out of control

[lurkingknight]

Here's a real life case of what I'm trying to accomplish:

 

https://maps.google.ca/?ll=35.698247,139.773825&spn=0.002769,0.004128&t=h&z=19

 

the JR station at akihabara has the chuo line that crosses the yamanote line (just to name a couple). Yamanote is on the lower level (in my case it will be ground level) while the chuo line crosses is above it, perpendicular (in my case it will be a viaduct station)

 

I am aiming to take an existing track layout plan off the web and modifying it and moving some things around to achieve what I want. Whatever plan I use I will need to lengthen the straight runs at the stations to accommodate the length of train I have and will be putting on it in the future.

 

Thinking sort of along this vein

http://www.kato-unitrack.co.uk/images/Kato_Track/612-30-3-09.jpg

 

http://www.kato-unitrack.co.uk/images/Kato_Track/layout_403.jpg

 

Where the track crosses itself will be where I place the stations. What I'd like to know is if it's possible to combine the overhead station kit with the viaduct kit to achieve a seamless multiline station like akihabara. Since I don't have the station kits in front of me, I'd like to avoid having to order a whole slew of the stuff to do a trial by error test. I know ken mentioned something about the overhead station being able to be linked with several to form a large overhead station with some viaduct station integration, but it he didn't seem to go into further detail about it.

 

Strategic placement of the aboveground portion of the station will allow my future planned expansion of a subway line. I may do a suspended layout underneath the ground level with acrylic boxes/windows into the subway line where you can some of the setup, instead of just a couple windows... but being underground, there may not be a need to do much outside of the stations, which I may do 2, or just 1 station and an underground mall... depends on how ambitious I feel later. Seems to me like a lot of kitbashing and custom work will be needed. Probably a good reason to leave the underground portion until the end. 

[KenS]

The viaduct station kit (23-125) is really just a couple of buildings that go undet the viaduct (sold separately as 23-231) to make an entrance, plus a couple of viaduct station floor plates and sidewalls (sold separately as 23-232).  I think the kit has some larger sidewall windows you don't get in the expansion set, but it's been a long time since I unpacked mine and I don't recall exactly what was in each box. Viaduct segments (either single or double track, or both, can connect to the ends of the viaduct plates, but exactly where is limited by the S-joiner positions. And sidewalls clip onto the sides of the viaduct plates, to enclose the upper tracks. You need to buy supports for the part of the viaduct station not above the entrance/shops (i.e., any expansion sections).

 

The viaduct (upper part) is just a set of 248 x 99 mm plates that can be joined end-to-end and side-to-side with the white S-joiners to make any size upper platform you like by adding more expansions. Supporting it gets complex, since it's not very rigid and you need something under every joint.  This makes it hard to put a cross-ways station below, but it could be done at right angles if you were careful about placement.

 

Your second linked track plan has a viaduct station that's one segment wide, large enough for two tracks and an island between them. My station is basically three of those side-by-side.

 

Overhead clearance will be tight, about 51mm, under the viaduct, but that's sufficent if the unitrack is on the same surface as the supports for the viaduct.

 

When you say "combine the overhead station kit with the viaduct kit to achieve a seamless multiline station like akihabara", I'm not sure what you mean specifically.  I had something along those lines in mind with my Urban Station scene, but it's not really based on Akihabara. On mine, I simply put the Overhead Transit station inside the viaduct and the usual entrance buildings directly below it, to imply a connection.  If you're thinking about putting the actual Transit Station underneath, it won't fit, but you could put it to one side with the platforms extending under the viaduct without roofs (with a height of 57mm, the roofs won't fit under the viaduct unless you can raise it higher). There isnt any way to make a bridge from the viaduct over to the transit station though. So having it off to one side isn't really "seamless" in that sense.

 

The overhead transit station, without the side stairways, is almost exactly as wide as one viaduct plate (two tracks, an island platform, and a couple of outside legs make it about 5 mm wider).  If you don't plug the sidewalls all the way in, it should fit within a 1-wide viaduct section, and a pair of them with the expansion between them fits within three (for six tracks, the design I used).

