MicroAce F0002 TN coupler upgrade = useless

[katoftw]

My used Isaburo-Shinpei came with Tomix TN couplers fitted by the seller.  Personally I do not like the closeness of the couplers.  My Ibusuki no Tamebako came new and still with factory rapidos.  I prefer these.  If I was using curve radi bigger than 280-317mm, then the close couplers would be fine.

[kvp]

A high grade set:

http://onlineshop.modellbahnunion.com/New-announcements/Electric-train-Series-103-yellow-ATC-version.htm?shop=union_e&SessionId=&a=article&ProdNr=92543&t=6812&c=6812&p=6812

 

All new high grade sets are factory fitted woth TN-s. Usually there is a normal base set with optional bookcase and a full HG set in a book. Many times HG sets have extras too like replacable lighted destination boards instead of stickers.

[JR 500系]

Why don't you just buy the factory installed TN coupler versions instead? (like the Tomix HG sets)

 

Ah yes I know about those factory fitted TN couplers on the Tomix HG sets, problem is there isn't many of them, especially for commuter trains. And commuter trains do get long, like say E231-500 is 11 cars, E231-1000 is 15 cars, E231-0 Joban is also 15 cars even a regular set like the 209-500 or E231-0 on the Sobu or the E233-0 on the Chuo is 10 cars long and that's 18 couplers or 3 sets.. and that is a lot of couplers to be replaced...

 

If there is like a HG E231-500 or E233-0 or 207/ 321 series that would be nice... Otherwise it would seem Kato is more cost effective by having factory fitted coupler that are quite close together in order to bridge those gaps especially like the Tomix/ MA hideous Rapido ones between these couplers...

 

Oh yah... If one is into rare commuters or subways like Toei or Seibu or Keio and only MA makes them, and MA doesn't seem to have any HG sets...

[katoftw]

That came up in a previous thread.  You can say "buy HG" all you want.  But they don't cover many models.  The HG term is a bit of a con.  Additional items included for an extra price.  Still makes it no different from normal models or manufacturers.

 

Rapidos is something you just have to live with if you wanna buy Tomix.  Same if you wanna buy MicroAce or Greenmax.

 

Same with fitting you own number decals, but that is a pro or a con depending on whom your are.

 

In general Tomix is cheaper than Kato for a comparable models.  The difference might be the couplers.

 

But not always the case.  I researched the JRW 321 series before I brought my Kato version.  7 cars in Tomix cost 1,000 yen more, and you still need to buy another 3,000 of couplers.  The Kato version come standard with tight lock couplers.  4,000 extra for CL feature? No thanks.

 

IMHO, I think Tomix are well above all others when it comes to Shinkansens.  Kato rules the roost when it comes to EMU city commuters.  It is about 50/50 on interurban limited expresses (although the coupler issue arises here again if not buying HG sets).

 

It all comes back to the same answer we all give when we have the monthly Kato vs Tomix battles.  The simple answer is, each does something better than the other.  Pick one that has better features that suit yourself.

 

Some will have clouded or one sided opinions, cos they are true fans of only one manufacturer.

Edited August 8, 2015 by katoftw

[JR 500系]

 

But not always the case.  I researched the JRW 321 series before I brought my Kato version.  7 cars in Tomix cost 1,000 yen more, and you still need to buy another 3,000 of couplers.  The Kato version come standard with tight lock couplers.  4,000 extra for CL feature? No thanks.

 

 

You brought up an interesting point about CL feature. Doesn't Kato works with the CL feature? I recall my Kato sitting in the station with the lights on...

[katoftw]

I wouldn't know.  But I would ask if it was all lights on, or just the correct directional light on?  Kinda like when you put a DC train on a DCC layout, all the lights come on, head, tail, interior.

 

Sometime I plan on buying a few Tomix controllers.  Since they are now supporting 100-240V, it is now a cheaper option to buy a Tomix controller, and a $3 AUD JP to AU plug convertor.  Than buy a Kato controller, throw away the JP transformer and buy a $36 AU transformer.  I will trial it someday.

Edited August 8, 2015 by katoftw

[JR 500系]

Yap. The Kato cars work just fine with the CL, as in they move and get lighted all up including interior lights (by Kato too) and directional head lights at the station when stopped.

