everybody! I ain't giving up! 

Nevertheless, once finished, this achieves the look of the table on which the "blank canvas" for my Sakuragi no Yu Sen will rest. 😄

Edited December 10, 2023 by SL58654号

[cteno4]

No worries SL, that sometimes happens to even seasoned woodworkers! It’s funny as I get older I have more rulers (and longer ones) that have adjustable stops on them so I can lock in a measurement and even test fit it on what I’m working on and then use it for adjusting the saw or drawing marks. Thinking 58mm eight times in my dyslexic brain can have the end result in a 85 or 55mm piece! 
 

but trying to do a lot fast is usually a culprit as you tend not to triple check your measurement sheet, project parts already done, and your new measurement and marks. I find it useful to do a bit of shisa kanko on doing measurements and setting up the table saw to do a cut. Bit of repeating numbers out loud (seems to help a little with my dyslexia) and pointing at each thing to register like sheet measurement matches other pieces already cut, double check measurement, am I measuring from the correct place, blade placed to cut on proper waste side, right side to have fraying on the not seen side of piece, etc. In all its more than just the measurement, there are a number of place you can screw up a cut all bound together. Takes little time and slows you down to make sure nothing is amiss in your measurement and how you are going to do the cut and the saw setup is safe. Unless you do it all say long every day it’s so easy to miss one little bit. helps with took safety as well for correct setup as another screwup that can happen is as you cut you realize something off and you can do some bad things in that split second of now not thinking of your cut process/safety but about the screwup. It’s humans nature to sort of go ACK!, but that the last thing you want to do while operating a dangerous power tool. Hard to turn that off and power through safely. 
 

It’s funny as when working on little bits on models I rarely screw up like this, but in big stuff it’s easier to.

 

keep at it, lesson learned and actually best way to learn it is to happen with a safe screw up like that! You will remember that 2cm the rest of your life!

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

11 hours ago, cteno4 said:

No worries SL, that sometimes happens to even seasoned woodworkers! It’s funny as I get older I have more rulers (and longer ones) that have adjustable stops on them so I can lock in a measurement and even test fit it on what I’m working on and then use it for adjusting the saw or drawing marks. Thinking 58mm eight times in my dyslexic brain can have the end result in a 85 or 55mm piece! 
keep at it, lesson learned and actually best way to learn it is to happen with a safe screw up like that! You will remember that 2cm the rest of your life!

 

jeff

Many thanks for your encouragement! 
Tomorrow, I'm getting that new piece of wood that I'll need and put it together lickety split.
I at least certainly got this project going tangibly enough that no fatigue will stop me from finishing it by this point! No Sirree! 

Also, I used three screws per corner to secure the sides permanently together, drilling first so the heads will be concealed, so I intend to fill in the holes and make the wood look untouched again. While I'm at it, I;m going to buy some good quality paint lacquer, since the cheap spray can variety doesn't seem to cut the mustard. 

Edited December 11, 2023 by SL58654号

[SL58654号]

Phew! A lot happened today. I was given another lift to the hardware store and thankfully picked up another piece of the same wood that I used for my table sides and picked up a few more items for finishing it (lacquer, paintbrush, caulk)

But I dodged a bullet today! After I got home, I immediately tried to get to work and cut and shape the piece so it would fit into and be screwed into the rest of the table tonight. I had gotten far enough from experience before, but before I cut the other end off at a 45 degree angle for the miter cut, I realized that I had ALMOST made it too short AGAIN!
Thankfully, I noticed I had marked it wrong and put another one at the proper length, and decided to cut and add it in tomorrow. There's only so much that can be done in a single day, and model railroads usually take years... and for good reason. While I'm trying to get mine running within months of first conceiving the idea. 

I'm also practicing drilling with my guide at a completely straight angle so that the legs will fit well onto the table via dowels. 

[SL58654号]

PROGRESS REPORT:
It was another beautiful sunny day in Kyushu, and while just yesterday I had returned to the hardware store to obtain the replacement piece of wood, the fine weather allowed me to hang out laundry, as well as get daylight on my balcony to cut and shape that replacement side piece to allow it to complete my table today!
A lot of lessons were learned from this experience:
for a first try I'm glad I managed to meet all the ends at a suitable angle, but next time I'll get a proper miter cutting jig, and while it doesn't look as immaculately perfect as I might have wanted it to, it's still structurally sound, I believe, and will last and last, as well as do its job - holding my layout, which really counts! And the clock is ticking! 
Later aesthetic touches such as sanding and lacquering will come. As well as the nameplate, but I still need to get the legs mounted via dowels. 

