Wall Framed Layout

[Tuga]

The first hurdle is due to lack of space, so.....

my solution is a wall fold up framed layout.

Something like this....

 

 

Layout base dimensions - 2440 x 1220 x 9mm  (Plywood board) reinforced with 6 strip boards (40mm spaced), probably treated saw timber.

The wall frame - 2400 x 140 x 19mm (Smooth planed timber). The 140mm is still to be decided because it means the total height of the buildings, etc.

The hinges - 4 Heavy duty stainless steel butt hinge (3mm thickness)

Wall anchors - Carbon steel sleeve anchor

Wall brackets - 8 Steel heavy duty bracket 

Layout base bottom - 1120 x 610 x 3mm (2 Hardboard sheet), to cover the wires and frame structure. Also when the layout is closed it looks like part of the wall, might even put some posters.

Open and close mechanism - Under study. 

 

So there is a lot of things to think about. 

Edited January 29, 2018 by tavora

[Tuga]

The track layout started like this 

 

 

and progress to something like this

 

 

if you look close the yellow track is actually elevated track, that's a big hurdle for a wall folded up layout. 

[toc36]

 

Tavora,

 

This might give you some ideas.....

 

Can you reach 1220mm/48"?

 

Toc

 

[inobu]

Google Murphy bed and look for the hard ware.

 

Inobu

 

 

[cteno4]

yep a lot of this kind of folding down hardware out there now days with the small house craze! can be worth it to make things stable. Interesting if it can be done so it can come off the wall easily and not have to stay attached. 

 

looking forward to your project!

 

jeff

[JR 500系]

Wow amazing! 

 

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but please take a moment to read as some factors will come into mind:

 

I thought of something familiar but the open/ close mechanism put me off as time and wear and tear factor in, and the fear of sudden opening via slamming or gravity that will put stress on the hinges and the wall anchors...  That would mean there is a likelihood that the entire bookcase shelf might fall due to loosen anchors in the worse case...

 

How about the controllers for the train? would you have them separated from the layout? These put in more weight, and do consider that while operation, weight might be accidentally applied onto the opened drawer which can result in more stress... 

 

Apologizes for being negative again, but hopping to share with you some unseen issues that might ruin the plan later... 

 

Other than that, it's a great project and hope to see it to fruition! 

[Tuga]

(inobu/cteno4)

 

Yupp!

Murphy bed hardware was one option that I though about but… an expensive option when when still have to pay for import tax in the UK. 

I was thinking maybe a pulley system would do the same job and be more cost effective.

 

(toc36/cteno4)

 

By reach 1220mm what do you mean???

 

Great video and idea but in my case won’t be practical. 

I’m lacking space. Rectangular small guest room with single bed, wardrobe and computer desk, so…. The layout will be unfolding down and stay open above the existing single bed (which has one side against the wall). 

Unfortunately I have to stick with my original idea.

 

 

(jr500)

 

No worries, any suggestions positive or negative are welcome. I believe it’s the only way to get somewhere in a constructive way.

 

Mechanism wear and tear factor. 

This was one of the reasons that led me to the pulley system.

It’s easy, cheap to maintain and you can always use climbing rope which is plus with it’s high resistance to weight, wear and tear.

Slamming is a no, no. I agreed sudden opening ( slamming or gravity) is another thing to have in consideration, maybe I have to come up with a safety mechanism. Again the answer may be under our noses. Climbers have some kind of safety gadgets, right? 

Back to Youtube to watch more climbing videos.

 

The wall anchors!!!

The wall is solid brick so I hope they will hold on.

 

 

The hinges should be OK, as long as no heavy slamming happens, besides the layout will be 90% of the time open.

 

The controllers are planned to be integrated in the layout (not yet 100% sure), but the extra weight in the opened layout “drawer” will be compensated with two or three removable legs which should also in theory alleviate the hinges/anchors existing stress.

Edited January 30, 2018 by tavora

[kvp]

One solution against sudden slam down is to use gas shock absorbers, that would slow down the movement and provide an end stop position . Many car back doors have something like this. Sadly this would leave two arms on the sides which could look bad.

 

Another method is to use a rope with a pulley on top and a winch on the wall. The winch could have a retarder built in so i could not be released too fast. This method also allows easy latching in the up position.

