Platforms for a (one-off) viaduct station

[macdon]

Hey guys,

 

I would like to get your opinion on the kind of kato platforms to use for a viaduct station that runs shinkansen trains.

 

I am currently doing a mock-up for a 35.5" long viaduct station facade using  kato V15 tracks for a station and  V13 for the line.

Looking at the V15 literature, it suggests a 23-120 station which is an island flag stop platform that sells for $30. Unfortunately, it seems always out of stock in HS.

Always on stock is the standard platforms which costs less like the 20-815 set that could be had for $16 and you could buy various roofed and plain (without roof) platforms as well - they all integrate just fine.

 

1. How big a departure is the flag stop platform compared to the standard (cheaper) platforms?

2. would the extra details (extra cost too) of the flag stop matter much if the platform is inside a viaduct structure just like Kato's 23-230 viaduct station?

 

I am also thinking if its possible to join 3-4 standard roofed platforms together instead, removing the white connectors from both ends and just cover the ends with styrene or similar material?

 

While the V15 widening tracks could be part of the viaduct extension, I just would like to envision if my 35.5" mock-up of the main structure needs to be elongated more. Im hoping not to add more, but dont want also to have a half length shinkansen train of 8-10 cars be dangling its tail either. :)

 

Mardon 

 

[JR 500系]

Hi Mardon:

 

While i do not have the Kato viaduct station, HS provides some information here: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003169

 

I'm guessing the following in regards to your question:

 

The cheaper and easier to find set is, well, less detailed, but does the work fine. I have two of them, but not the one-sided type but the island type. For shinkansen station, i think it's better and more accurate to use one-sided platform types, so that you can have a 'pass-by' line without the shinkansen slowing down, much like in real life. I have two platforms and no 'pass-by' lines and i'm seeing that it's not as accurate as the real life, but i'm using Tomix so that's another story...

 

Also, the more expensive and more detailed is, well, more detailed.. It has that prominent yellow line that really strikes out, and also the detailing on the roof is alot better looking, at a cost though. I think both works absoluately fine, just in terms of appearence and detailing..

 

The white connectors can be removed easily... so you can also keep adding viaduct extensions to accomodate until 16 car shinkansens if you like.

 

Hope that helped! Sorry cant provide more detailed information as i'm using the Tomix type...

[macdon]

Thanks again JR!

 

I may have goofed in my original post above - a double tracked viaduct running 2 opposed trains wont need an island platform. The outer side of each track would have platforms that are built-in as part of the viaduct station itself. 

 

.........unless you are running 2 trains in a single line wherein you probably need a turnout to let a train stop at the station and let the other one continue straight on.

 

Mardon

[cteno4]

Mardon,

 

like jr said the older platforms are ok but just not as detailed. you can paint the newer yellow stripe along the platform edge pretty easily or even make a decal with a little of the 3D effect of the tiling and bumps on it (for vision impaired) if you want to get fancy.

 

the platforms are easy to detail up yourself.

 

since you are making your own walls you might want to just make your own platforms. they are pretty simple. they just tend to have a slab on top (maybe 4-6" thick that sticks out a few inches and foundation wall under that. very simple! roofs can vary quite a bit, but generally just slope back from just over the edge of the platform back to the wall. superstructure is usually pretty simple exposed I bean or square or tubing. its usually pretty minimal. 

 

cheers

 

jeff

[tossedman]

We have the 20-120 station. It has a higher roof as you can see in the pictures below. It also has a tile floor with the yellow lines as opposed to concrete (grey plastic). Check out the pictures. Hope this helps somewhat.

 

 

 

 

Cheers eh,

 

Todd

Edited May 22, 2013 by tossedman

[macdon]

Mardon,

 

like jr said the older platforms are ok but just not as detailed. you can paint the newer yellow stripe along the platform edge pretty easily or even make a decal with a little of the 3D effect of the tiling and bumps on it (for vision impaired) if you want to get fancy.

 

the platforms are easy to detail up yourself.

 

since you are making your own walls you might want to just make your own platforms. they are pretty simple. they just tend to have a slab on top (maybe 4-6" thick that sticks out a few inches and foundation wall under that. very simple! roofs can vary quite a bit, but generally just slope back from just over the edge of the platform back to the wall. superstructure is usually pretty simple exposed I bean or square or tubing. its usually pretty minimal. 

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

Thanks Jeff - and I may end up just doing that buddy. In a double track with opposing train runs I believe the platforms are at the outer ends just like a subway.

 

Mardon

[macdon]

We have the 20-120 station. It has a higher roof as you can see in the pictures below. It also has a tile floor with the yellow lines as opposed to concrete (grey plastic). Check out the pictures. Hope this helps somewhat.

