layout New layout project: Sakuragi no yu sen

[SL58654号]

I'm satisfied with the track plan as it is for my first permanent N gauge layout, but thanks for the suggestion. I'm an avid collector of railway literature of all kinds. 

[cteno4]

The 50 layout book is really exceptional.

 

if you can get some of the track for the loops and try it out running it first to make sure it satisfies you and no gotchas for you.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

• https://www.trains.com/mrr/videos-photos/videos/beginners/benchwork-for-your-model-railroad/

I'm considering just adapting this basic design for my first dedicated train layout table and call it a start. My goal is to eventually improve upon it as I sculpt the layout on top and get started with the railway bits. 

• Or I may make a derivative of this sturdy-looking table, merely changing the legs to much larger beams and have them be optionally removable. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by SL58654Gō

[Jaco3011]

I would reconsider turnout placement, there are two passes that are redundant, unless that's on purpose.

[cteno4]

hi SL,

 

I apologize for raining on the dovetail joints ideas. They are wonderful and look beautiful (and about the strongest joint you can make), but that take a very, very high skill level to do by hand and even with using routers and jigs it’s not something you start on in woodworking first thing. Just didn’t want you diving into the deep end of the pool and getting frustrated with your woodworking early on. I’ve done wood working for almost all my life as my father was a woodworker and started me at like age 4 building things and it’s been a lifelong very rewarding hobby and in younger years even a way to make money. It’s a very fun hobby and almost anyone can do it but it’s a hobby of patience and time, just can’t rush building or skill building or it just doesn’t work. Many approach the hobby in a rush and get frustrated very quickly with it and that’s what I didn’t want to happen to you with the woodworking. And bench work for your layout as it’s he first step in the actual building of the layout, so it can frustrate the model railroading before that really gets going!

 

these simple bases in the article and video are a good first attempt at doing woodworking for a layout base. Simple butt corners may not be as attractive as fancier joints but for a beginner a simple place to start and get decent results. These videos use heavy lumber as larger layouts than yours and you could reduce the frame material a lot to something like 18mm X 75-125mm (or taller if you wish) cedar. This helps reduce weight and get tighter joints. Inner cross pieces can be lower and some blocks around the inside of the outside framing to allow for your inset foam board. At your sized layout you would not need heavy plywood either 5mm will do fine and be lighter and easier to poke holes through when needed. I think your original design is nice with recessed foam into your nicer wood frame, hides ply top and such and don’t mess your nice frame up while doing scenery and such. And it will work with simple butt joints and simple woodworking skills.
 

you could attach the plywood to your recessed frame to make the frame very square and stiff and then just drop in the 25mm (or thicker) extruded foam piece as at your layout size the foam will be stiff, flat and tough enough to lift out and move by itself. If you want to be safe you can glue toe foam board down to a thin piece of plywood to stiffen even more (laminating like this really helps prevent warping in the long haul as well). You will just need to figure out some system to make some screw in handles at each end of the foam to lift out the foam piece from the inset area in the frame. Holes through the bottom frame plywood may allow you to push the foam board up to remove as well without handles of some sort above, but putting it into the frame w,o handles from above may be dicy. One idea would be to mount a threaded T nut in each corner of the foam board and have like 6mm bolts you can just screw in a bolt stick out to grab hold of. In any case it’s probably a big enough layout it may take 2 people to 

 

Another idea to help keep the frame from wracking and stay square w.o attaching your plywood to the frame would be to put sideways crosspieces on top of your vertical cross pieces to make a T cross section and then at each end put a horizontal cross piece that will help square the corners. Bit more wood working but would make the frame need no plywood for stiffness. 
 

legs could be solid and just build little square pockets on each corner the legs slip into and a bolt through the pocket wall into a threaded insert put into the legs. Or check out the table leg hardware out there. There are a bunch of systems for under tables in corners like this to attach legs go and are easily removable with a bolt. This junction is the weak spot in tables so worth maybe buying something that’s well made but easily removable to pop the legs off.