 

This makes Kato deal a little sweeter, with their default factory tighter couplers over Tomix Rapido ones. Since there are choices over certain commuter models such as E231-500 (which I would require) and others like E233, 321 etc. which both makers make, the couplers and sometimes destination and car numbers printed gave Kato the sweeter deal over Tomix for having to buy more TN couplers...

[kvp]

Actually thinking about it, almost all of my recent Tomix made non Tomytec trains are HG sets. Only two JREast commuters and two JNR sets are in a book and without factory installed TN-s and the two commuters are both extended basic sets bought in separate 1-3 car boxes. Actually lately it's quite hard to not buy TN installed sets as even small 3 car sets come with them. (like the JRCentral emu that was just announced)

 

The price difference between a cheaper Tomix with rapidos and a more expensive Kato is mostly the price of the couplers as Tomix HG sets cost around the same as normal Kato-s. Both are CL compatible, as any LED based lighting circuit with a filter cap in it is compatible. This includes most european made trains.

 

My point is that you will have to pay the same price for a manually upraded Tomix set, a Tomix HG set and a Kato set. Tomix HG sets usually also come factory numbered like most Kato-s (in this case, the consist id is also indicated on the box). But you have to be careful, as you can't connect a Kato/Greenmax and a Tomix/Tomytec/MicroAce set unless they both use rapido-s, so you have to choose one group for trains that you might want to run coupled.

[VJM]

I just got in Tomix 98932, the 115-1000 Yokosuka set.  Not HG, but full limited edition book set.  Rapido couplers on the bogies.  I bought 2 packs of the replacement TN body mounted couplers, but the bogie mounts are in the way.  I now have to snap them off - unless someone can tell me how to take them off without damaging them.  VERY annoyed.  The same thing from Kato has scharfenberg couplers pre-installed.

[JR 500系]

Ahah! I totally understand what you mean VJM san. I got my limited edition Benetsu Monogatari and still they come with Rapido couplers...  

 

The thing with the newer sets is when you change to TN, you have to snap off the original bogie rapido couplers that are firmly connected to the bogie...That makes the process ir-reversible, so if 1 day you wish to remove that TN and go back to the Rapidos you cant...

 

I snapped a lot of Rapido couplers from my Tomix E231-1000 10 car sets...

[HantuBlauLOL]

Also you can make your own CL easily as long as you can solder things. I've done my research, and it works.

 

Total cost for the controller is no more than 20$, and the lighting unit per car is about 1$.

[VJM]

 

I snapped a lot of Rapido couplers from my Tomix E231-1000 10 car sets...

 

I shouldn't be required to damage a model in order to upgrade it. :cussing:

[kvp]

 

I shouldn't be required to damage a model in order to upgrade it.

Then never buy Tomytec kits either. There, you are required to manually cut off the sideframes from the molding sprue and even have to drill a hole or two to install add on parts (or just glue them on if you are lazy). On the other hand, if you want to add body mounted couplers to a Kato unit, then it's much messier.

 

Anyway, it's possible to remove the couplers in a way that allows you to replace them later, but it's much easier, faster and better looking to just snap the whole mounting off. On the Tomytec models, it's possible to swap between TN and bogie mounted rapido couplers on the fly without tools. It's even possible to add 3rd party NEM coupler sockets on most of them. Personally, i don't understand either why they don't use the Tomytec method on bogie mounted rapido equipped Tomix sets. It would make up- and downgrading easier and faster and you could change the coupler length of the rapidos too, which would allow Kato level close coupling with simple rapidos. (which is possible on the Tomytec cars)

[VJM]

Then never buy Tomytec kits either. There, you are required to manually cut off the sideframes from the molding sprue and even have to drill a hole or two to install add on parts (or just glue them on if you are lazy).

 

That's rubbish.  They are kits - you purchase them with the express intention of having to do work on them.  Actually, I've never had to cut the sideframes included with the models because the appropriate ones are provided with the recommended motor unit.  In fact, the molding sprues are again, expressly intended for you to cut things from them. 