 

I like the general concept of basing a two-level station on Akihabara though. And the idea of a subway station you can see into with some transparent sections is a cool one.

[bill937ca]

A crossing can be done but with the tracks on a diagonal as Tomix did for their Layout Room 2.

 

Edited June 6, 2013 by bill937ca

[Densha]

I've bound myself to the restriction of a maximum of 6 cars length, I simply don't want to make stations longer than that because it takes up too much space.

For Kato's double track I like this combination: http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/5828-kato-unitrack-v16v12/ I know you can add the V15 and overhead stations to it so you have a complete commuter line with bridge and station. (http://www.katomodels.com/start/guide//category/10/blogid/1) Just an idea...

[lurkingknight]

hmm, a certain amount of bashing is appealing to me, I think I can get it to work if most of the dimensions can be worked with. I like the idea of doing some customization to avoid a catalog look. I'm not confident about my model painting skills, as it's been a while, but we'll leave that till later. I think the next step would be order some of these kits and see if I can get it to work together in a reasonable fashion... of course.. I'll have to wait for funds.

 

I'm trying to not pinch too much from your layout Ken :P and I've been putting some thought into how I can present a subway scene differently than what you've done, but it's a bit limiting since the only places you can make underground visible is put it on the edge. It's a good thing subways are shorter than the yamanote train... if that's going to be the longest train I put on the layout that's going to exclude full 16 car shinkansens.. which are absurdly long. I'll probably limit my planning to local EMUs to keep it from costing me a kidney.

[KenS]

Yes, underground subways are hard to see. :)

 

Although I did expose mine on a bridge and under the viaduct also.

 

I've seen one other layout with a transparent road surface above the subway, which seemed a bit contirived.  Someone proposed doing a cut-away view, which I think would look better (making it clear part of the scenery was deliberately removed).  I've been considering small cameras on/near the platform(s) and a monitor above the layout.

[macdon]

A crossing can be done but with the tracks on a diagonal as Tomix did for their Layout Room 2.

 

Thats a nice looking viaduct station on the cover of the magazine. Is that custom, old product or something coming out soon?

 

Mardon

[bill937ca]

Thats a nice looking viaduct station on the cover of the magazine. Is that custom, old product or something coming out soon?

 

Mardon

 

Its built with stock items and there is an article on it in that issue.

[lurkingknight]

I guess the tomix buildings are set for the height of finetrack? I don't see a lot of mixing of tomix track interfacing buildings with unitrack.

[bill937ca]

Its a Tomix publication so you will only see Tomix structures.

[lurkingknight]

think I have a working theory.

 

take 2 overhead station kits, strip the ground level stairway off, leaving the upper station and platform stairway, build the island platform, build the viaduct station with 1 track platforms over it, leave 2 side panels off and butt the 2 overhead stations into the viaduct station.

 

Check the fit, and kitbash to merge the 3 together. What I don't know is if the overhead station floor will sit level with the side platforms in the viaduct station. It will at the very least require me cutting the back walls off the overhead stations and at the most, raising the stairs and overhead station to fit the platforms on the upper level.

 

Next step has to be ordering some platforms, the viaduct station kit, and 2 overhead stations.

[cteno4]

Yep that will work. Just a little shimming and merging. I looked at this on the original JRM layout with kato Shinkansen station and kato platforms with the tomix overhead stations but never did it. I did do the tomix overhead with Kati platforms and it works well, just have to shim the bottom of the platform stairs by 2 or 3 mm if memory serves me right.

 

An interesting tomix station idea was in the tomix world book on the giant tomix layout. They laid a tomix high rise on its side over the tracks! Made for an interesting station.

 

Jeff

Edited June 10, 2013 by cteno4

[JR 500系]

Thinking sort of along this vein

http://www.kato-unitrack.co.uk/images/Kato_Track/612-30-3-09.jpg

 

http://www.kato-unitrack.co.uk/images/Kato_Track/layout_403.jpg

@ lurking knight - I love these layout plans!

 

Man i should have research some plans before building mine...