 

on your joints you can also use a counter sink drill to have screws counter sunk into the wood face about 3/16”. You can then fill these holes after the screws are in by glueing small plugs of your wood you can buy or make yourself with a plug cutter bit for your drill (better as you can match the wood and hide the plugs well). You can get the countersink and plug cutter bits in sets usually pretty cheap and you don’t need a super fancy set unless you plan on doing lots of woodworking in the future. you then chip off excess of plug with chisel and sand flat. If you cut plugs out of scraps from your bigger wood pieces you can match the wood very well and line up grain and they almost disappear if finished well.
 

Alternate, more old world butt joint connection is drilling holes and just glueing dowels in. But this requires a lot of care in drilling and inserting each dowel and using clamps to keep things just right while doing things. It’s tedious and easy to screw up and have to start over, not very forgiving at all. Countersinking, screwing, and plugging is much more easier to do without higher woodworking skills and with dowels it’s hard to match wood so you can really hide them so you tend to use contrasting wood to show them off (of course you can countersink and make your plugs out of contrasting wood if you want that effect and it will look like you maybe doweled the joints!)

 

if you end up with joints with cracks or rough bits and/or you dont like seeing the end wood in butt joints you can also just put on a thin veneer skin of wood once you are done with the frame construction. With this you have minimal joint line at each corner and you can choose whatever wood you want for the face. You can also skin the top of the frame as well. You either glue the veneer on the frame or some veneers have heat activated glue on the back and you just use an iron to heat it up and stick it on. Best to get a small hand router ($25-35 for an inexpensive one) and use a flush cut router bit to trim off excess cleanly and quickly. You can do it with matte knife, chisel and sand paper but easy to screw up that way. If you veneer then you don’t need to deeply countersink and plug the screw heads, just make sure the screw heads are flush or just below the surface of the frame wood. Veneering is one of the easiest ways to get a very high end look with out the costs and skills needed to do high end techniques. Also let’s you use more inexpensive wood for the frame itself to save money and usually weight.

 

anyhow just some ideas to take your woodworking up a step from the ones in the video to bring back some of the hand crafted fine furniture look you wanted but do it with fewer wood working skills to accomplish. Happy to explain any of these ideas deeper and provide some sketches or pictures of what I’m talking about. Most of these are minimal investment in tools.

 

basic tools 

 

Electric hand drill

Cheap cordless is fine if on a big budget, but worth getting a decent one for the long run. Go smaller rather than larger if you can. Big ones (especially the construction grade ones) with a big battery are heavy and harder to use until you develop good skills with them. Don’t need a huge battery as not many holes on small projects (not building a house) and adds weight and price. Smaller cheap ones still have a ton of torque!

 

cut off saw

wither a small power miter saw (again don’t need a super expensive one for stuff like this) is very handy but start around $75-100 and they are one of the most dangerous tools around, you can use them safely just have to always be thinking around them and watch some videos for the main dos and donts! Alternative is a larger hand miter box. These can give very nice cuts if you go slow and clamp work in. And electric circular miter saw is of course usually much more easier to accurate, fast cuts.

 

Brad point drill bit set

basic set of Brad point drill bits. These let you get the point exactly where the mark is and the outside edges tend to make a much more cleaner surface cut hole than regular split point bits do. but better to start out with than split pint bits for doing cleaner finishing woodworking.

 

access to a table saw

table saws are what you need if you need to rip any boards to thinner sizes than you can buy. But you can probably buy widths to get you buy as your internal cross pieces don’t have to be full depth to the bottom of the outer frame boards. Actually wound be nice to have little inset to the internal cross pieces under the layout as you could attach cardboard or thin ply to cover all the bottom wiring and stuff. Table saws are bigger tools (can get compact ones) and not cheap. Also take some training to work well and safely with them. They start at about $150 and require some storage space when not in use.

 

you can get decent tools at the cheaper end for just doing a bit of woodworking to cut down costs. Then if you end up deciding you want to go deeper into woodworking you can buy better quality tools up to what you can afford later. I’ve see so many folks decide to start wood working and buy very expensive high end tools and then their interest falls out and they have a pile of very expensive little used tools that just sits there, this was a source of nice tools for me in my younger years with very limited budget to buy up this stuff Pennie’s on the dollar. Plus when you are starting out it’s easy to break a tool as you are learning to use it! Better learn the mistakes of a cheaper tool than a high end one!