Behold! The completed structure of the table surface on which my layout shall rest! One Two Three Four Sides all in all!

I originally planned on just leaving the plywood inside to rest and allow it to be removable, but since it doesn't add to its weight significantly, and to further reinforce its strength, I decided to permanently screw it into the frame, applying eight screws in all. 

Next, as intended originally, I used caulk to permanently fasten the styrofoam board to the plywood, making it almost look like a billiard table, you might say!

I left the caulk and foam board to bond together and dry overnight with the window open.
(This was foam-safe caulk that I made sure of with a staff member at the hardware store)
Note the excess wood that I obtained for this project to weigh the board down while it drys. You could say that all the wood's pulling its weight!!! 

What a day. 😫
I'm exhausted. I really shouldn't push myself so hard before I really make a mistake of measuring once and cutting twice again! 

...I hope that my progress is getting you all excited! 😄 And please keep giving me written feedback, because it really helps me keep on keeping on!

Edited December 13, 2023 by SL58654号

[cteno4]

Great, it’s together! Yes you learned the hard way, but in a good way you will remember that rushing on woodworking like this usually ends up taking longer as usually you screw something up and the time and money lost could have been saved by slowing down a bit and maybe finishing at the same time more happily and assuredly with better quality. I battle impatience doing woodworking carefully usually as not by a lack of patience but lack of time, but I’ve found screwing up sucks all the joy out of the work for me so best to just let it take longer to get done in my limited time and when it’s done good it’s a really nice feeling in the end as well as having a nice piece!
 

how did you fasten the corners together?

 

for attaching the legs I’d really look at using bolts into threaded inserts or the hidden leg hardware available out there. Using dowels won’t be super removable as many removals will slowly loosen the holes up if you knock them out. Also hard to get things super tight with dowels thru the sides and into the ends of the legs. There are a number of ways to attach the legs to the table and it’s critical this is a solid connection or even a  beefy table will wobble (even more so under its own weight. 
 

I would use bolts thru the legs that screw into threaded inserts you put into the back side of the table frame. You clamp the leg in place and drill a hole (the diameter of the bolt) thru the leg and into the side a bit. Then drill out the hole in the inside of the table side to the diameter needed for the threaded insert (it’s need a little bit bigger diameter hole than the bolt does), then you screw the threaded insert into the hole inside of the side of the table.The bolt can go thru the leg and into the threaded insert and lock the leg solidly to the side. One bolt from each direction in a leg should lock it in well, 3 if you want super locked in. This would be the simplest and completely hidden. Threaded inserts are pretty cheap and m5 or m6 would do you fine for bolts. Also use washers on the bolts. Threaded inserts are an old tried and true hidden fastener that can take a lot of force and are pretty simple to install. You have very thick table side walls to install them in so that’s helpful. Longer the threaded insert you use the more solid the connection into the table side and the more play you have on the length of the bolt to use (you can cheat and add extra washers to the bolt head end if bolt is just a bit too long for the depth of your insert or drill the insert hole a bit deeper than needed for extra bolt length space back there).

 

https://www.amazon.com/PGMJ-Furniture-Threaded-Connector-Assortment/dp/B07Z97R28G/ref=sr_1_4?crid=FEI60VK0JS62&keywords=m6+threaded+insert&qid=1702491225&sprefix=M6+thre%2Caps%2C89&sr=8-4

 

there are fancier corner brackets and bolt brackets for leg attachment out there, but some would end up using screws into the legs which with repeated removals could loosen up and eventually strip out the hole in the wood of the legs. Bolts don’t do this and can apply a lot more cinching pressure than a screw can. leg bracket hardware, while convenient can require specific leg and corner designs and cuts and can also get pricy and fiddly to install.

 

whatever way you secure the legs if you plan on removing and reattaching them make sure to label them on the legs to the corners they go to as hand built like this they will be fairly unique and best go back together in one way even if it sorta fits another way. Also mark orientation. Simple and line that matches up on leg and table to fit properly makes life easier later.

 

keep on moving but again don’t rush, pretty much guaranteed mistakes or poorer quality work then and can take a lot of the fun out of the project.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

With a fancy table like that, all that now remains, is to make an incredibly fancy layout 😄