  

 

Anyway, it's possible to remove the couplers in a way that allows you to replace them later, but it's much easier, faster and better looking to just snap the whole mounting off

 

How do you remove the Arnold couplers on say, the 115 series or Banetsu Monogatari cars without snapping the bar off?

[kvp]

 

Actually, I've never had to cut the sideframes included with the models because the appropriate ones are provided with the recommended motor unit. 

Many times, but not always and the motor unit ones also come on a sprue. As many detail parts included with standard sets.

 

the molding sprues are again, expressly intended for you to cut things from them.

Apparently the Tomix couplers are also meant to be cut at a certain location as the front bogies are often standard ones with the rapido removed and a TN installed behind the front skirt.

 

 

How do you remove the Arnold couplers on say, the 115 series or Banetsu Monogatari cars without snapping the bar off?

Usually you take off the metal box, remove the spring and the coupler. This lets you install the rapido again. But i don't have a banetsu monogatari set, so it could have a different coupler. On some sets, the holder can get in the way of the TN, so you have to turn the bogie around. Cutting it off at the base looks way better. The SL coaches are probably rapido equipped, so you can shunt them and even remote uncouplers can be used. (the rapido couplers have a small pin on the bottom that can be used to lift them with a static or moving uncoupler plate) This is why there is an older Tomix set where the two motorised half sets have rapidos between the coupled front cars and TN-s on the outside ends, so you can remotely uncouple them at a station platform.

 

 

They are kits - you purchase them with the express intention of having to do work on them.

The same is true for a rapido equipped set if you intend to upgrade. Also i don't really understand why is it so bad if you can't downgrade it after adding the TN-s and choosing to completly remove the rapido holder arms. Modelling is about building things. If you want a set that is perfect out of the box, you can get the HG sets, they have the car numbers, destination boards and everything else added in the factory and come pre equipped with TN-s. The idea is that if you don't have the car numbers already printed onto the cars, then it's sure that some construction work will be required to completly detail and upgrade the sets. Tomix seems to be more oriented towards the layout and train set builders and people who like to run their trains. This is why the whole Tomytec brand exists.

 

ps: As i said, Tomytec style removable rapidos would be great. The same is true for power routing or remotely uncouplable TN-s. (i do have power routing body mounted close couplers on a british prototype Arnold emu, so it's possible, and also have an old Arnold lok with remote uncoupling built right into the locomotive, so it can be disconnected anywhere without touching it)

[katoftw]

How is the end car of the Ban-etsu Monogatari done?  It seems to have a normal bogie and a body mounted coupler?

[200系]

This thread took quite a turn in a short period of time, interesting.

 

 

 

 

Actually lately it's quite hard to not buy TN installed sets...

 

Actually it is, like mentioned only the HG sets come with body mounted TN couplers, and the majority of Tomix's releases over the past year are non-HG sets. The HG sets that are released are split between J.N.R. equipment and J.N.R. era equipment surviving at one of the JR companies (and not even all J.N.R. era equipment is up to HG standards), with no contemporary equipment covered by the HG brand at this moment.

 

Second, if you'd paid attention over the years you would've noticed that a large section of this forums members (including JR500系, the user you first responded to) are more interested in contemporary or near contemporary models, which is exactly the category Tomix hasn't produced any HG sets for. 

 

The following link points to the Tomix production schedules (only new releases, doesn't seem to include re-releases) for both this year and the past year:

 

http://www.tomytec.co.jp/tomix/menu/index_shin.htm

 

N先月までの新製品 points to this years production schedule while N昨年の新製品 points to last years production schedule.

 

Note the overabundance of non HG sets, and the lack of HG sets for the contemporary models.

 

 

 

 

... as even small 3 car sets come with them. (like the JRCentral emu that was just announced)

 

I assume you're referring to the upcoming 373系? If so you're wrong, as only the front couplers of the end cars will be fitted with TN couplers to allow the coupling of different formations, the normal cars however will still be fitted with Rapidos. From the Japanese HS site: 

 

-先頭部ＴＮカプラー(SP)装着済み (TN couplers have already been installed for the leading unit)

 

and in the optional parts section:

 

-ＴＮカプラー：＜0337＞密連形(グレー)  (TN Coupler, dense continous type (Gray version)

 

The same is also mentioned at the English site, and even with the machine translation they use, it's still pretty clear what they are getting at:

 

- Top part TN coupler (SP) has been installed.