 

again yell if questions! Love to see you get started in the woodworking well as you see to like the aesthetic of nicely done woodworking. Takes some getting to but stuff listed above may help you get closer on your first shot and also let you decide if you like woodworking enough to go down the rabbit hole of time to go really high end.

 

while you are playing with track take a look at some of the 50 small track plans and mock them up partially with track. I’ve found I changed my mind many times doing this that what I was thinking of looking at plans and playing with track planning software. Is your coffee table about the size of your planned layout?

 

cheers

 

jeff
 

 

[SL58654号]

@Jaco3011 Those turnouts were meant to be there, as I own both left and right KATO Single Crossovers and want to implement them, but I'll experiment with the ultimate final design beforehand. In my mind the more turnouts the more fun. 

Hello to Poland! 🇵🇱 
Have you by any chance been on the footplate of the Wolsztyn Experience? I've heard that they're sadly possibly ending that experience soon. 
By the by, I like the German design of semaphore signals Poland used in the steam age. 

[SL58654号]

@cteno4 Most assuredly, you did not dampen my spirits at all. I merely made myself think more realistically and I don't want to delay getting to the model railroading itself.
Thank you very much for all that advice. I feel encouraged again to still pursue my design idea as closely as possible, excluding just any fancy dovetailing. I'm thinking about merely borrowing a neighbor's power tools for assembling the lumber, but thanks for the links directing me to those tools. Now, I'm wondering if I'll have the lumber I procure at the hardware store cut to size on the spot, or if it may be better if I size them myself later. 
I feel I'm in fine stead for starting this project already! 

[Jaco3011]

6 hours ago, SL58654Gō said:

Have you by any chance been on the footplate of the Wolsztyn Experience? I've heard that they're sadly possibly ending that experience soon. 
By the by, I like the German design of semaphore signals Poland used in the steam age. 

I've never seen any of the parades in person, I think I may go this year in August. I've seen museums in Wolsztyn, Chabówka and Warsaw.

 

Semaphores are indeed 1:1 German design, some are still in daily use throughout the country.

[cteno4]

@SL58654Gō

 

yes if you can borrow tools great! Also maybe get some schooling from the owner if you are not familiar with any of them. Also YouTube is great for videos of how to safely use all power tools and tricks as well. The links I gave were just for general reference.

 

Store cutting depends on the local lumber yard, many here with give like a couple of cuts for free then usually like $1 per cut after. But the usually won’t rip boards thinner as the are rarely set up for that. The accuracy and quality of the cut though will vary very wildly place to place and worker to worker. Most places say they will only cut to within like 3-6mm of measurement, not perfect as they don’t want to screw it up and have you complain. Also some places and at some times the equipment may be bad and/or dull or out of alignment blades. This is the case with most of the sources around me that will cut so I cut 1/2” larger to fit in the car and then trim smoothly to size once home. Small lumber yard may have one main person cutting wood and if you tell them what you are doing then they may have the skill and take care to make you nice, clean, accurate cuts. But again that may take some looking to find.

 

Another option is to look as see if there is a little local cabinetry shop. They may say sure we will cut up your boards for $20 accurately for you. In a shop it would take all of 15 minutes to cut everything you need, they could even rip boards narrower if needed on a table saw. These guys will know what they are doing and may also even review your plans for you to see if any measurements are off for the cuts. Small shops can have some really nice owners that don’t mink helping out local folks like this.

 

Best thing to get started and even work on your own project is see if any of the local schools have a wood shop and have adult night classes. These are super great way to learn woodworking and power tool basics and also usually get some time in the shop as well. But sadly many places these are going away due to insurance costs. Community and senior centers also may do classes like this.

 

Also ask around maybe a friend of a friend is a woodworker and has a shop. Most woodworkers like helping folks to start on some woodworking like this and are usually happy to help and teach.

 

Before you jump into full cutting and assembly cut a few smaller test bits for the type joints you are planning on making and practice drilling and screwing a couple to get the hang of it, it will pay off for a few scraps of wood. Also a second pair of hands when assembling your frame will be very useful. One person to keep parts aligned and the other drilling holes. Yes you can do it yourself but much easier to mess up having to look at 10 things at once and rub your head and pet your belly at the same time.

 

Again YouTube is a great place to spend a few evenings surfing for basic wood working videos on the type of things you will be doing. Here is a hundred plus videos for any technique you want to do just have to find the most applicable and the one that speaks to how you learn.

