Wall Framed Layout

[cteno4]

Yep this is right up a cabinet maker’s alley and uber fast to put together in a good shop, so they can spend a day on it and make a profit where as a carpenter usually working on site on some “woodworking” approach might have a hard time to do it efficiently and thus will grouse... really is a cabinet shop job.

 

jeff

[TRod]

And after it's all done and finished you can put a great big scenic picture of your favorite train on the underside so when it's folded away you have a decorative talking point.

Love the idea, think l might do the same as my 2400 x 1220 set up will be in my shed or garage so this will keep the dust of my set and me outside away from the boss lady.

The gas shocks is a great idea for those moments when you just stuff up. Would save thousands in replacing broken bits.

Good luck, watching on with interest.

 

[Tuga]

On 1/4/2019 at 8:42 PM, cteno4 said:

"might keep slowly asking around about a carpenter. This could actually be a cabinet maker as it’s really the same construction. "

 

On 1/4/2019 at 11:31 PM, gavino200 said:

" But when I switched to calling "cabinet makers" I found lots of places that were super keen to help, and if anything they regularly undercharge me. Just a thought."

 

Ok, that makes sense. It's worth to try it and see if the "cabinet maker" doesn't get "spooked 👻" with the project.  😁

Thanks guys

[Tuga]

On 1/5/2019 at 1:42 PM, TRod said:

And after it's all done and finished you can put a great big scenic picture of your favorite train on the underside so when it's folded away you have a decorative talking point.

Love the idea, think l might do the same as my 2400 x 1220 set up will be in my shed or garage so this will keep the dust of my set and me outside away from the boss lady.

The gas shocks is a great idea for those moments when you just stuff up. Would save thousands in replacing broken bits.

Good luck, watching on with interest.

 

 

I didn't thought about a big scenic picture but two framed classic "art deco" train posters. I've some drawings made with a 3D modelling program, which are part of the folder project that I meant to show to the "carpenters", "cabinet makers" to give them the idea of what I have in mind. Just to make it easier to swap ideas of what might work or not.

I guess I've never got the time to post them in the forum. Ohh well.

 

[Tuga]

After a lot of thought and help from this forum, I ended up with this 3D sketches for the wall framed layout.

Seems that I lost some picture quality when resizing the picture, sorry about that and for the furniture representation. 😉

http://www.jnsforum.com/community/gallery/image/6578-proj01jpg/

 

Edited January 8, 2019 by tavora

[cteno4]

Tavora,

 

looks good! Really is just a big, shallow cabinet turned on end! A good cabinet shop should be able to do this easily. Biggest issue will be doing train table to keep it thin. A good lap jointed waffle of 12mm Baltic birch ply cross pieces on a 25cm cm grid (lots of holes in all the grid cross pieces to lighten and allow for wiring) should give a good structure. You could probably get it done to like 4cm thick and top with 5 or 6mm ply front and back. Probably want the back/bottom to unbolt or hinge off to do wiring easy, but be the big wall surface when layout is raised. Frame on Wall is basically a big cabinet bolted to the wall. Just some engineering for hinge and any pneumatic pistons if you use those to aid raising/lowering. Legs could hinge onto the layout but then they will hang on the wall. I’ve done legs for temp fold down futon bed and also a table by just doing an X of two slats of ply with a big lap joint so the slide into each other and create a leg with a cross section of an X. They spare stable enough to hold themselves upright during set up and a bit more cross section for support and stability than a thin leg. Pull apart and they are easy pieces to store.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[Tuga]

Thanks.

I agree with you Jeff, keep it light is the main goal. The pneumatic pistons are still a question mark for me, once they will take inside space. Hope I will not need them.

The legs hinged onto the layout will have embedded magnets to hold them in place avoiding any hanging. However the cross section X legs is a good idea, specially because of all the bottom access for the wiring and weight. The project looks good but it's not perfect or ideal in some points for all the track and wiring installation. Maybe if done in stages with the cross legs and when finish maybe then and only then accomplish the final look of the project.  