 

- TN coupler: <0337> Mitsuren-gata (gray)

 

 

 

 

 If you want a set that is perfect out of the box, you can get the HG sets, they have the car numbers, destination boards and everything else added in the factory and come pre equipped with TN-s.

 

First: no they don't, not even close. If you don't count add-on sets, I own eight Tomix HG sets (Two 72系 formations, two 103系 formations, a 167系, 183系, 485系 and 583系 formation) and only the three JR East limited express sets came with printed car numbers and destination boards attached from the factory. The other five still need the car number decals applied, destination/train number boards applied (only the 103系 and 167系 have destination boards and train number inserts, the others still use stickers) and a few other parts need to be separately installed as well. With the 485系 and 583系 for instance, I still had to install the J.N.R. Limited express crest on the front of the end cars. I love Tomix HG, but sometimes even I wonder, outside of the TN couplers, what criteria a set has to meet in order to be considered HG (i.e. some of the limited edition sets feature almost the same level of finish as the best of HG sets, while some of the HG sets are no different (with exception to the couplers of course) to a regular set.)

They all come with body mounted TN couplers though, you're right about that. 

 

 

 

On the other hand, if you want to add body mounted couplers to a Kato unit, then it's much messier.

 

While that may be true, the advantage with Kato in this instance, is that all of their newly developed models from the past decade, and even some of their renewals, come equipped with their body mounted TN couplers, while the models left with Rapido couplers are mostly limited to some of the older models they still produce (103系, some versions of the 115系, 185系, 205系, 211系, 0系 and 200系, from the top of my head, there might be a few more I missed) with corresponding lower prices. While Tomix still sticks with the Rapidos for most of their new models (let's not even start about MA).

Kato also has a drop in replacement for the Rapido couplers with their 'tight lock' couplers. Though not nearly as good looking as the TN couplers they are still able to improve the look of one of those older models for a fraction of the price (400 yen for a set of 20).

 

 

 

 

The price difference between a cheaper Tomix with rapidos and a more expensive Kato is mostly the price of the couplers as Tomix HG sets cost around the same as normal Kato-s

 

No it doesn't, it's not even close. In general Tomix is slightly more expensive for a similar formation compared to a Kato one. This goes for both the 1067mm EMU's and the Shinkansen (odly, the only section where Kato is more expensive seems to be with locomotives).  

 

Let's make a comparison for the Yamanote-sen E231系's.

 

-The list price of a Kato E231系 4 car basic set comes in at 10,600 yen, or 2650 yen per car

-The Tomix E231系 3 car basic set sells for 9,600 yen, or 3200 yen per car.

 

If you look at the price of a full 11 car formation the differences become even more obvious:

 

-28,520 Tomix

-24,500 Kato

 

With the Kato model you get, printed car numbers (for Tomix only the 3 car basic set comes with pre-printed car numbers) , printed pictographs and other printed details and body mounted TN couplers all for 4020 yen less.

 

That's for a non HG set, with the HG sets the difference

 

-Kato 583系 6 car basic set (2014 new release): 19,200 yen

-Tomix HG 583系 6 car formation (formation N1/N2 2011 release) 22,000 yen

 

Now, I own both sets (the Kato one in a 13 car formation though), and I love them both, but they are more or less comparable to each other with neither one really better then the other (the Tomix HG version has slightly nicer pantographs, while the Kato version has a few more details factory installed), but that doesn't change the fact that the Kato model is still 2,800 yen less then the comparable Tomix HG model.

 

Now don't get me wrong, I didn't post this to rag on Tomix or Tomix HG. I love Tomix HG and I fit perfectly in their (presumed) target audience (collecting J.N.R. era equipment, don't care too much about the price as long as it fits my budget, appreciates the extra attention to details and the feel of those sets(including the extra attention to the case itself)), but there has been so much misinformation flying around in this thread, that it's difficult not to respond in such a way.