 

best of luck!

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

@cteno4 I went ahead and purchased the 50 layout book and look forward to reading it.
As always, your woodworking advice is helping me put my best foot forward. This'll be my most constructive achievement the whole summer.

[cteno4]

@SL58654Gō I think you will really like the 50 small layout book, it’s about the best layout book I’ve ever seen. Love the had sketches at some perspective that gets you off thinking flat track plan on the screen and sketches in some simple scenery/building ideas. It always gets my juices flowing when I look at the book! I think they also may have some ebook add on layouts on Amazon digital, but I could not access them on Amazon.co.Jp from the us, may be an international thing with amazon digital. The chap I think also has a Twitter site he posts layouts on as well. Everyone I know that’s got the book has loved it and gotten them thinking past where they were thinking, so why I strongly recommend it. Layout planning is such a tricky mess of tradeoffs!

 

you are most welcome and please yell if you have a question on the woodworking or an idea and want input on how to make that happen. Tools as well. Like I said most woodworkers are very good about wanting to help others dive in and keep all 10 fingers. Just joking, I’ve been woodworking for five and a half decades and still have all 10, but it is always something to be thinking about and probably why I still have all 10!

 

best of luck with the project, it’s really rewarding when it starts to come together! Just multiply the feeling you got when you put your little cardboard model together!  It just builds and builds! That’s what I love about model railroading is it’s some design, woodworking, electrical work, electronics, modeling, scenery crafting, painting, and of course trains! All stuff I love and so fun to mix em all up!

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

@cteno4 I got the 50 layouts book and I'm not disappointed. This'll help wonderfully in improving the excitement my layout may have to offer. 

[cteno4]

So happy to hear! Enjoy! It’s brought me much enjoyment. Also made me step back and think anew. I like that.

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

Also, over the weekend I attended a volunteer camp, and the bunk beds we slept in got my noggin a jogging for how I'd like the table to be built. Note the recess where the mattress fits in this frame: the same principle on which I'd like the baseboard of my layout to fit in the table and increase its portability. The color and smooth finish of the wood also appeals to me. 

[cteno4]

Beds like this usual use hidden metal brackets at the joints. hidden joints are nice as they don’t distract at all. But they require special hardware and embedding into the wood.
 

The finish is nice. Humans like natural looking wood like this. We just accept it in our brains. As soon as you paint it or put a heavy finish on it something goes tilt in our subconscious. In our professional exhibit work we always try to have very natural looking finishes around any panel or artifact so that it felt right to the visitor and did not distract.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

Hi guys, sorry for the late update.

A lot of changes have been happening, my roommate has moved out, I've got the space necessary back again, and it's time to get started! 

I've decided upon a different layout design based upon the book that @cteno4 kindly suggested, and plan No. 21 I thought would be most suitable and interesting for portraying the rural, steam-era Japanese look that I want to achieve with this. It has tunnels, bridges and a turntable in accordance with my desires. 
By the way, considering that Hisatsu Sen-Again were so kind as to include my photos at our first major public exhibition for the line's restoration at the Kumamoto Prefecture Office, I'd like to make this layout dedicated to them, hence I included their name with the nameplate.

I hope to have it working and nearly finished by the next exhibition we have, and they enthusiastically appreciated my thought to lend the layout for public viewing. 

Plan No. 21 - "Steam Locomotive Layout" from 50 N gauge layout plans 

The major difference is I'd want to replace the highest bridge in the loop with two trestle bridges resembling those on the Hisatsu Line.

 

 The nameplate. What do you think?
Hopefully I set the date for picking up the lumber to build the table this week. 

Edited September 10, 2023 by SL58654号

[SL58654号]

A friend digitally 3D-rendered my plan. I'm happy with the results thus far. The top bridge I plan to replace with the reddish trestle 20-429. Maybe two of them. A three bay brick engine shed will occupy the three roads from the turntable. 

 

 
Water effects to go under the bridges, especially the red trestles, will follow later.

Edited September 10, 2023 by SL58654号

[ED75-775]

Mason,

Looks like you've picked a good layout then. I like the look of the two truss bridges at the rear instead of the single plate girder bridge. I've got one of those bridges myself but it's probably going to end up being a 'what can I do to this?' project - it's already further disassembled since I got the track off it.