 

[cteno4]

Tavora,

 

Keeping things light, stiff, and thin is the key. This is where a good cabinet maker can get cleaver and do tight work. Your waffle may do at 6 or 9mm ply to save weight. The interior waffle is the key to lock it into a nice flat and stiff form. Using tight edge cross lap joints (like a wine case inserts) can make an uber rigid waffle once locked into a strong frame and top piece with glue.locking the internal grid into the frame with dado joints will help make it all tight.

 

Good thought, do without hinged legs and use temp x legs and then see how the hinged legs on the wall look to you. The hinged legs will make things stick out a bit further.

 

i agree that the pneumatic pistons will be a bit fiddly to engineer in and take some space up. You may not need it as I doubt this will be super heavy to lift push up in place. Could have a simple pully you do up to the top of the wall cabinet to aid in pulling up soothly. It sound just clip on/off just for open/close.

 

jeff

[Tuga]

After all the tribulations and miss fortunes I've gone through the present year, I have finally found the motivation to get my project out of the ground. 

Due to my partner opinion being against the wall baseboard, which I fully understand, once we might have to move house in the future. The project has changed slightly  🤔from a wall permanent feature to a more movable table framed baseboard. 🤨 

 

Drawings will follow soon...

[Tuga]

After scraping the wall baseboard, which was the ideal solution for the room

 

 

I had to go back to the drawing table and figure out how to fit the new project into a fully furnished room, with no extra storage space available to put anything else. 🙄

So I end up with this...

     

Yes, underneath it's a pulling out bed, might not be the best solution but I think it will work. 😉

 

Edited October 6, 2019 by tavora

[Tuga]

After so many attempts frustrating unanswered requests for a quote to get someone to built my table/baseboard, I was left with only one quote of £1500🤯. My initial idea was to spend no more than £500 and that's pushing it.

Well, unbeaten I decided to look out of the box. Start looking around for workbenches, crazy? Maybe.🙄

After going through a lot of the offers online I bumped into a heavy duty workbench that had more or less the measurements intended. Actually had more than less but workable and like Jeff suggested before its better to have more space than not.

This is what I’ve got, it works perfect and the bed slots underneath it. Had a few minor alterations to the original, but nothing that I couldn’t do myself. The worst part was the weight of each piece that didn’t do any good to my old back injury. I am paying the price now with acute pain (electric shocks) through my spine each time I make any bending down, sitting or any other sudden movements.

 

The frame (38mm x 89mm) and legs (45mm x 145mm) is made of softwood timber. The baseboard top (2400mm x 1220mm) is made of 18mm MDF ply sheet (??? I think they mean just MDF), I would had preferred ply for the top but that was the compromise. It’s built like a tank, sturdy and if you think about moving it, well think again.

Overall I’m quite happy with it and worth every penny, £325 delivered to the door instead of £1500.

My only concern is if I should reinforce the frame? Underneath the 18mm MDF baseboard (2400mm x 1220mm) at the middle of it (1200mm) I only have one wood piece (35mm x 60mm) supporting it. Is this enough to avoid any warping? Being a heavy duty workbench I shouldn’t worry too much and just start to enjoy the next step.

 

Now let the fun begin…

 

Edited November 16, 2019 by tavora

[cteno4]

Wow! That’s a good find to solve the situation! Yeah getting custom stuff like this done can be horridly expensive, glad you found an affordable option. Great the spare bed just fits nicely.

 

18mm mdf is pretty tough stuff but it can sag some with time. I’m kind of surprised with a work bench of that size they didn’t do more bracing under it as you are like to bash on the top of the bench and place heavy things on them for a while. Could not hurt running a couple of 18x70mm cross pieces in the center of each side, but does mean dragging it out from the wall to install them unless you use some L brackets to mount them (and that’s a bit of upside down on your back). Best to roll on a coat of exterior flat latex paint to the top so that you seal it from moisture well for applying scenery later.

