How to get started with DCC?

[JanW]

I am seeking a bit of direction from the real experts amongst you!
 

My lay-out is approaching completion with the scenery almost done and the trains running analogue. Few things still need to be completed but it is time to start wondering and thinking about the next steps: Equip my trains with DCC and operate them through a PC. 

There is an overwhelming amount of information available in the web, even on the forum. I have no idea where to start. The webpages of product manufacturers are overwhelming and confusing at the least. They advertise bits and pieces with datasheets without any easily comprehensible information on how to put it all together. E.g. Digikeijs and DigiTrax websites are hard to interpret. E.g. what module do you need to control the Kato turnouts? 

 

I do not have a huge lay-out. Currently there are 3 electrically separate loops with only 5-6 trains on it at any moment and only 3 driving at the same time. The photo's give an impression. 

 

I have a few dreams/wishes:

• I like/need to avoid complete re-wiring and partitioning of the tracks. 
• JR style signals are controlled by the DCC system.
• Trains run a sort of time table automatically (by the PC) and nicely accelerate and decelerate prototypically.
• There is sound from the station with the JR tunes, whistles, brakes, announcements. 

Specific questions I have: 

1. I understand that it is nowadays possible to 'tune' the PC program such that the speedsetting of the train matches the actual speed. The software corrects for the normal differences between trains.
   Given that the PC sets and 'knows' the speed of the train, it continuously predicts where the train is with reasonable accuracy. This allows the PC to have a train stop at the platform without the need for train detection at every point you may decide to have your train stopped in future. Avoids a lot of wiring.  
   Of course there is a need for a few detection points to reset the position calculations. 
   
   a) Is my understanding correct?
   b) What PC software does that? 
2. What popular /affordable module(s) can be used to control the KATO 2-wire turnouts? They all seem made for 3-wire 2-coil turn-outs. 
3. Where can I find Japanese style signals that can be controlled by the DCC system? 
4. What about sound, either built into the KATO trains, or by having  small speaker fitted under the station to have the PC generate the appropriate sounds (whistle, doors, announcements, the famous JR tunes, etc.) ? Are PC programs available that allow that to be added? 

 

Any help or directions y'all can give? 

[chadbag]

I am not that far along into DCC to actually do automated runs etc through computer.

 

However, to the Digikeijs question.  I run a DR5000-ADJ control center. To that I added the DR4018 16 channel switch decoder (which handles up to 8 turnouts).  You need the DR4101 switch motor interface in between the actual switch and the DR4018.

 

Works great.

Edited December 16, 2019 by chadbag

[chadbag]

For DCC sound from the train itself, you'd need to use a DCC sound decoder (or dual motor or function decoder with sound) and figure out a way to build it into the train.  Each train would have a different way to integrate it (in terms of the physical bits).  I have D&H decoders (motor and function that have SUSI output and SUSI compatible sound decoders, as well as some integrated ones) but have not built any of them into KATO yet -- just a Fleischmann German. There are other brands of sound decoders as well.  The big problem is getting Japanese locomotive/EMU/DMU/Shinkansen sounds to load into the sound decoders.  Whatever sound decoders you decide on, stay loyal to that brand as you will most likely also need their programming box to load new sounds in as you find them.

 

[chadbag]

For station sound, you could probably drive a sound module of some sort using the DR4018 -- it says "16 light outputs with or without TL effect".  Using the "light output" signal you could drive some sort of sound module or something -- probably with Arduino or other simplified system.  Probably a DIY type figure it out project but probably not that hard.  Or some other DCC module that can output various signals you can interpret on the sound module side.  I would not be surprised if their are some DIY projects on the web you could find and implement or be inspired by.

 

I have not done any of this myself.

 

[EdF]

You can program the sounds at the station with the computer that runs everything else, if you use JMRI you can trigger sounds like triggering any other event.  If you go loconet, signtrak makes some relevant boards, the DAC20 with the kato/tomix adaptors that turn the 3 wire ports to 2 wire.  Does 8 switches, 2 adaptors would handle all 8, and it can interface the a signal board they also sell.  For cost and sound availability I would go the route of station based sound, if you look for 'vvvf' on the tube, you can find most modern equipment (using vvvf).