 

For the controllers, i would put the heavier transformers and all high voltage equipment under the fold down layout onto a shelf/equipment box. This would be fixed to the wall below the hinges. Having two fold out legs somewhere around the top/outer corners would solve the in service weight problem as when opened, the layout would form an actual table with two legs before the bed and one edge fixed onto the wall with the hinges.

 

The opening sequence would be to raise the legs 90 degrees out from the storage position (to horizontal), release the winch lock and let the winch lower the whole layout slowly using the retarder (you might have to gently pull on the table first if all weight is between the hinges and the wall, this also makes it safer). Then the legs touch the ground and the layout is level. Electrical connections could be kept connected, so you only have to flick the main power switch on the wall mounted high voltage box. (aka. the shelf with the transformers and the switchable power strip)

[Tuga]

Yes you are right kvp.

I also have looked at the winch with retarder built in. Probably the best option for the pulley and rope system.

Now the shelf with the transformers I was thinking in using some color DC plugs in one side of the table layout (different color for different voltages). This way the transformers can stay at ground level connected to a power strip (and less visible under the bed), with the option of disconnecting all cables from the layout table if needed.

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by tavora

[Drunkenclam]

If you look at sash window technology, They use special balance cylinders these days rather than a rope, pulley and weight.

Of course if it was me, rather than using hinges, I would use something like a central pivoted sytem using a 90 deg hold open closer but in reverse. so up and sealed away is the closers open position.  then pull it off cam and let the spring and valves open it slowly,

would be a pain to construct and even the thought gives me a headache :D

 

 

[toc36]

20 hours ago, toc36 said:

Can you reach 1220mm/48"?

If you are standing in front of your layout, will you be able to touch the back?  This might impact scenery and de-railments.

[JR 500系]

2 hours ago, toc36 said:

If you are standing in front of your layout, will you be able to touch the back?  This might impact scenery and de-railments.

 

I just saw his layout dimensions, it's 2400mm length x 1200mm width. if it's anchored to the wall, with both sides accessible, then he should be able to reach the furtherest side from the sides...

 

10 hours ago, tavora said:

 

The wall anchors!!!

The wall is solid brick so I hope they will hold on.

 

 

 

 

I see... that looks like a solid anchor with a sleeve, should hold. you can check how much capacity each anchor can hold, then you can work out how many anchors you might need... that would solve the problem of the entire wall frame from falling... 

 

I just worried about the opened drawer... if it's 90% opened, please do be reminded off people resting their elbows and weight on the drawer while operating the train... 

 

Other than that, i think this is a great idea!

 

Side note, there are tons of technical issues with these custom cases... i have been through that with my table layout, and the final product was quite different from what was initially planned, due to technical issues... i am glad i hang in there and worked out all the issues with the carpenter and eventually the end product turned out nice and workable! Hang in there buddy, all the issues can be worked out!

[Tuga]

(Drunkenclam)

 

There are a few options out there, the problem is that they are expensive, not applicable or an headache to even contemplate.

 

No more headaches pleassssssse. :D

 

 

 

(toc36/jr500)

 

Yes, I’m able to reach the back of the layout. I’am quite tall, which helps a lot. ; )

 

I’m not worried with the anchors, but more with how to anchor the frame itself. I end up with 3 ways of doing this:

 

1.  Wall brackets  (the ones on the sides are for peace of mind)

 

 

 

 

2. Inside wood board 

 

 

 

3. Inside wood board plus the wall brackets (the wall bracket shape will be cut away in the wood board allowing a flush fit)

 

 

The open drawer it’s a worry, I agree with you. The only positive side is that I usually don’t have kids around. 

 

Carpenter?  Mmmmm I might need one.... ; ) 

 

A little help goes a long way. : )

Edited January 31, 2018 by tavora

[Tuga]

I've been a busy bee searching for an small hand winch for the open/close system that could do the job.

 

Found this two models

 

Wall cable winch 50 KG (Self-Locking)
- Lifting capacity 50 kg                                      - Aluminium die-cast construction with powder coating paint finish 
- Closed, compact housing                               - Corrosion resistant 
- Self-locking brake                                             - Proven safety concept 
- Removable crank, low cranking force           - Not recommended for industrial applications.

