Kato TGV Sud Est Orange DCC Install

[surfingstephens]

First the good news, I finally got my hands on (almost, it is being shipped as we speak) an old orange TGV Sud Est for a reasonable price.  Now the challenge, convert it to DCC.   I plan on using a Lenz silver decoder and this will be my first install of non-dcc friendly train, so I will probably needs some help.  Luckily, I have very good soldering skills.     So, I have seen pictures of wiring diagrams for this train in the past, but cannot seem to find them now?   Does anyone know where a write up or pictures are for this train showing a dcc install?   Anyone every try putting a sound decoder in one of these?

 

Thanks..

Edited October 13, 2013 by surfingstephens

[surfingstephens]

Hey, I found the darn thing...

http://www.1zu160.net/digital/einbaubsp/kato-tgv-sud.php

 

If anyone else has any more examples, instructions, pictures or things to look out for, please let me know.  The more I know going into it the more likely it will go well.

 

What type of dcc controller should be used for the unpowered car?  

 

One of my other question is regarding the lighting.   Do I stick with the lighting that came with the train or is there something better and where do I get it? 

Edited October 13, 2013 by surfingstephens

[KenS]

This seems very straightforward, and from the (google-translated) German text it sounds like there's plenty of room to work inside the body. The only part that seemed vague was exactly where on the lightboard the blue wire connected. Warning: I've never worked on one of these, so there could be "gotchas" the author of the German instructions didn't mention that I wouldn't know about.

 

Ignore the dotted lines on the diagram, as those are for decoders without a blue (lighting positive common) wire, and a Lenz Silver will have a blue wire.

 

Other than that, you're just:

1. bending the copper strips to separate the four trucks from the two motor tabs,

2. modifying the lightboard to remove a capacitor and two diodes,

3. soldering a wire from the front strip to the rear strip on each side so both trucks contribute power to the decoder, being careful to keep "the solder on the front side flat" where it has to tuck under the lightboard (I'm not sure what "front" means here),

4. soldering the decoder's power leads (red/black) to the pickups on each side,

5. soldering its motor outputs (gray/orange) to the motor tabs,

6. soldering its lighting leads (blue/white/yellow) to the lightboard: white and yellow go to the bulbs, on the side away from the common lead that the blue is connected to (I'm not sure exactly where blue goes; maybe it's obvious what's connected to the bulbs after removing the diodes and capacitors,

7. insulating the bottom of the lightboard from the copper leads, and insulating the decoder from anything it might touch.

8. tuck all the wires out of the way, and tape them together if needed.

 

The lightboard stuff is pretty vague.  If it's not obvious what to do, post a photo showing the traces on it, and we can probably point out what needs work.

 

You said you're familiar with soldering, so that should all go easy.  I do recommend placing heat-sink clips on the brass tabs (between plastic and wires) while working, so heat doesn't channel down and soften the plastic where that touches the brass.  Pre-tinning the wires should make the soldering go quickly, to avoid getting too much heat on the brass.

 

A sound decoder won't change anything except that you need space for the speaker, preferably some place where it can push air out of the car from the front of the cone and the back side can be sealed (although you can buy/make a styrene box to seal the back if needed).  There's lots of online instructions for that kind of work.

 

On the unpowered car, are you asking about a decoder just to control head/tail lights?  I expect it's very much the same, except that you just need a very simple decoder, programmed to the same address, but with the yellow/white wiring flipped so it's headlight is off when the decoder receives "forward" and on for "reverse".  You can flip that in a CV bit if you get it wired wrong (add 1 to CV29). The orange/gray wires, if present, would be clipped short and not connected. But a light-only decoder would omit them anyway. A sound decoder in the light-only car could also do lights, but would probably need the CV direction bit flipped, because otherwise it might emit the wrong sounds if any are directional (I'd expect there aren't any, but it's not an area I've paid much attention to).

 

If you just want a light-only decoder in the other car, the Lenz LX101XF used to be a good choice for this, but it's apparently been discontinued. Since you're using bulb lighting, you need one with at least 100mA per function output (bulbs can use up to 75 mA), which excludes some of the really small ones, but it doesn't sound like space is an issue.  The TCS FL4 is a common choice.

 

I don't know if there are alternate lightboards or instructions for replacing bulbs with LEDs.  European models aren't my area of interest. Perhaps someone else would know.

[surfingstephens]

Thanks, when I get the train in I will take pictures as I go and ask questions here.   I am going to go ahead and order the decoder(s) so they are here when the train arrives.

[surfingstephens]

The train has arrived from Japan.  Very pleased as it is in like new condition.   Here are some quick pics of it and when I get some free time maybe this weekend I will start the dcc installation.  I feel pretty comfortable with what I have to do for the motor, just may need some advice doing the lights.   I will stop at that point and provide pictures and questions.

 

 

 

 

 

[surfingstephens]

Lot's of pics to post to help those who come after me on this project, but I only have a few minutes and I want to get my question in before I leave.    So I read on the post that I need to cut the diode off.  Then I spoke with someone and they told me I think that the resistors need to stay in place, but when I look at the pictures of the earlier link where the guy did my train it looks like he removed the resistors?  Where do the wires attach to?   Top light is for forward, bottom light is for reverse.  Little help is appreciated.   Thanks!!!  More pics coming later.

