Going Japanese!!!

[Pauljag900]

Looking to do it in the summer when the weather warms up

[katoftw]

Looks great.  One suggestion in the yards would be to remove the S62/S64 from between the points/turnouts.  Will allow more length to your holdling yards and allow a extra lane or two.

[Pauljag900]

Hi katoftw,thanks for the comments and advice,I thought about having the lines closer together and may well do as you sugested.But at the moment my thoughts are that on my layout I have two passing loops with platforms and two spare sets of platforms(I bought too many) if I go ahead as planned I will have to remove the existing passing loops and platforms so my thoughts were to have somewhere to park the trains and put platforms in between.I may even do two with platforms and two without.I ll see how it takes shape once I get started.I need to work out how to be able to make it removeable from the rest of the layout so I can clean the track at the back.

[cteno4]

Paul,

 

looks nice. lots of running length in the small space and it looks like good longer runs for the over and under so lower grades. i assume the yard is all at the high level? only steep portion looks to be the inner double track as it goes from the bottom of the plan up to the yard, that looks like a short run. or is the yard at a mid height and then the inner double track serving the yard climbs some more at the top up to where the first double crossover is?

 

yeah you might get one or two more tracks in w/o the spacers there. maybe get one in and keep a couple of the tracks with platforms and the rest w/o. maybe do platforms in the tracks closer to the viewers in front there and storage behind.

 

Might look at spacing your double crossover there so if you go thru more than one at once its not to many S curves in a row.

 

after this i can see the shed expanding?! it creeps!

 

jeff

[Pauljag900]

As I previously mentioned I was going to extend my layout down one side in the summer,however,I have a problem that looks like I m going to have to bring it forward!It seems I ve under estimated the weight of things on the layout as it is now and the baseboard is starting to bend,obviously I hav nt used strong enough materials for it.I could just put some extra supports in but I m thinking I may aswell just strip it off and start again,not too much of a problem as nothing is fixed down,just a bit of wiring to disconnect .The other problem is at the moment it s 130cm deep which means I have to pull it forward to clean,this will be a major operation once it's extended down the side and I would have to dismantle the side completely to slide the main board forward.So with all this in mind I ve decided to reduce the depth to 900cm(3feet)this means I will be able to reach the back from the front of the board.My plan is to make the frame work from 3x2 with half inch plywood screwed straight to it.Ii can t move it so no point in sitting a battoned board on a frame.

I m going to start it after the Christmas holiday and will need a load of track.I ll use what I ve got and take it from there.

 

This is the proposed layout,the back section is pretty much the same as it is now but about 15 inches less in depth.

Edited December 5, 2015 by Pauljag900

[Bruno]

Very very impressive

Nice job here

[cteno4]

Paul,

 

DOH! I was going to ask about your current slide mech to clean and work on the backside with the addition and forgot! Yes best not paint yourself into a corner. Working past 3.5-3' gets super hard in the long run and I think your slide solution was perfect to get around this.

 

New plan has some very long runs, but looks to have some very steep grades in there on the right portion, sure some are not getting too high? Grades on curves are also harder on the trains than straight grades, and it looks like you have most of the grades on curved areas.

 

Jeff

[Pauljag900]

Hi Jeff,the slide mechanism worked great for the layout as it is now but once extended down the side it would have been a pain to be honest.The way I'd planned it was to fix the sidings down and where the two boards meet I was going to use the extendable piece of track to join the two pieces of track together(20-050)so basically line it up and slide the tracks together,fine for planned cleaning but a pain for a stall or derail!The fact the board is now bending means it gave me the chance to have e re think.I guess wanting to extend is just a natural progression of the intrest I have in the model train world! Ha ha.Having bought the viaduct station and road plates I really wanted it to be the Center piece as it s a really nice bit of kit.So I put it almost bang in the Center and worked from there.I guessed there would be things I d not thought about and knew I d need to modify the plan slightly somewhere,that's why I love this forum and why I posted my plan on hereWith regards to the grades,yes you re absolutely right,they're a bit steep and I have modified them slightly and will post a new plan up in the next day or so once I ve printed it off and fixed the pages together.it was a case of getting them up and down in as little space as possible to pass under or over other tracks.I ve managed to rectify the grades by extending the viaduct straights in place of normal track.the pink outline is a double track but it's single with two radii!282 and 315.the orange is the standard double viaduct track(381/414)Not sure if you recall but I did a bit of research into making the double viaduct double height(4 inches)by using the poured concrete piers and turning one upside down and gluing them together,it worked quite well to be fair and the reason for trying it I was going to remove the track from the viaduct sections make roads to fix to them and use them as a freeway over the layout,so on the right hand side where it passes over the other viaduct (orange over pink) it will be double height.For the actual grades I ll use the standard concrete supports with the incline set glued on top of them.Hope all that makes some sense.