 

The first is great for me, as the size of the overall layout is almost identical to mine. It adds alot of complexity, and also has min 315mm curves for shinkansens.. Bad thing is that it does only allow 6-car sets as can be seen from the stations, but of course you can easily amend that to an 8-car set. On the positive side, i'm really really loving the curves and complexity of the track layout... Would definately be fun watching the shinkansens run here and there! On the negative side, it only has, well, 2 running tracks to be exact and that means only 2 trains will be running at any one time. Also, it kinda eats up too much space and leave minimum space for city building...

 

The next layout is slightly larger, and leaves more space for city building. The station across the yard is a great idea to save space! However, it would be difficult to extend the station to 8-car set consists as the track curves doesn't allow that...

 

Tough to find a real good and complex layout with city building space within a real small space...

 

Anyway, great planning ideas with your layout! Thanks for sharing!

[lurkingknight]

JR500:

 

the first plan does limit city building, but keep in mind I will be extending the cross section to accomodate an 11 car train where the station will be moved to, that means any room inside the loops will be substantially increased, Also it's likely I will not be building all the turnoffs in either layout so that also opens it up a bit inside for buildings. It will depend on how it looks once I start building. But between now and then, there's plenty of time while I accumulate funds. 

 

cteno4:

 

I'm playing with the idea of using the overhead tomix stations, I like the patterning and roofs on them better than the kato buildings, and the overall design seems to be more fitting of what I want. It's also 19$ each vs 44 for the kato.

[bill937ca]

cteno4:

 

I'm playing with the idea of using the overhead tomix stations, I like the patterning and roofs on them better than the kato buildings, and the overall design seems to be more fitting of what I want. It's also 19$ each vs 44 for the kato.

 

That might work, but Tomix uses a 37mm track center and Kato uses a 33mm track center.  To connect Tomix and Kato track requires a special Kato track piece 20-045.

[lurkingknight]

just looked at the first plan a little more closely. I'd need to extend the length of the platform by 3 or 4x248. That would almost double the length of the platform. To retain the L on that layout I will put some straight at the bottom right loop before turning into the under platform section and hopefully fit the equivalent lenght of a ground station to the other end. The entire layout will probably have to be rotated slightly, but I think I can make it work in a larger L shaped table. I'll have to photoshop it real quick and see when I have some time. The side station layout for the upper platform also has the benefit of not having to use a v15 or curve the track out to meet an island platform. The ground platform will be the only one that needs it.  

[lurkingknight]

Long post ahead... putting some thoughts down about where I want to go with this whole thing.

 

 

It's a long, expensive road ahead  :wacko: 

 

 

 

Here's a quick throw together of what I'm thinking so far. I sort of only bought the minimum to play with here in the planning stages. I wanted to test and prove my concept that I could get this to work. So far so good. It's not looking half bad as it sits, and some minor kitbashing should tie it all together nicely.

 

 

Quite obviously, the platforms and viaduct will need to be extended to my desired length... this will be HUGE. I haven't sat down to do the measurements yet, but the platform section itself has to be at least 1.45m long to accommodate the trains I want to run. If a platform section is 248mm long, that means I'll be looking at at least 5-6 lengths of platform section for each station... And there's 3 platforms to extend. Which means I'll need 2-3 more center flag platforms, another overhead station and 6 more side flag platforms. Not including any platform ends or special pieces. Since I have the ends already I might be able to make due, unless I want the center platform pieces that narrow, which will help reduce the overall run of the ground level station. I think including any possible turnouts and main line curves into the rest of the layout loop, I'm looking at maybe 2-2.5m of straight on each station straight.

 

 

Since the viaduct base as it sits is meant for a center platform, I'm going to have some work cut out for me. I will need to either fill out a double wide viaduct platform... which will be extremely costly as that would mean I need double the viaduct pieces, or I can go the route Ken did and build a custom viaduct base to my width and length needs. There's many advantages to this, including added strength since the joiners on the pieces are tiles and I can't stagger them to add strength. I could just glue it all together, but realistically building a base would be far more economical. The only drawback I can see to a custom base is that I would need to find a way to attach viaduct base pieces to the ends to go into the layout loop.