 

was this a company that makes these or someone’s unused one they built. If it’s a company then I expect they have enough experience with these to trust the 18mm mdf they use. You won’t be putting much of any weight on it except yourself to reach to the back. Speaking of the back could you think of putting it on wheels to easily pull from the wall? Reaching back 1.2m is going to require you to use a stool and one hand down on the layout. I have long arms and 1.2m would be tough for me to reach to the back let alone do any sustained work there. Other option are a using those appliance slides that are a disc of hdpe or other uh wow plastic that slides well (better than dragging the bench supports on the floor).

 

glad you got going here on the layout!

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

 

[Tuga]

This was made by a company that makes outdoor (garden), workshop and industry wooden furniture. For a smaller version of this workbench (not so sturdy) they claim that it is able to support 850kg. God knows how much this one could take.💪

As I mentioned before I had to make some changes to it, specially the bottom shelf which I had to eliminate. I cut the bottom shelve to the same height of the workbench and used it to create a back drop which has been screwed to the back of the workbench making it more sturdy (as if it needed) 😊. The excess from that cut I used to create shelves to put in a cupboard elsewhere in the house. No waist here. ♻️

 

17 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

18mm mdf is pretty tough stuff but it can sag some with time. I’m kind of surprised with a work bench of that size they didn’t do more bracing under it as you are like to bash on the top of the bench and place heavy things on them for a while. Could not hurt running a couple of 18x70mm cross pieces in the center of each side, but does mean dragging it out from the wall to install them unless you use some L brackets to mount them (and that’s a bit of upside down on your back). Best to roll on a coat of exterior flat latex paint to the top so that you seal it from moisture well for applying scenery later.

 

 

 

 

I agree Jeff, at this point I think the only way (due to the heavy weight) is to use some L brackets to mount them on the wall side even if that means taking risks with my back. No pain, no gain. 

 

The wheels were optional but after speaking to them directly and been told that the maximum height with or without wheels would be 900mm, I decided without. Just because I could get them afterwards if needed and at the same time gain some extra height.

 

Reaching back 1.2m is not an issue for me, once I'm tall and have long arms. That said, this is true when my back isn't playing with me, which is not the case now.

[Tuga]

Taking Jeff's advise I was able to reinforce the baseboard with another two cross pieces in the center of each side.  Also used some L brackets once I was not able to move it out from the wall. 

 

Tried the track layout and run a few trains, everything is running smooth. And no issues with my tightest curves in the layout.

 

Next step - The electrics.

 

I’m not going DCC just DC. 
Now, which wire should I use (stranded or solid core)? And which gauge?

Should I use 22 awg solid copper wire for the feeders and 14 awg solid copper wire for the track bus?

What about the original Kato elevated track power feeders? Should I use them? Or it's better to solder new rail feeders?

And what should be the maximum distance between feeders?

 

[railsquid]

Personally I use whatever thin-ish wire comes to hand (not the really thin stuff used for wiring LEDs etc. of course). Provided any connections are tight/soldered well enough, your main conductivity problem will be the rails and wheels themselves, which will build up dirt and require regular cleaning.

 

As for feeders, I currently have two double-track loops (Tomix track) with a running length of about 8 metres each, and each is powered from a single Tomix track feed. Tthis is DC with simple block switching with an unholy mix of random wire, soldered joints, temporary "chocblock" connectors and small 2-pin plugs holding it all together (I am not a professional electrician). It does work surprisingly well,  though when I get round to it I plan to add a couple more feeders at strategic locations, probably close to pointwork as those can also cause conductivity problems.

