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Wall Framed Layout

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cteno4

Did a little looking around and it does appear that it’s “heavy duty” which I worry may be for larger gauge coils of higher impedance, thus a much larger pulse that might be too much not Kato or Tomix n gauge points. It probably also recharges quickly (there is a very big cap in the video which I think is a storage cap to quickly recharge the discharge cap) so you can keep throwing points fast, this could also be the label “heavy duty”. Little more description onnthe Australian Morley distributor page. Really is odd so little info is given.

 

http://aus.morleycontrollers.com/shop/shopexd.asp?id=72

 

if this turns out to be the case there are cap discharge circuits out there where you could vary the cap size to the right amount. Tomix and Kato work best with 1000uF cap discharge to not heat but give a good snap.

 

jeff

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Tuga

Hummm... I see.

Got some information that the output is actually  38.6 VDC on the CDU, using the oscilloscope.

 

Can the following be an alternative method?

I also have plenty of power chargers from old phones, mobile phones that I kept for power lights, etc.

Now if I use one of following power supplies

15V - 1.2A (1200mA)

12V - 1.0A (1000mA)

12V - 300mA - 3.6VA

plus this micro capacitor discharge unit (change the existing capacitor 4700uF to a 1000uF capacitor) before suppling power to the toggles, will that work?

https://www.modellingelectronics.co.uk/products/micro-capacitor-discharge-unit-cdu/

 

Edited by tavora

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cteno4

Ouch, yes I think that could toast a Kato or Tomix coil eventually. I think it’s meant for larger scales and beefier switches that need a lot more umph.

 

yep that’s what I was thinking. I’ve seen fancy ones that had the cap discharge with a delay or stop that prevented recharge until switch was off (I think the unit you show has that) and a big cap for fast recharge of the firing cap. I haven't looked at those in a long while though.
 

Jeff

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Tuga

I heard some people are using power supplies of 15V because the throw of the points seems to be better than with 12V.

I my case using the micro capacitor discharge unit before the toggles does it make any difference?

And which capacitor should I use 1000uF 16V,  25V or other?

 

For the led's showing the points position I was thinking (if I go that way) that maybe this ones would do the trick 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bistable-Latching-DPDT-2A-Power-Relay-Module-12v-20v/114143175541?hash=item1a9376a375:g:ESYAAOSwXBFXPrg3

or this one

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Passive-Bistable-Latching-DPDT-8-Amp-Power-Relay-Module-12V-Version-RT424F12/202943892638?hash=item2f40660c9e:g:~a8AAOxyBPZTjXwP

Edited by tavora

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cteno4

Was that with Kato and Tomix points? I’ve not heard folks saying they use 15v for those points. I wonder if it was folks using indicator relays as well (like the ones you linked) as they may need more like 15v to fire them well as you using the same pulse to throw the point and relay coils at the same time. May need a larger capacity cap as well. Sorry never used relays for point indicators like this so no personal experience just looking at the circuit.
 

With the simple bcd circuit where all the caps voltage goes to the coil 12v 1000uf works great and is perfect with the coil impedance.

 

some of the larger cap discharge circuits you use with momentary switches have other circuitry in the that may suck up some of the voltage eventually going to the coil so if you feed then 15v you get a 12v cap discharge out. 
 

for electrolytic caps always good to do cap voltage at least 2x the intended max use voltage. So for 12v use 25v or 35v. Over sizing just means it’s not running as hard and less chance of failure, especially when doing rapid full discharges.

 

if you are going to use relay circuits for indication leds to each point, it would be much simpler and cheaper to move over to the bcd circuit. With leds it’s like £1 or less for each point (If you shop around, maybe £2-3 if buy more full retail) and really simple wiring. Also the spdt switches also show point direction as well and you can get on-on spdt (or dpdt) in a huge range of styles and sizes and usually pretty inexpensive.

 

for each point you just need:

- spdt switch

- 1000uf 25-35v cap

- 2 leds and resistors


You can even wire them up in a terminal block w.o soldering. Or just get blank little pcb breadboards and solder the composers to then using the component leads as pcb leads and the wires out to switch and leds in the control panel and wires out to the points.
 

jeff

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Tuga

 

It seems there are a few people using 15V to make sure that the throwing of the point is 100% successful. Always thought it was wrong but I wanted some advise about it. That's all.

I know now what to do. 😉

Thanks Jeff for all your patience and input. 👍

 

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cteno4

I was wondering on the specifics of the folks using 15v. Was that in Kato and Tomix? Was it with a cap discharge circuit? If a circuit it could be loosing voltage in components in the circuit and be putting out 12v on the discharge. 
 

lots of folks use the simple bcd that uses the 12v and works great and an improvement with 12v and the controller snap discharge.

 

sometimes failure to move all the way is due to bounce back where it hits so hard it springs back a little bit. Very hard to see happen as it’s all a blur, but that’s what trimming the pulse down with a proper cap discharge causes that to go away.

 

you’re most welcome good luck with it all!

 

jeff

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Tuga

Jeff when I mentioned the use of 15v was only with Kato. Which I thought (and right) it was excessive for the points. 

 

I just received the CDU

CDU.png

 

Now, I still have to order the 1000uF 25V capacitor to replace the original 4700uF 25V.

Before I do that, I've notice that in this forum topic

https://jnsforum.com/community/topic/10991-kato-double-crossover-question/page/3/

for the Kato double crossover I will need another CDU with the 4700uF 25V.

Can anyone confirm this? Thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by tavora

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cteno4

Yes for the double crossover you will need a 4700uf as you are firing 4 coils at once wirh those.

 

i wonder if they looked at the 15v wall wart for the kato powerpack and thought it put out 15v.

 

Guessing diodes are there to allow ac power to be used. Transistor and diodes will reduce voltage some as well to the output.

 

jeff

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Tuga

Thanks Jeff. I will order another of this CDU then.

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Tuga

I've been trying some different locos in the track inclines, and got mix results, So, without scratching totally my original layout plan I decided to try something different.

However I have some doubt/question, will it be possible to use the 20-300 crossing with trains running in different directions? Is it isolated? Or it just works in one direction?

 

 

 

Alternative.png

Edited by tavora

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defor

The 20-300 should be fully electrically isolated, although I have to ask, what's the intention between the strange track direction reversal happening here? It seems to me that the crossing should be used to connect the inner track of the outer loop to the inner track of the inner loop and the turnout for the outer loop- i.e. swap them...

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Tuga

Yes you are right, my mistake. It should be like this. 

ALT.png

Thanks for your help defor.

Edited by tavora

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