[Bob_NZ]

Hi 

I have a large analog layout which would be too expensive to convert to DCC,

 

 

so I am also building a separate DCC portable layout - http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/15910-yamakaigan-railway/

 

Both are controlled by Traincontroller Gold which is a leading software package although it is expensive.  To know where the trains are, it does need feedback from the layout.  This can be by isolating rails into blocks and using occupancy detection, or by infrared detectors or  optical sensors.  There are also other methods e.g. magnetic sensors. 

If you want trains to stop at specific positions such as station platforms then you do need at least one sensor for that general location and the software can aid in determining where to slow down and stop.

 

They have an add on program that can handle sound - similar to a home theater sound system or you can use speakers at specific locations controlled by a sound card(s) or third party  devices.

 

There are various ways to achieve the things that you want so it will require researching and you are making a good start by using this forum.

[Keith]

Hi,
I’m still trying to get my mind around a room layout design

 

1 hour ago, gcmr_new_zealand said:

have a large analog layout which would be too expensive to convert to DCC, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKQ3oge8q90&t=10s

That is an amazing layout, what is the room size and could you please post a track plan.

 

3 hours ago, JanW said:

My lay-out is approaching completion with the scenery almost done and the trains running analogue. Few things still need to be completed but it is time to start wondering and thinking about the next steps: Equip my trains with DCC and operate them through a PC. 

Likewise another great layout, any chance of a track plan and room size details?
 

Kind regards

keith

[Bob_NZ]

9 hours ago, Keith said:

any chance of a track plan and room size details?

 

I have posted some information on it:

http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/16303-the-yamakai-analog-layout/

 

[JanW]

12 hours ago, Keith said:

Likewise another great layout, any chance of a track plan and room size details?

Hi Keith, 
Here my track plan. I use RailModeller Pro to design my lay-out. Works quite well, also on my iMac. There is a large library of tracks, turn-outs etc. in all the leading brands. It only has difficulty modelling slopes with the double track items of Kato. I had to do that by hand.
The grid lines are 10 x 10 cm, so you can figure out how big the lay-out is. My room is only slightly larger than the lay-out. I built it on wheels so that I can shift the table away from the wall to access the back.

[JanW]

15 hours ago, chadbag said:

You need the DR4101 switch motor interface in between the actual switch and the DR4018

Many thanks for this very helpful tip. The Digikeijs site does not mention Kato turnouts. Could you please confirm that it works fine with Kato turn-outs? 

Another worry I have is on how to change the turnouts to not switching the not selected track off and how to power the tracks of turn-out while all three incoming tracks are electrically isolated from the turn-out to form a detectable block. 

[JanW]

15 hours ago, chadbag said:

For station sound, you could probably drive a sound module of some sort using the DR4018 -- it says "16 light outputs with or without TL effect".  Using the "light output" signal you could drive some sort of sound module or something -- probably with Arduino or other simplified system.

Many thanks for your tips and thoughts.  Indeed that could be a way to it. 
In the mean time I wonder if it were possible for the train control PC software to interface with the MP3 player in the PC and just hook-up the speaker under the station with the PC headphone jack. Anyway, some digging is needed here and maybe the TrainController software add-on is the easiest way out. 

[EdF]

16 minutes ago, JanW said:

Another worry I have is on how to change the turnouts to not switching the not selected track off and how to power the tracks of turn-out while all three incoming tracks are electrically isolated from the turn-out to form a detectable block. 

There are 3 options;

Make the switch part of 1 of the 3 zones.

Isolate 1 track on all three legs and solder wires to the isolated portion of the switch.

Include the adjacent peice of track on any leg  in the switch's zone and use unijoiner power between the switch and that peice.