[Tuga]

2 hours ago, railsquid said:

As for feeders, I currently have two double-track loops (Tomix track) with a running length of about 8 metres each, and each is powered from a single Tomix track feed. Tthis is DC with simple block switching with an unholy mix of random wire, soldered joints, temporary "chocblock" connectors and small 2-pin plugs holding it all together (I am not a professional electrician). It does work surprisingly well,  though when I get round to it I plan to add a couple more feeders at strategic locations, probably close to pointwork as those can also cause conductivity problems.

8 meters length powered from a single track feed 😵 That is amazing even with soldered joints.

I have one double-track loop (Kato) with 12 meters running track. Mine obviously doesn't have soldered joints but it's noticeable that the single track feed that I have looses "power" about  4 to 5 meters away from the feeder.

I'll put some feeders before and after each point but those are the exception to the rule.

[cteno4]

Yeah usually folks do a power drop every 2-3m if you want to be safe. Never know when a single joint can cause a drop on you, but at a couple of three meters you are not far getting power from the other side of a bad joint. Of course the track plan effects this. Good to put a power feed right at the branch point of a turnout that is power routing as the tracks on each branch can’t have a feeder and get fed from outside the points.
 

As squid said, track dirt is usually be biggest culprit of power drops, but a joiner can go bad once installed after a long time with some dirt and oxidation. Scenery application is usually the culprit there.

 

stranded is usually easier to work with than solid core, but either works fine with dc. 14g is plenty for a buss wire on a layout that size. 22 or 24 (what the Kato and Tomix feeders are) work well for feeders to get into track joints and such. You can solder to the bottom of the metal rail joiner or even slip 24g stranded wire between the track and rail joiner w.o soldering. Or cut a slit thru the roadbed under the track with the roto tool and solder to the underside of the track. 
 

Cheap euro terminal blocks are handy to break out the buss to many feeder points at strategic locations and saves having a mass of wiring joints. Thinning stranded ends works well to make good connections and not mash up ends. Weakest part of stranded wire joint though is where the wire meets the insulation, that’s where strands start to break and all the stress is focused at and also usually weakened some fro insulation stripping.

 

glad things are progressing! Cross pieces mean you can crawl up onto the layout if needed and play godzilla!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[railsquid]

9 hours ago, tavora said:

8 meters length powered from a single track feed 😵 That is amazing even with soldered joints.

I have one double-track loop (Kato) with 12 meters running track. Mine obviously doesn't have soldered joints but it's noticeable that the single track feed that I have looses "power" about  4 to 5 meters away from the feeder.

I'll put some feeders before and after each point but those are the exception to the rule.

 

Just to be clear, the soldered joints are in the wiring (e.g. where the wires are attached to DPDT switches), not the joints in the track, and I do not make any claim to be particularly good at soldering.

 

It's not perfect, trains slow down a little on the side of the loops away from the power feed, but not enough to worry me at the moment. I will add more feeds when I get round to sorting out the electrical situation as I'll need to create a couple of extra block sections.

[Tuga]

Following the good advise, I decided to do my power drops every 2m, I should end up with something like this.

 

 

The orange section is the elevated viaduct track.

 

At the moment it looks like this. 

 

also had to cut one of the viaducts to fit the gap.

Edited November 27, 2019 by tavora

[Tuga]

20 hours ago, cteno4 said:

You can solder to the bottom of the metal rail joiner or even slip 24g stranded wire between the track and rail joiner w.o soldering. 

 

20 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Cheap euro terminal blocks are handy to break out the buss to many feeder points at strategic locations and saves having a mass of wiring joints.

 

That is what I had in mind. 😉

 

I don't know about being Godzilla but , I'm quite sure that my layout little people would see me more as King Kong. 😂

 

14 hours ago, railsquid said:

 

Just to be clear, the soldered joints are in the wiring (e.g. where the wires are attached to DPDT switches), not the joints in the track, and I do not make any claim to be particularly good at soldering.