- Quiet operation                                                 - Low crank effort

- Low weight                                                        - Removable crank.

 

 

and this one

Wall cable winch 100 KG (Self-Locking)

 

- Lifting capacity 100 kg                                     - Compact and sturdy self sustaining lifting winches for loads up to 100 kg
- Small and inexpensive                                     - For base or wall mounting
- Self locking worm gear                                    - Protective cover for greater safety
- Quiet in operation                                             - No brake ratchets
- Ideal for regular short moving strokes          - Wire or rope option

 

 

Does anyone know other models?

Edited January 31, 2018 by tavora

[kvp]

The second with the self locking worm gear is ideal as it's always in the locked position, regardless of up or down movement. Just remember, that the winch mounting has to hold the weight of the layout too. (it depends on the angle how much, but once the legs are down, the cable could be loosened to get it out of the way)

 

ps: I've seen the first one irl, but imho that has a ratchet, which could get loose in theory, the worm gear is form locking.

[cteno4]

Tavora,

 

if you keep your layout frame weight down i dont think you will have any problems lifting it up or letting it down on the hinges. It’s not going to weigh that much and the hinge side is supported. I would assemble everything and then see how hard it is to gently lift up/let down and then if needed add a pulley or winch to do it. Hard part with a lift or pully system will be the bitter end lifting it up, the last 10% will need to be by hand as things may bind up. You may not need it.

 

i would look at your layout base being an outer frame of 12-18mm x 75mm good cabinet plywood or clear dimensional lumber. Then a grid of internal cross braces like 50mm high. These can interlock wirh some notches like a wine case insert. If you did 1 or 2 Long wise and 3 to 5 short wise it would be quite a sturdy table at your over all dimentions but pretty light. Then sink 25mm thick extruded polystyrene foam panels on top of the cross piece grid but flush with the outer frame. Glue the foam in well with panel glue and it would be super solid. You can drill like 10mm holes thru the cross pieces for wires. Then back the hole thing with thinnest ply you can get with screws so it can come off to work on wiring.

 

for legs look at the inexpensive screw on legs from ikea, but you need to engineer those with your backing panel with cutouts most likely. Or you could just make some free standing supports by two inter locked strips of ply. Just take two hunks of ply the length of your layout height and like 20cm wide and cut a notch half way up the long length in the middle with the width of the notch being the thickness of the ply. Then these just slip together to make an X cross section (again the internocking wine case insert). These are free standing and very sturdy and come apart to store flat. The just plop 2 or 3 of these in the proper locations and drop the layout down onto it.

 

also if you want the layout to be able to come away from the wall you could think of having the layout hinges attach to a board that then can bolt easily with a few bolts to your sturdy wall frame. If the board was the size of your frame board it could just like in on top of the bottom board of the frame and would only need a bolt thru the hinge board and bottom wall frame board at each end as it just needs to lock them together and a 6mm bolt at either end will totally do this. Then just need a second set of legs for the other side and a second person to help move the layout around or back in place.

 

cheers

 

jeff

Edited January 31, 2018 by cteno4

[Tuga]

Jeff

 

Fortunately this is not my first layout. The previous ones had been the “conventional” table or wall shelves.

I agree with you that I shouldn’t need a winch however this is my first wall layout and also the biggest layout ever so I’m on virgin territory here.

 

Your advise is really good specially using the extrude polystyrene foam panel for the layout base. Keeps weight down.

I only worked with extrude polystyrene foam in glass fibre boats and other stuff, no experience at all in using it for train layouts. I would use it for a “conventional” table layout but not sure if I should in this case.

I was thinking in doing the outer frame and inside grid of 19mm x 38mm clear dimensional lamber, and a 2440mm x 1220mm x 9mm plywood board on top.

This means more weight but I think it's better with plywood.

I might be totally wrong 

I will follow your advise for the legs  - X cross free standing supports. 