 

As to powering all legs all the time, there are screws on the bottom of the switch to allow that on #4 turnouts, #6 always act the way you want.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2019 by EdF
Turnout diffs

[JanW]

2 hours ago, EdF said:

There are 3 options;

Many thanks for your quick advise. I guess it depends a bit on the situation but I may end up having a preference for your 1st option. Seems a logical way of doing it. 
I would be very hesitant to solder on my points , risking melting the plastic bed. 

 

Cheers,
Jan

[chadbag]

4 hours ago, JanW said:

Many thanks for this very helpful tip. The Digikeijs site does not mention Kato turnouts. Could you please confirm that it works fine with Kato turn-outs? 
 

 

They work with my KATO turnouts (at  least the #4 I tried)

[EdF]

Its the same function for both turnouts.

 

[chadbag]

3 minutes ago, EdF said:

Its the same function for both turnouts.

 

 

Yeah I did not expect them to be different.  Thanks for confirming!

[Keith]

10 hours ago, JanW said:

Here my track

Thank you for the plan, it gives context to how much room you need to get some realistic running.

 

keith

[Madsing]

I use the following switch/turnout decoder from LDT: https://www.ldt-infocenter.com/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=en:1-dec-dc. They are designed for Kato and Tomix switches and they work very well with my Z21.

For controlling the trains, I use the free Rocrail software: https://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php.

Rocrail requires at least one, but recommended two sensors per block.

I am currently designing an Arduino-based DCC decoder for the Tomix signals. If you are interested, please stay tuned.

[JanW]

On 12/19/2019 at 4:23 PM, Madsing said:

For controlling the trains, I use the free Rocrail software: https://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php.

Many thanks for the info!
You mentioned you use Rocrail software. I like to minimise adding wiring to my layout. Also on some short blocks in the station, it may be hard to include 2-3 sensors / occupancy detection. So I was hoping to use 'soft' sensors whereby the control system calculates the position of the train based on the last detection and speed information. Does Rocrail allows to implement these 'soft' stop points at platforms? 

Kind regards
Jan 

[Martijn Meerts]

Most software supports a single sensor pre block, some a bit better than others.

 

The most important thing with a single sensor per block is that the software can predict the running characteristics of a train. Most due this by allowing you to do automatic speed measurements so the software knows how fast a train runs at each speed step. Characteristics change over time though, so some software also allows you to set up a block where the software constantly measures speed to see if it's still close to the expected speed of a train.

 

For precise stopping at a signal, or an exact position along the platform (as is the case with many Japanese trains), you'll still want a dedicated stop section / sensor, but that's definitly not a fun thing to be adding to an existing layout.

 

[JanW]

29 minutes ago, Martijn Meerts said:

Characteristics change over time though, so some software also allows you to set up a block where the software constantly measures speed to see if it's still close to the expected speed of a train.

Martijn, do you happen to know which software supports that functionality? 

[Martijn Meerts]

RocRail should support it, so that's a good way to get started.

 

Personally, I've been using iTrain (https://www.berros.eu/nl/itrain) for a while, and that does allow 1 sensor per block and has accurate speed measurements (depending on your digital system as well). I believe it also allows you to specify things like platform length and it'll try te determine where a train should stop. iTrain is a paid package, but you can also get a trial license.

 

I don't have a full layout to use it with yet though, so my experience is quite limited.

[Madsing]

Hello Jan,

This is a link to the RocRail page that details how sensors work: https://wiki.rocrail.net/doku.php?id=sensors_and_blocks-en

They really recommend two sensors per block (to generate two events called "enter" and "in", "enter" is at the beginning of the block and it's where the train will start to slow down, "in" is at the end of the block and it's where the train will stop). This is what I have used on my layout for the trains and it works well.

For the trams, as they are small and more or less always run at the same speed, I have used only one sensor per block. This is explained later on that page. The event is called "enter2in". "Enter" is generated by the physical sensor and "in" is automatically triggered after a fixed time. It works well for me.

As far as I understand, one sensor per block would be the strict minimum. In the case of a platform, I would isolate the entire length of the platform and connect it to an occupancy detector. The arrival of the train (from either side) would trigger the "Enter" event.

I hope this helps.

Marc