 

 

 

 

Cheers eh,

 

Todd

 

 

Thanks for the pics Todd! That certainly shows how big a departure a 23-120 flag stop platform is vs the standard ones.  Hmmm...... too bad they always seem not in stock in HS.  I can see where you guys can appreciate the extra details, but would those details be still appreciated if the platform is inside a viaduct station? 

 

A 23-120 island flag stop platform is 638mm long, while the regular island platforms are longer at 896mm long. If each roofed platform is 248mm long, about how many 248mm platforms do you think should be enough for a 8-10 car shinkansen? For example a 500 Nozomi?

 

Do you buy a single platform set and be done with it or do you provide platforms that could handle the whole length of your longest train?

 

Mardon

[lurkingknight]

this is the same issue I will face in the not too distant future... 11 car yamanote is long... I'll basically have to extend the platforms on any station I plan to make it look right. Nothing is more embarassing than pulling up to a platform that's to short... just ask GO transit commuters in southern ontario when the doors open up and there's no platform to step onto in some stops.

[bill937ca]

this is the same issue I will face in the not too distant future... 11 car yamanote is long... I'll basically have to extend the platforms on any station I plan to make it look right. Nothing is more embarassing than pulling up to a platform that's to short... just ask GO transit commuters in southern ontario when the doors open up and there's no platform to step onto in some stops.

 

 

There are some lines in the Tokyo area with stations shorter than the length of the train though.   :)

[tossedman]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="macdon" data-cid="82069">Thanks for the pics Todd! That certainly shows how big a departure a 23-120 flag stop platform is vs the standard ones.  Hmmm...... too bad they always seem not in stock in HS.  I can see where you guys can appreciate the extra details, but would those details be still appreciated if the platform is inside a viaduct station? <br />

 <br />

A 23-120 island flag stop platform is 638mm long, while the regular island platforms are longer at 896mm long. If each roofed platform is 248mm long, about how many 248mm platforms do you think should be enough for a 8-10 car shinkansen? For example a 500 Nozomi?<br />

 <br />

Do you buy a single platform set and be done with it or do you provide platforms that could handle the whole length of your longest train?<br />

 <br />

Mardon</blockquote>

<p>Hi Mardon,</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I don't have the Viaduct station (yet!) so we can see the extra details. I have the Overhead Transit Station (as you see in the picture) and the 20-120 platform fits perfectly with it.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I don't know about the length of the platform with a 8 - 10 car Shinkansen. We have four Shinkansen trains but they're all B Train Shorties. An 8 car B Train Shorty is 2.25 pieces long and a 16 B Train Shorty is 4.5 pieces long. We don't have an island platform that long but we do have a side platform that long.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>My son is 7 and loves the B Train Shorty. I like it because it saves $$$ on platforms, track and space in the basement. (Although I must admit that I'm planning a longer layout, with a Viaduct station).</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Todd</p>

Edited May 23, 2013 by tossedman

[lurkingknight]

There are some lines in the Tokyo area with stations shorter than the length of the train though.   :)

 

I didn't see any, but then again I didn't get to ride everything :P... I did notice though that sometimes yamanote wrapped a platform at some stops where it was just the length of the train with no room to spare, the train wouldn't sit completely straight. There were also a number of decommissioned platforms we passed that were definitely old/closed stations that were not long enough to handle the train, but all in all i didn't notice any in use along JR yamanote or JR chuo

[macdon]

<blockquote class="ipsBlockquote" data-author="macdon" data-cid="82069">Thanks for the pics Todd! That certainly shows how big a departure a 23-120 flag stop platform is vs the standard ones.  Hmmm...... too bad they always seem not in stock in HS.  I can see where you guys can appreciate the extra details, but would those details be still appreciated if the platform is inside a viaduct station? <br />

 <br />

A 23-120 island flag stop platform is 638mm long, while the regular island platforms are longer at 896mm long. If each roofed platform is 248mm long, about how many 248mm platforms do you think should be enough for a 8-10 car shinkansen? For example a 500 Nozomi?<br />

 <br />

Do you buy a single platform set and be done with it or do you provide platforms that could handle the whole length of your longest train?<br />

 <br />

Mardon</blockquote>

<p>Hi Mardon,</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I don't have the Viaduct station (yet!) so we can see the extra details. I have the Overhead Transit Station (as you see in the picture) and the 20-120 platform fits perfectly with it.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>I don't know about the length of the platform with a 8 - 10 car Shinkansen. We have four Shinkansen trains but they're all B Train Shorties. An 8 car B Train Shorty is 2.25 pieces long and a 16 B Train Shorty is 4.5 pieces long. We don't have an island platform that long but we do have a side platform that long.</p>

<p> </p>

<p>My son is 7 and loves the B Train Shorty. I like it because it saves $$$ on platforms, track and space in the basement. (Although I must admit that I'm planning a longer layout, with a Viaduct station).</p>

<p> </p>

<p>Todd</p>

 

 

Im with you Todd. If its gonna be a ground level station and I have the space, I think a 20-120 platform with the overhead like what you have above is great to have.