 

The 2nd overhead station will sit on the north end and mirror the existing and butt into the side platform wall to complete the X.

 

 

 

Some customizing will need to be done to make the station appear to be from all 1 set/design. Which means I'll need model painting equipment, paint, etc... I have none of that, nor the skills... so it may take some time to skill up to achieve the final look.

 

Since the platform wall on the side platform is somewhat integral to the side platform, I'm tempted to leave it as is and not use the viaduct walls. I'll need to examine the relationship closer. A custom viaduct base can be made with a lip so the platform doesn't go sliding off the side, or a wall can be made to join with the existing platform wall. That's a pretty minor detail. If the viaduct base is made well enough I can blend the 2 together with or without wall. The underside of the platform doesn't look terrible on the edge.

 

 

This is the biggest issue at play. Since the pieces were not meant to be assembled this way, there's some serious kitbashing to be done here. The back wall of the overhead station will need to be cut open, the back wall of the side platform will need to be cut to match. The platform piece itself will also need to be cut and the overhead station needs to be bridged into the platform with stairs.

 

The good news is that the floor of the overhead station is level with the viaduct base. More good news is that there's a huge window already in the wall of the overhead station, so I can just cut that out. Also what can happen here is that I can create an outdoor walkway and with pieces I have left... from the viaduct side walls, I can repurpose them and kitbash them into the walkway. There's a bit of leeway here, the overhead station doesn't have to butt exactly into the side platform, and chances are it won't. I will need to take measurements from all the mounting positions where the station stairs attach into the platforms below and work out how much walkway I need for the platform posts to all line up. The path of least resistance will be the route to take on this kitbash. All will be clear when it's measured.

 

The walkway solution also gives some leeway into reinstalling the street level access stairways so I don't need a new window to fill that hole in the side of the overhead station. That's more good news.

 

 

Some more minor kitbashing will be needed to address the actual viaduct station buildings. The current setup in the photo can work. For more of an urban landscape some roadways can lead deeper into the nontrain portion of the layout, and having a bus terminal dropoff or a number of taxi stands or a major thoroughfare will further enhance the look and feel that this is a major ubran transit interchange. Ueno station has a street access that crosses under the tracks, so it's not out of the question to orient the buildings like this, the only thing Ueno lacks is a bus terminal, but I'm sure anyone could find a true to life example of something like this... maybe not tokyo, but japan in general for sure.

 

The other option to follow is orient the station buildings as intended longitudinally under the viaduct base. This would mean with the widened custom base, there would be overhang on either side of the station building. That's not a bad thing either. A street could cut in with a loop to access the front of the station just as well as a straight road, or an entire bus or tram terminal loop (a la hiroshima)can be built. That would also not be a bad thing either... (this is getting more expensive by the paragraph lol.)

 

So the last few things to do at this point before it actually starts becoming a layout would be to measure the height clearance under the viaduct and make sure I can actually run a train under it. If I can't that's still not a big deal as I can either raise the base of the viaduct or lower the street level tracks into the tabletop.

 

 

I think the station concept is well within the realm of possibility and not unreasonably expensive. By far and large, the majority of the cost is going to be more in the track layout than the station centerpiece (though as a centerpiece, it should draw your attention) The kitbashing required doesn't seem to be overly difficult, cutting into the side platform to butt stairs into it with the walkway will be the biggest challenge, especially to making it seamless like it was meant to be. It may not be entirely scratch built, but I'll need to source the proper materials to work with.

 

Judging by how some of the pieces are just tabs into sockets, I think I can reasonably disassemble the rooftops and walls for painting.

 

 

The next step now... will be measurements... and then layout planning and budgeting.... then I can actually start a layout thread, rather than a 'I want to try to do this' thread. With the mockup complete, I can focus on the actual track portion, and slowly build pieces towards completing the station. The priorities will be to begin the custom work with what I have already and to actually start accumulating track kits and pieces... since I have none... (lol... expensive)

 

At some point in time after the layout begins to take shape, I'll need to start designing the table... until all the above ground train portion sits on the floor, there's no point in making a home for it, so the table will come after the layout is planned and built... that also lets me abandon the whole idea should priorities change... I like having an out.