I m expecting a delivery any day now from Nariichi and in it is my last train of the six I need to complete my initial collection of six for the layout as it is now plus extra cars to make the others up to six car units so I m not going to dismantle it just yet.I have two weeks off over Xmas so will start it then.I should be able to dismantle it and build the new board in a day as nothing is permenantly fixed down it should be easy to do.Then I ll be able to see what track I ve got and what I need to order.

Yesterday I was fortunate to join the chat room and VJM was on line,his layout is awesome,and he gave me some good bits of advice.The main one being to swop the single crossovers for the double ones,which I ve also done now.I know the sidings will be behind the station but I ve made a mock up of the 3 feet board and station using boxes and I can just reach the back of the board,however,from a scenic point of view I may still change my mind and put the station at the rear and sidings at the front but I ll make that decision when I get there.

Hope you can make sense of all this Jeff

[Pauljag900]

Hi,having spoken to a few people on here yesterday I have now made a revised track plan,any comments or advice will be gratefully recieved .

[katoftw]

A. Where will the peirs go?  Remember you need them at least 45 degrees apart minimum.

 

B. Still not enough incline on the pink loop to allow track underneth.  you need 6x S248 and/or 45 degree curves to achieve a 50mm height.  More if using R282 curves.

[Pauljag900]

Hi mate,thank you for the comments,I ve based it on the way I have it now,I assume you mean the area where there s three loops?i think there s about 5 and a half track lengths if this is nt enough I can extend it on the right hand side by putting two 45 degree bends as viaduct instead of ground level track.To be honest I m kinda guessing it will need fine tuning once I get to start assembling it and admittedly the inclines are probably the maximum I can get away with.What I did last time on my current layout is I adjusted the inclines to suit the train and the track,after all it is possible to move the pier positions slightly away from the join as they give you intermediate joiners with the sets.I need to buy a stack of extra track but it ll be a bit at a time and I ll be starting with this area first as the rest is pretty straight forward,this means I ll be able to adjust inclines etc to suit the track.At least that's my intention!ha ha

[Pauljag900]

On the back of advice from katoftw,who quite rightly pointed out,as Jeff did, about the grades,I ve shortened the inner loop and lengthened the middle loop this will eliminate one of the crossovers and should make the grades not as steep,I ve also swapped some ground level for viaduct track as now I can make the grades longer and not so steep.

Edited December 6, 2015 by Pauljag900

[cteno4]

Paul,

 

So you are rising the outer double viaduct up to 4" there on the top where it goes over the double single viaduct at about the same point the double single viaduct goes over the ground track of the inner double track spiral? The grades look to be about 4.25+ degree inclines here and this is steep for many trains. But keeping them to 6 cars helps.

 

I keep harping on the inclines as one of our club members did three different unitrak layouts over a few years and was always aggressive with his grades and always had some running problems (grade transitions, slowing on grade curves a lot and a few stripped universal joints) and he had to run the trains fast if he just let the trains run to take the grades well and this at times lead to derailments going too fast down grade at times. He also had an indordinat number or very loud growly rough running trains. I cleaned several and it could have been just lots of schmutz on the layout from scenery and dust, but they were also bone dry on lubricants as well which I think came from running at higher speeds all the time and it throwing all the grease out (and perhaps picking up schmutz faster). It was pretty frustrating for him, but hard to get him out of the complex heavy incline designs he was doing. So it can be a tradeoff, can't usually have everything!

 

You can cheat on the peirs some by gluing them together then putting the peirs where you can. Also making some custom cement slab wall peirs or out of some wood moulding or dowels for round column peirs can work well to fill in at the tight spaces. For the above member I made him a pile of custom peirs that were about 2.5x1cm stock that I had rounded all the corners on the router to look like the base of the concrete T kato peirs. Then a small flat crosspiece about 5mm thick was glued on top to make a T. Then on top of the T two little blocks were glued that would fit into the channels in the bottom of the double viaduct pieces (these held them in place and once he was happy with placement he would use a dab of rubber cement to hold the base and top in place). I cut heights in 1/4" increments and made like 6 at each height. Worked great and he was able to do some wild track plans this way.

 

I did experiment recreating the kato T peirs out of wood, just cut the shape out of a piece of 3/4" stock, cleaned it up on the drum sander and rand the router around it to get all the corners rounded. Worked well but was quite a bit more work that the above peirs to make...

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

[Pauljag900]

Hi Jeff,that's the plan,but I ve modified the plan slightly since we last spoke,I ve reduced the size of the inner loop and extended the middle loop so now there s only one crossover.Where the top double track crosses the single viaduct track the single viaduct is actually on its way down so I may not need to raise the top track to 4 inches but enough to clear the trains,so 2 inches clearence.I ve got a bit of time yet as I plan to do it on the Xmas break between Xmas and new year.I reckon I can strip it off and rebuild the new baseboard and paint it in a day.Then I can lay what track I have and see what I need to order.Hope Nariichi does nt sell it all over Xmas.And as I m sure you know things do nt always go to plan,something I ve come to realise since I ve been doing it.I can spend as much time as I like on the computer planning things but sometimes you just have to start laying the track and see where things end up,

Paul

[Pauljag900]

Also meant to say that a couple of years ago I was messing about,researching stuff really,and at that point I was nt really aware of the extent to which you can buy the Kato stuff,and I made some round piers from 1inch round timber and I covered them with engineers blue brick building paper,they looked quite good to be fair,in fact I may still have them somewhere.