 

As for me, even though I have a slight preference for Kato (for both 1067mm, and Shinkansen stock) and Tomix HG, I'll gladly pre-order any model from Kato, Tomix (HG) or even MicroAce as long as it's a model of a prototype I like/ fits my collection without a second thought.

Like everything in life it comes down to taste, and taste alone. Neither manufacturer is truly superior to the other, nor is there an inferior choice. We all chose our models with our own set of values, and we all try to enjoy the hobby as befitting of our own personality.

 

I apologize if my reply came across as overly harsh or judgmental, but I just had to get this of my chest.

[JR 500系]

Thank you Sander san for the comprehensive read! You beat me to the 373 series description and the comparison of the E231-500 of Kato & Tomix, as recently I need to get a full consist E231-500 Yamanote line and was looking closely at bboth makers... ~  :)

 

You are definitely right regarding the HG sets being in older models now that I come to see of it! The only closer to contemporary models that is HG is the 485-3000 Hakucho model and the EF64 Twlight special set... While it's a nice touch that the 485-3000, one of my favourite 485s due to its colour and head mark, to be in HG, the twilight has better be TN couplered for that kind of price!  

 

 

How is the end car of the Ban-etsu Monogatari done?  It seems to have a normal bogie and a body mounted coupler?

 

Hi katoftw:

 

It's a normal Rapido coupler for the front end car, the one that is connected to the tender:

 

 

At the other end is the TN coupler:

 

 

The front Rapido is connected to the bogie, and the rear TN is connected to the body.

 

The rest of the cars are normal Rapido ones, so I need to get Tomix 0374 (as recommended by Tomix) to change them all..

 

* By the way will be sharing some of the above pictures too for my Benetsu Monogatari Grade up project ~~ :)

Edited August 9, 2015 by JR 500系

[VJM]

 

Usually you take off the metal box, remove the spring and the coupler. This lets you install the rapido again. But i don't have a banetsu monogatari set, so it could have a different coupler. On some sets, the holder can get in the way of the TN, so you have to turn the bogie around. Cutting it off at the base looks way better.

 

Taking off the metal box and removing the spring and coupler I have no problem with.  The arm is still getting in the way of the body mounted coupler.  If I turn the bogie around, the equipment on the bogie is at the wrong end, eg the air tanks.

 

 

 

The same is true for a rapido equipped set if you intend to upgrade. Also i don't really understand why is it so bad if you can't downgrade it after adding the TN-s and choosing to completly remove the rapido holder arms. Modelling is about building things. If you want a set that is perfect out of the box, you can get the HG sets, they have the car numbers, destination boards and everything else added in the factory and come pre equipped with TN-s. The idea is that if you don't have the car numbers already printed onto the cars, then it's sure that some construction work will be required to completly detail and upgrade the sets. Tomix seems to be more oriented towards the layout and train set builders and people who like to run their trains. This is why the whole Tomytec brand exists.

 

The Tomytec sets aren't really relevant in this case.  The models that I want and have purchased are the Tomix brand.  I want the ability to downgrade because I want to keep my stuff "mint-in-box" condition.  If I ever decide to sell, this is infinitely preferable to something that has been irreversibly changed.

 

The HG sets are far from perfect too.  I have the 581 series... so many things that I need to put on, and so much more expensive than the equivalent Kato.

[kvp]

 

I apologize if my reply came across as overly harsh or judgmental, 

Good points and i can't argue with the actual prices, which overall seems to be a bit unbalanced. I don't know why.

 

 

If I turn the bogie around, the equipment on the bogie is at the wrong end, eg the air tanks.

Yes, i had to cut off the mounting tabls and rotate the bogies back for the same reason on one of my sets with factory installed TN-s. This only shows Tomix doesn't have a better solution at the moment.

 

 

The front Rapido is connected to the bogie, and the rear TN is connected to the body.

This might have something to do with the locomotive having a rapido on the back. I would have prefered it both to have rapido-s (loco and cars front and back), so it's possible to shunt them or do a turntable run around. (when the loco is turned but the train isn't) Adding microtrains couplers and a remote uncoupler magnet is a possibility though, but not as easy as it sounds. The other option would be to get a spare open end skirt and a rapido bogie and mount it on the end car, making both ends rapido equipped for easy shunting.