 

 

You might also notice that the copper goes straight across for both wheels as one piece.  In the German example there are two separate pieces of copper and he soldered two small pieces of jumper wire(white wire) to get power from the front and rear trucks.  Maybe he cut the copper and then bent them up so they would never short out?   I was thinking just some kapton tape to separate the motor copper from the truck copper.

Edited October 27, 2013 by surfingstephens

[surfingstephens]

I am back, thought I would post some additional pictures.    I had a tough time taking off the shell and spent awhile wedging business cards in there and Starbucks plastic coffee sticks before I could get it free of the frame.     I think once I get some feed back on the lighting I should be able to get this done.

Edited October 27, 2013 by surfingstephens

[surfingstephens]

I have been doing some reading and also am wondering whether I should use the bulbs that came with the train or is it better to switch to using LED's?  Here is the link discussing this topic.

http://www.mrdccu.com/curriculum/lighting/LED.htm

[surfingstephens]

Apparently I have no grasp of what a diode does, because the harder I look at the positive and negative flows for each of the bulbs the more it looks like they share a common negative wire (which I understand), but they also seem to share the same positive as well(which makes no sense),but with two different resistors.   Unfortunately I have very limited understanding of electrical components like this.   

 

It did just occur to me that these resistors might flow only one direction and the diode changes the directions of the electrical poles and somehow that makes one bulb "flow" and the other does not and that is how it works?  hmm.   If that is the case then it does make some sense, what I need to do is cut out the resisters, use the common ground with the ground wire run to it, and then solder the power to each of the bulbs for each of the power wires.      Am I on the right track?

 

 

Busy day with the kids so I get small gaps to read more.  So, it appears the things I have been calling resistors are really diodes (the two cylindrical items on the board)  those are doing exactly what I was describing above which is controlling the direction of flow to make each light work.   So, if those two cylindrical guys are the diodes round one must be a capacitor which I don't think I need anymore either.

Edited October 27, 2013 by surfingstephens

[surfingstephens]

Here is where I am now.  I have it all set up and wired.   I have it on the programming track.  I am using Decoder Pro software and I can read all the cv's fine and as it is reading the cv's the loco is moving along a little down the track as you would expect(good sign).   The bad news is then when I try out the throttle there is no movement.   Nothing.   hmmm.      I feel like it all must be wired correctly and the motor is working because it inches down the track when I read the cv's.      Tried a few settings on the lenz folder tab, but still no action.   There is a tab where I can select different motor types with "0" as the default.   Any ideas??  

Edited October 27, 2013 by surfingstephens

[surfingstephens]

Good news.  I did a reset on the decoder and that got it working.   The train now operates!  I still have some issues to sort out.  The first one is forward is reverse on the throttle.   I figured out  how to change that using decoder pro with little trouble and now that is fixed, but now the lights are backwards.  Meaning, the train goes forwards with reverse lights and backwards with the with forward lights.    I will figure it out.  I would rather get it fixed programming the controller than reversing the motor wires.    I also had some addressing issues that I need to sort out.   The good news is the train runs forward and backwards and all the wiring is good!

Edited October 28, 2013 by surfingstephens

[Martijn Meerts]

There should be an option to select which function output gets used when the train is travelling in a certain direction. I'm not sure which CVs those are form the top of my head though, there's a few too many of them ;)

 

As for the motor type in the Lenz decoder, there's no specific setting for specific motors, it's really just a bit of trail and error. Even if you install a decoder in 2 exactly the same trains, the motor type settings might end up being different. Best way to get around setting them up that I found, was to run the train and just use programming on main to change the values while the train keeps running. Easiest to see the effect of the changes that way.

[Bernard]

Great news that you got it working! I always have problems with the forward and reverse lights on engines like yours......one other thing about the TGV, those pantographs are extremely fragile, be careful!

Thanks for posting photos of your install it will help other members.

[surfingstephens]

Installed the rear decoder and that went smoothly.   Pretty much the same set up as the front without a capacitor.   I did end up switching the motor wires on the forward cab to resolve my issue with matching the lights up with the direction of the train.  I spoke to a lenz person and it really seemed to be the correct solution.  The cv that allows you to reverse the direction of the engine was really designed to be used when you run a consist with another engine going backwards, not to solve a wiring problem.   For the record, I used a Lenz Silver mini decoder for the front and a TCS FL4 (lights only) for the back.   I programmed each of them to the same address and they are working fine.  

 

There is plenty of room for the decoder in this train so no worries there.   Had this not been my first installation, I might have tried putting in a sound decoder.   As it is, being that this is my first install of a non-decoder friendly I am happy it all went well.   This wraps up this thread for me and I hope this helps someone else down the line.

 

 

Funny story about Lenz, I callled the 800 number and I could not believe it when an actual person answered the first time!   Unusual in this day.  I told him my problem and he said "switch the wires", but I then told him I would prefer to program it on the decoder.  He then said "call John" he will help you and proceeded to give me the number.  I called that number and John did answer, he asked who I was and why I was calling, I told him Lenz had given me his number.   It felt like I was calling some guy at his house, chuckle.   He then was very helpful and basically came up with the same answer, but did a very good job of explaining why that was the best solution.    The amazing thing is both times I actually got the person on the first call and no one went through any questioning about when the decoder was purchased etc..   They just helped me right away.   Awesome customer service. 

Edited October 29, 2013 by surfingstephens

[Martijn Meerts]

Lenz is usually pretty decent when it comes to customers ;)