[Pauljag900]

Hi,when I made my first plan I had a wish list of six trains,I now have them but there s at least another six that I want,so with all the problems with the base board I decided to do it now.Before I made a new plan I made a wish list,viaduct station,sidings for parked trains and crossovers with a few up and downs.Impossible!

[kvp]

Some shinkansen yards are in fact elevated and there are examples for commuter lines too. Of course, you can just add a small hill under the yard to make it 'ground level'.

 

What looks strange is the lack of platforms for one up and one down track in each loop. This means that there are no platforms to stop for trains travelling on those two tracks. One simple solution would be to remove the short straight from the left pinkish curve and its pair from just above the bottom pinkish curve. This would shift the two double track lines apart (you'll have to remove the middle double crossover) so you can fit another island platform there. Instead of the single piece crossover, you could use 2 turnouts and 2x64mm straights to connect the two lines with 2 single crossovers at each end of the middle platform. This would give you 3 platforms in a 1-P-2-P-2-P-1 layout.

 

If you want to lower the yard, then you could branch out on the ground section (with a crossover before the branch), then keep the service track on the ground next to the pinkish line and route it into the current yard throat at ground level. This would leave your with a 6 track elevated station, with a 4-5 track ground yard before it. The access line will need a slightly smaller radius curve than the pinkish line, but it will be single track. This layout is a very common sight on Japanese aerial views.

[Pauljag900]

Hi mate,thanks for the comments.I had thought about removing one of the sidings and making a conventional passing loop like the other side,if my calculations are correct I may do that anyway.I m also thinking that instead of using the station extension plates I may make my own from wood that way I m not restricted to the width of the station.I ll use them for front and back with the wood in the middle,if that makes sense.

[Pauljag900]

Hi kvp,I ve done what you sugested and spaced it to take a third platform,not sure if it's quite as you explained but I ve done it.I ll post a revised plan in the next couple of days,thank you

[kvp]

You're welcome! We are looking forward to the updated plans!

[cteno4]

Paul,

 

This looks nice, simpler and nicer grades to deal with. Also looks like more room for scenery.

 

You might think of moving the crossovers out to other places around the layout that are in easy to reach as they can be the most prone place to get derailments or trains stuck. Like kvp mentioned it would be cool to get all your tracks with platforms.

 

The iterations are good! Things keep getting better!

 

Jeff

[Pauljag900]

Thanks Jeff,that's largely due to the guys on here,that's why I post my plans up,to try and iron out the problems I do nt see!Best to alter it on paper rather than when it s a layout.I took all kvp comments on board and I ve altered the plan as he suggested,.I removed the double crossovers and swapped them for single ones as they re shorter,and I moved them to the ends of the station.Also I ve done as he suggested regarding pushing the two Center tracks apart slightly and instead of a crossover I ve joined them with two singles and a 64 mm straight.I ve also put a 64mm straight in the first siding,so now I can fit 4 platforms in with 4 sidings behind.With regards to being able to reach the back I made a mock up of the station using boxes on my table which is 3 feet wide and I could reach ok.Just waiting to see if anyone points out any other issues and tomorrow I ll post an updated plan showing the changes.

[Pauljag900]

So,having listened to the comments I ve made a few changes to the crossovers and platforms.

Paul

Edited December 12, 2015 by Pauljag900

[kvp]

Looks great! I think you could have left the top and bottom crossovers in place as only the middle one was in the way of the middle platform, but this looks usable too. (if you already have the crossovers, you can use them) The 4th (bottom) platform is a nice addition. Now you have what looks like a good station.

[cteno4]

Paul,

 

looks great. maybe the station entrance and larger road plate areas can go on the left and maybe taller buildings along the right side of the station and roadway under the viaduct there. will help not make the station dominate the whole layout by obscuring the view of it a little.

 

are you going to do your station using the kato plates? this is quite a good size now. you could just use a chunk of plywood and a simple under structure of wood to help frame it and keep flat and square and support it. you can cut a slot in the edges to slide the kato walls into if you want. unfortunately the kato plates get very expensive at like $10 each!

 

the crossover pieces will fit into the double viaduct once you remove the slab track (by removingcouple of screws on the underside). of course a double crossover will go 62mm into the next section (its 310 long) so you will need to cut one of the plate sections down with a razor saw to 186. the single crossover will fit perfectly as its only 248.

 

cheers

 

jeff