 

 

Kvp

 

I’ll keep in mind your advise/opinion. ; )

Edited February 1, 2018 by tavora

[cteno4]

Tavora,

 

the extruded polystyrene has really taken off for a layout base material as its so easy to scoop into it to do a little downward scenery. light weight is a huge help in many situations as well! folks use caulk or white glue to our first club layout was made up of modules of 2'x4' units 2" high that was just a frame of 50x18mm stock and a piece of 25mm foam board in it. then two small cross wood strips under the foam board the short side, these were more for having a place to place supports than for structural support. they were amazingly rigid and light and got the crap kicked out of them at shows for like 6+ years. some are still bolted together in my shop to make 2 8'x2' vertical wood storage shelves!

 

Might look at making the outer frame deeper and insetting the plywood and polystrene sheet into it.so you have a good hard edge all the way around it and also pretty with smooth edge. you would need some small corner bracing material along the inside of the outside frame to attach the ply to the outside frame (like 12mmx12mm stock) really the ply could probably be thinner if you do a bit deeper frame to cut down on weight. you only need like 1" depth under the base material for wiring. if the frame is rigid enough you would not need ply i bet, the foam would probably do the trick. also if you put the thin backing ply on it to hide the underside when up on the wall then it should be quite solid. might look at paneling materials out there for the bottom cover sheet as many are pretty and light and engineered to not sag with attached to limited framework behind them

 

if you can i would look at doing a long cross piece as well. if you can do the notches to interlock this long one (or two even better) with the shorter ones it really makes a very rigid frame that does not need much height or heavy ply to stay nice and flat. also the smaller the open areas the less noise you get with thinner top ply. i made some of these for one of our club members that each was about a third of yours (he made his in smaller sections that can just bolt together to rearrange if he wants later and also a whole lot easier to transport home from the shop here!) they were 20mm high 12mm 7 ply baltic birch ply for the frame. did the interlocking internal cross braces and then topped with 4mm luan ply. finished all the outside edges with 25mm wide cherry veneer stripping to make purty. the were really light and rigid. 

 

 

dont know how much woodworking you do but making the dado joints for the grid frame is not super tough and can be done with a hand circular saw and square. trick is to clamp your pieces together and cut them all at once then things lock up really perfectly. if you make a booboo and cut a shave to wide or deep on the notches then you can always shim with some thin wood shims and glue. also little corner blocks in the frame corners and even at the cross piece joints can also really tighten up the frame. Over the years ive tried to pull back on heaviness of materials for more engineering for strength as lightness also helps in so many ways even in it just supporting itself and in your situation lighter is better to put it up on the wall.

[Tuga]

Thanks for all your tips Jeff. 

I always be an handy guy, but 10 years ago I moved house and had to leave all my tools behind. 

The layouts I made in the past were made with the minimal/basic tools. Some of them have seen better days. 

Hand circular saw and square??? 

More like a basic hand saw.        

 Wish I had your tools Jeff, you look/are a professional mate. 

[cteno4]

Yeah too many tools here, bought up in a shop my dad always had! 

 

An inexpensive or second hand small circular saw and a rafter square are really really handy and probably the most useful and inexpensive of power tools you can get outside a drill. Those sets of a small circular saw and a drill with rechargeable batteries and chargers go on sale a lot and are really versatile to do a lot of woodworking with. Handsaw is going to be challenging to craft this setup, but hey look at what they built in the past with handsaws!

 

jeff

[Tuga]

Any maker or model suggestion for a hand small circular saw ?

[cteno4]

Don’t know if the same selection in the uk as the us. For cheap I have the ryobi set (it’s mostly sold thru Home Depot big box stores here in the us). They usually have a $99 set of 18v Li ion drill and 7.25” circular saw with anbattery and charger. The drill is my all around drill and gets a lot of use drilling a driving. The little circular saw can cut a 2x4 but I would not want to do a lot of heavy cutting, but fine for cutting ply or 3/4” lumber. The nice thing is it’s small and light to do detail work. And for the price and decent quality a very good deal. Other big brands like dewalt, Mikita, porter cable here have higher quality and priced stuff. While built a bit sturdier and better quality, if funds are limited and you aren’t doing

 

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Ryobi-18-Volt-ONE-Lithium-Ion-Starter-Combo-Kit-2-Tool-P825/203466900

 

For doing heavier ply or lumber or doing a lot of it then a bit heavier duty plug in 7.25” circular Saw would be best. These start about  $69 and go on up. Corded one has the torque to rip thru anything but are a bit heavier and larger usually. Take a look at the reviews on Amazon.uk or tool shop in the uk and you can probably figure out the best quality for the level you can afford. I usually look at the bad reviews for anything consistent or some detail that would be bad for my use, but there will always be a few percent that are just negative for one unreasonable thing or another or just bad luck.