 

It's not perfect, trains slow down a little on the side of the loops away from the power feed, but not enough to worry me at the moment. I will add more feeds when I get round to sorting out the electrical situation as I'll need to create a couple of extra block sections.

 

Ok, I see what you mean now. Sorry to much electricity around here, I guess I just blown a fuse. 🤣

At this stage we are both suffering from the same problem ... lack of power at the far end.

Edited November 27, 2019 by tavora

[Tuga]

Just got back to my train layout, and yesterday I got my retractable controllers shelve done.

 

As you can see I’ve got the Morley controller ready to go. Sitting next to it is the future points and lights controller, the next project.

However I found myself with some questions and doubts, so I’ll need more expertise advise, once again.

 

I’m going to use DPDT toggle switches for my points (Kato ready) and DPDT on-on-on (3 aspect signals), SPDT on-on (2 aspect signals) and on-off toggle switches (lights).

I intend to keep it DC and as simple as possible.

The controller back connections I’m thinking in using this kind of connection

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Futheda-Breakout-Connector-Solderless-Terminal/dp/B07W5Y76SM

but not sure if this will work, once it seems to have a common ground connection.

Or should I use this one instead

https://www.amazon.co.uk/DealMux-5-08mm-Pluggable-Terminal-Connectors/dp/B07ZJP3CVN

 

Hummm… any suggestions?

 

Edited May 28, 2020 by tavora

[cteno4]

Common ground is the shield, sort of a 26th pin. You can use these the same way as the straight board pin connectors in your second link.

 

for your Kato points you have momentary dpdt on-off-on, correct? You want to be fast in the throw on these or they can burn the motors and/or do some bounce back. You can also use a dpst on-on and use a capacitor to do a the bcd cap discharge for throwing the points. Benefit is the pulse sent is jsut right to get a clean pop on the coil and won’t burn the coils with too long a pulse, plus the switch direction indicates the point direction. You can also easily wire in leds to show point direction that way as well. Yell if you want the instructions, very simple to wire up.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Tuga]

Does that means I can just ignore the common ground 26th pin and use the others as normal terminal blocks?

 

Yes I'm using momentary dpdt on-off-on switches for kato points. Already spent and invested too much time on them to change to dpst on-on. 

I'm not an expert in electricity  but ... my Morley controller comes with a Points CDU Ready connection which I intend to use to power the DPDT switches.  Wont this help it to limit the current to prevent burn-out coils?

The negative side of using dpdt switches (as you mentioned) is no led's showing the point direction, but I will have to live without it. 😔

 

 

[cteno4]

Yes you can just ignore it or use if as another connections. Those old 25pin serial cables were 25 signal channels all grounding to a common ground so they just used The frame of the plug for it.

 

sorry don’t know anything about Morley controllers. Their website has no real info on their products sadly (seems to be the trend these days, why bother with a website without detailed info!). I guess they could have a cap discharge circuit in them that you would fire with your momentary switch and i would think then have a delay in it for recharge so if you held longer on the momentary switch it would not try to cycle right away. I remember seeing some large dyi cap discharge circuits many years ago. Issue with cap discharge circuits is to match the charge pulse and amount to match the coil well fire just right, enough for a good snap but not too much where it crunches or overheats the coil. Kato and Tomix controllers do this manually with a spring loaded contact that flips the contact by other contact for a consistent momentary pulse. But with time you find some that end up too slow (and bouncing) or too fast (and not snapping over well).

 

jeff

[Tuga]

Thanks Jeff, I will try to use the D-sub DB25-G2 Male Port Breakout Board Connector 25-pins for the back connections.

 

It's true, Morley doesn't give much away, not even in their own instructions manual. 

Been searching and found this video of a Morley controller, the Vector Zero Two. It shows the insides of the controller and I guess the Points CDU Ready should be basically the same.  It doesn't help me but might bring some light to someone that knows a bit more than me. LOL

 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adtCCWrfEA0

Edited May 30, 2020 by tavora