Though it may be short if used inside a viaduct station serving long trains - unless of course you buy multiples of 20-120 but then costs will go up as well.

 

Yeah, I've tried to entice my 9yo with the B shortys (God knows I need to save some money), but he prefers the usual ones. He already got my small round layout/test track and im sure he will be eyeing my upcoming viaduct/shinkansen project pretty soon as well. 

 

Mardon

[bill937ca]

I didn't see any, but then again I didn't get to ride everything :P... I did notice though that sometimes yamanote wrapped a platform at some stops where it was just the length of the train with no room to spare, the train wouldn't sit completely straight. There were also a number of decommissioned platforms we passed that were definitely old/closed stations that were not long enough to handle the train, but all in all i didn't notice any in use along JR yamanote or JR chuo

 

 

This is Kuhonbutsu on the Tokyu Oimachi line.  Only about 20 minutes from the Yamanote but seemingly in another world.

 

http://ku-gyou.net/shitetsu/tq-kuhonbutsu.html

 

http://ktymtskz.my.coocan.jp/tankentai/kuhonbutu.htm

 

Oimachi line trains are 5 cars long.  There is a grade crossing at either end which limits the station platform to three cars. The guard has his own little platform with the usual remote control TV screen. And the station itself is in the middle of a grade crossing.  Another 3 car station station on the same line was lengthened this last February.

[tossedman]

Hi Mardon,

 

It's not the cost as much as the length of the viaduct station that's the biggest deal breaker for me. I'd love to have a station like Ken's but just don't have the space. He's used the viaduct station as well as two overhead stations. You can see how he's used the 20-120 station as well as others in his photos. Looks great!

 

B Train Shorty is a compromise I'm willing to make and my son loves them so that makes it easy. (Mind you, he's 7, and I haven't bought a full size Shinkansen yet). I personally love the way a 16 car train snakes around the small radius corners we have.

 

Here's a video of a short 16 car train we put together after Christmas.

 

 

Cheers eh,

 

Todd

Edited May 24, 2013 by tossedman

[KenS]

Thanks for the kind words Todd.

 

The 23-120 set is really just two island platforms with the short (70mm) end sections.  What's good about this is that it fits nicely inside the V15 set, and you can't get those 70mm ends any other way.  If you're willing to devote more length to the track than platform, and have some empty space between the platform end and the V15 track, you could use individual 23-107/108 sets with the 23-109 long (200 mm) ends. 

 

You can substitute the older platforms for the 23-107/108, but as noted in an earlier post the rooflines differ, so mixing them won't look good. The older ones have an asphalt floor, rather than tile, so they might look better for an "older" or more rural station. I like the look of the newer ones for an urban Shinkansen station myself.

 

If you are inside a viaduct, include either the accessory set (23-118) which provides an elevator, or one of the 23-108 platforms, which provides a stairwell leading down.

 

The V15/Island approach is the best one to use for a compact viaduct station, as the whole will fit within a single width section (99mm wide). Using side platforms you'd need more than 100mm. You can do that by putting two viaduct sections together in parallel (I use more than that in mine), but that gets expensive.

 

While there are stations shorter than trains for commuter trains, that would look a bit odd for a Shinkansen. A station for an 8-car 500 Series Shinkansen would need a platform of length 1266 mm (5 normal platforms plus short ends for 1380mm or four normal platforms plus long ends for 1392mm). A 12-car version would be 1898mm (I measured mine a few years ago when I was designing my station).

 

 

[macdon]

Todd - great video production and great shinkansen as well! Im sure your son loves it!

 

Ken - thanks for sharing your input and you're right about the flag stop parts not looking good with the older asphalt platforms. However, due to the 23-120's availability and length needed - my only recourse may be 'custom'. 

 

You guys have the measurement for the square tiles? I may have to elect a printed decal instead to include the yellow line.

 

My planned custom viaduct station is just 35.5" long.....barely 1m long, so I may need to expand it more. Thats already more than a whole side of a V13 viaduct set (but of course gearing for track expansion later on).

 

A 2m long station?  Hmmm.......love it! For a floor layout, that just might be doable :)

 

Mardon

[KenS]

The surface of these platforms is really a work of art, with detail that can't be seen directly from a distance but still creates a very different appearance from a distance.  You might want to buy one, and photograph/scan it if you plan a scratch-built platform.