 

last corded circular saw I got was the rigid. I got it as well reviewed and decent priced and it had a nice cast baseplate as most are just bent metal and can come out not totally flat or one drop can tweak them. 

 

Othe option youll see on the circular saws is plunge option that lets you plunge the blade down into the piece. It’s only really useful in some situations (probably not in building your table), can be a little fiddle and bulky (depending on design) and will push up the price. You probably don’t need this.

 

its hard with tools with which level to buy. While having the best one is great, most of us can afford to buy the top quality one all the time for a hobby. Also it can be a waste if you are not using the tool that much. I try to evaluate which tools I really use a lot and will benefit a lot by going up in price for long life and or precision and of course what I can afford! The main tool I use the most in the shop is the table saw and I spent s butt load on my new one and wished I had done it 15 years ago! Second is the hand drill and those Ryobis have worked fantastically for the last 20 years. Only thing that does are the batteries eventually ans the dang chargers (cheap electronics but even some higher brands have this issue) but the drills keep going on and on!

 

I’ll have a look on amazon uk later and see if I can see some of the models you can get and if one looks like it’s the decent combo and not horribly priced.

 

but to get back into this sort of carpentry a good drill and circular saw are the two critical tools and they don’t take up a lot of storage space nor expensive.

 

decent rafter square and a clamp are great to get clean, square cut in dimensional lumber. For ply wood a straight strip of wood and 2 clamps will get you clean and straight long cuts. Good larger square for making sure they are square when you measure. You can get Long bar clamps that do the same trick as a strip of wood and 2 clamps just easier to set up, but cost a bit more.

 

yell with questions there are a few other workworing types on the forum as well!

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

jeff

[Tuga]

I guess I couldn't ask for a better answer and advice. Now I know what to look for. 

 

Can anyone tell me what is total height of the Kato 23-125 Viaduct Station with and without the catenary?

 

I need to figure out the width needed for the wall frame structure. I've been trying to sketch up the all project on my mac and make all the alterations needed before I start the real thing. My brain is loaded with ideas and my head is like a washing machine rotating at full speed... so the sketch has changed several times. 

 

 

[kvp]

20 minutes ago, tavora said:

Can anyone tell me what is total height of the Kato 23-125 Viaduct Station with and without the catenary?

I don't have this set, but the top of the viaduct plate is at 6 cm, the height of the station is double of that (and the wall height equals with the height of the island platform roofs), so 12 cm and the wire height of the catenary masts are slightly above of that height, so the total height must be less than 18 cm. Or bottom plate height + catenary pole height = 6 + 7.5 = 13.5  cm, but i would use at least 15 cm clearence to be sure.

[cteno4]

Tavora,

 

i would suggest you think about mounting your double viaduct onto some thin ply (like 3-5mm) and then mount that using wooden piers you can screw down. Just cut the ply to just shy of the bottom outline of the double viaduct. Then you have a raised platform the double viaduct can get screwed down to.

 

I’m not sure how well the standard system will hold up flipping it vertical. You will need to screw or glue down the kato piers. On our club’s last sectional layout we had issues on the modules that had double viaduct attached to glued down kato piers, they kept breaking off. We had some transport stress (like vibration in cars) and some layout assembly stress when popping sections together, but it showed how loose the system all was — fine for just a table top setup but not engineered to get pushed around. I fear your vertical hanging and transitions may give similar stress. The glue joint getting all it’s stress at a perpendicular angle to the joint is also the hardest on the joint. Epoxy would probably hold them in place well enough but I don’t know if you want to get that permanent!

 

the modules that had the double viaduct screwed down (curves and the large station) were rock solid for 7 years. On our new sectional layout we are using the ply base under all the double viaduct. For now I’m just making the pretty boring but standard vertical caisson pier for time sake, but since it’s all screw together we can easily pull it up and replace with some variants at some points later.

 

cheers

 

jeff