 

If you're thinking a three-road locomotive shed, you couldn't go wrong with this Tomytec one which to my uneducated eye seems to follow the design of the Hitoyoshi depot building at a respectful distance. And if you need further inspiration about what you could do to make it look more realistic, you may want to watch Shigemon's locomotive depot diorama video from earlier this year.

 

Only thing to keep in mind, this shed is designed for Tomix Fine Track rather than Kato Unitrack, so if you can't get the standard Unitrack parts to line up I'd recommend switching to roadbed-less track such as the 21-000 Kato flextrack, and slightly recessing the depot building into the 'ground' as Shigemon did.

 

Happy modelling!

Alastair

[SL58654号]

Thanks @ED75-775 
In fact, I've already got that same engine shed. It's just been looking for a purpose.
I already picked up one of the "Hisatsu Line" color truss bridges at my hobby store. They even just brought in the KATO turntable that I'll be wanting later!

 

Now I've got to take the plunge with starting the table, and my friend who made the 3D rendering for me might make one of the table also, which importantly will include the nameplate. 

[cteno4]

Glad the book helped and you found a track plan you liked! I do love the guys approach to design.

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

@cteno4 The book plan is better than my old track layout, don't you think?
I think I'll settle with No. 21 sooner rather than later to get on with it. 

[cteno4]

Yes his plans always do things to help small layout not feel like straight loops. Also his hand sketched perspectives really help the brain think more like it’s looking at layout, not a top down track plan or 3D rendering.
 

one thing to do is if you can with track you have set up and approximation of the mainline (don’t need sidings and all the connections between loops) to test your trains on the grade and with the curve radiuses. Small layouts with a up and over like this usually mean steeper grades and more curves on grades that can be harder. Best to know if there are issues before any construction.

 

this layout has what looks to be about a 4% grade. This is steep but smaller trains can do them ok. It also means you may need to manage the throttle some up and down the grade so as to not have huge changed in speed. If you havn’t run trains on a grade it’s good to play with it as some don’t like them and others love them.

 

jeff

[SL58654号]

Alrighty, Tetsu-Tomodachi!
Tomorrow, I break ground! 😃 Ain't nothing gonna slow me down! 

I'm going to the hardware store (courtesy of my former roommate helping me pick up and transfer the lumber home) and going to get ready to assemble the layout table, which, as I've emphasized before, I strongly believe I must get out of the way before I lay a single piece of track (I won't sleep right otherwise). There's just no more delaying the start of it! Wish me luck!

 

Here's a refresh on the design and nameplate that I intend to make this look like. At least I can make some changes as I go since I'm only buying raw material. 

桜木の湯 Table.pdf

[dotzen]

Have you thought about how you'll run trains on this layout? At first glance I thought this layout was a variation of the 'Scenic Ridge' design, but it's not. It is in effect an inner loop with a big outer reversing loop, and no way to turn the train around again other that the turntable.

Here's my take of the layout that was in the Kato Tokyo Hobby Shop (there's a photo on my thread in this subforum) but with the Kato turntable added.

My setting for this is a heritage railway museum running a steam loco and short passenger cars up and around the local mountain. I know this doesn't exist in Japan but it's a common thing in the UK and Australia.

[SL58654号]

2 hours ago, dotzen said:

Have you thought about how you'll run trains on this layout? At first glance I thought this layout was a variation of the 'Scenic Ridge' design, but it's not. It is in effect an inner loop with a big outer reversing loop, and no way to turn the train around again other that the turntable.

Here's my take of the layout that was in the Kato Tokyo Hobby Shop (there's a photo on my thread in this subforum) but with the Kato turntable added.

My setting for this is a heritage railway museum running a steam loco and short passenger cars up and around the local mountain. I know this doesn't exist in Japan but it's a common thing in the UK and Australia.

Hey! @dotzen That looks good too! What are the dimensions? My current plan is 180 cm x 90 cm.
Where did you find this plan? Any other glimpses of it?
I may reconsider the track layout in favor of something similar to this.
At any rate, the die has been cast for the table surface. I went to the hardware store and I didn't come home empty-handed. 

Edited September 15, 2023 by SL58654号