 

The tiles on the pale yellow center portion are square, and there are 10 across the platform in 26mm, so 2.6mm each including the gap between them. These have a very faint texture to them, to keep them from looking slick.

 

These tiles are separated from the yellow line tiles by a single row of small tiles 1.5mm square (also pale yellow). The yellow line is actually a separate plastic part (actually two on each side of 124 mm length) that can be unsnapped.  These fit in a slot 2mm wide, but the square tiles are about 1.8mm wide. These both have a more substantial pattern on them. The yellow tiles have the most obvious pattern: a 4x4 (I think, its at the limit of my vision) grid of dots to represent the raised bumps used to allow vision-impaired persons to detect that this strip is different from ordinary flooring.

 

Finally, the outer edge is a set of rectangles with a pattern of stripes parallel to the platform edge, each rectangle 4mm x 3mm (long axis towards the platform edge).

 

Total platform width is 41mm at the base (to fit between the tracks) and 42mm at the platform surface.  Height is 14.5mm.

 

Edit: fixed a minor omission.

Edited May 24, 2013 by KenS

[macdon]

Ken - im piqued, so I may just get one of those just to check it out if anything else.

 

Also, allow me to take this opportunity in thanking you for the wealth of info you provided in Sumida Crossing. A lot of folks (me included) will be lost without it. More power to you sir!  :)

 

Mardon

[cteno4]

mardon,

 

using printed decals is probably the best way to go. you can also add details like the line up markings that many stations have on the platforms to tell folks where to line up for various trains. 

 

again the fun of japanese modeling, there is a prototype for just about anything! (well not a grade crossing on a main shinkansen line, but you get my drift!)

 

jeff

[macdon]

mardon,

 

using printed decals is probably the best way to go. you can also add details like the line up markings that many stations have on the platforms to tell folks where to line up for various trains. 

 

again the fun of japanese modeling, there is a prototype for just about anything! (well not a grade crossing on a main shinkansen line, but you get my drift!)

 

jeff

 

 

Markings like on here?

 

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=828904&page=64

 

I dont think I could get those right as there's so many markings.  Which do you think are the basic ones?  Though they would really look cool if replicated properly! :)

 

Mardon 

[lurkingknight]

all it is is the same few kanji and the car number across the floors.. there's nothing really hard to get about it. They're laid out in a fashion that puts people a safe distance away from the side of the train (behind a barrier if present) before directing towards the door and ending far enough away from the door that it allows people getting off to have room.

 

At shinkansen stations they were sometimes color coded because shorter shinkansen (hikari, sakura, kodama) are not the same car length as a nozomi train, so their numbers differ. 

 

All you need are 1 or 2 snapshots of them from 1 station to get the theme and the kanji and you can easily create a template to reproduce. At that size, the font isn't going to make a difference if you want to be 100% matching how it's exactly on the marking, any block japanese font should be fine. The most identifiable platform markings would be the line up/car locations it's the thing that stood out to me the most on my trip a couple months ago. The braile sidewalk is also very prominent just about anywhere you go.

[cteno4]

Mardon,

 

yeah you would never be able to read the kanji at that size, just the few bits of markings and yellow and white rectangles would give a great feeling of a platform.

 

but really depends if you can see in your station at all! if you dont really see in there and dont care then just paint it all gray and put a line of yellow near the edge if you can see a little bit in the ends. search Nail tape on ebay and you will find thin (about 1mm) wide tapes in all sorts of colors for a dollar or two to put down fine lines. couple strips of this would be about right for the yellow line.

 

one fun idea with a station like this that im working on for the jrm station will be to have a small video camera inside the station so that you see the trains come thru the station. then detailing out the covered station area makes sense and is quite fun. trains going thru stations are some of the most fun places to get a trackside view like this. mini cameras are now dirt cheap.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[cteno4]

just occurred to me that someone in japan must have a garage business making station platform decals like this! Just never see those sorts of things outside small japanese hobby shops. usually the guys only sell to one or a handful of stores with odd little detail bits like this.

 

jeff

[macdon]

My viaduct tracks would be delayed a bit but im going ahead in making the custom station - so I was wondering if anyone has the info on the track 'base' height of the viaduct?

 

Basically the height where the tracks in the viaduct are resting on - so when I make the track base of the station then add the tracks - they would mate properly with the viaduct.

 

Thanks!

 

Mardon 

[KenS]

I just replied to a PM on this, but the answer's probably of wider interest: 60mm (2 3/8") from table top to the base of the unitrack snapped into the viaduct).