 

The subway and tram system planning will probably happen closer towards the designing/building of the table, since the subway plan requires some preplanning to accommodate, since it won't be inset into foam... I'm planning it to be completely modular underneath the table more or less on the edge. It will more than likely just be a simple oval under one of the sections of the L table. The subway will be linked to the above ground portion. All tracks will be double track except for any turnouts and the subway access... it will be a single line to descend under the table to access the subway component.

 

 

Other features will probably be an under viaduct street leading off the layout and possibly a grade crossing on one side, and probably another under viaduct crossing to access the other portion of the L.

 

Going to need lots of buildings... lots. And probably going to end up kitbashing a few skyscrapers together, it is an urban scene after all. Would be nice to have 3 or 4 tall buildings.

 

Buildings will be laid out in blocks which will probably be modular/plug and play in and out of the layout... this would make the layout easy to tear down and transport if I can pack it easily without risking damage. Also makes it easy if I ever have to move. It will reside in my basement, and require that I design the table with this modular idea in mind as well. Quite possibly in 2-4 sections so I can get it up and out of the stairs. Also means it has to be light weight enough.

 

Parks and gardens are a huge thing in Japan, so it would be a shame to leave out the nature component. It would also allow me to put some variation in the layout topography so it's not all flat on ground level. Again this might be modular so that it can be pulled off the layout to make it easier to transport.

 

Electrical will be a challenge... I plan on lighting a lot of stuff.. from buildings to streets to tracks to stations... and trains... which means lighting kits for the trains (will need another train too lol) quite possibly DCC as well to make things easier for train control and lighting stability. I'd like the lights to be separate control on the trains so they don't turn off when the train stops. Will probably need quite a number of power feeds given the length of layout. Since the line will be a double line throughout, multiple controllers will be needed, so that puts more weight into going DCC... with trams and subways as possible expansions, DCC would make far more sense. I'll need to devise a wiring layout and power grid to adequately power the intended lighting system. Instead of the premade lighting kits, I think it would be far more economical to scratch build what I need for the buildings and stations. LEDs are easy to source and run on super low voltage and hardly heat up at all.

 

Populating the layout with people and non rail vehicles will probably be very much later, once things are built and lit, though some populating and lighting setup will probably happen as buildings get added.

 

I'm probably going to have to split this into a blog/independent site at some point, probably when it crosses that threshold of floor top to table top layout... once a table is built, that moves it from dabbling to outright permanent display, so until then, this thread will probably be my guideline and repository for things to add, change, remove. Once I have a temporary layout I'll start a thread in the layout section, but until then I don't want to get anyone's hopes up :P

 

Going to be an interesting, long, expensive project.

[cteno4]

Ahh you are in it thick now!

 

If you find you want to make your own viaduct support platform that matches the thickness of the kato section pieces. If you laminate a 3/16" piece of Masonite on the bottom, a 3/16" piece of foamcore in the middle and a piece of Formica on the top you get a lightweight but very stiff and flat plank that is the same thickness as the kato sections. Then just cut to whatever size you want. Also the foam core layer is right where the kato wall pegs want to be so you can use the walls easily with this system. Homedespot has a gray granite Formica cheap that is very close to unitrak ballast.

 

For lighting stuff, smd LEDs are pretty cheap and easy to wire. You can hook them up to little pots to control the brightness of each to get your structures just right. Also if you are into adurino at all you can get the nanos cheap on ebay to drive a bunch of LEDs and control them to have lights turning on and off at random in a building!

 

Few othe wiring ideas over here

 

http://www.jnsforum.com/community/topic/7596-wiring-advice-tips-for-layout-lighting/?p=84101

 

One trick to easily pull off buildings but have them stuck down well is to just glue little 1x2mm rare earth magnets onto the bottom of the structure and then onto the layout. These are super cheap but really strng. Most of the tomytec buildings have a nice 2mm lip that makes just enough space for two 1mm thick magnets.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50x-Neodymium-Disc-1-12-X-1-25-Rare-Earth-Strong-Magnet-N35-D2x1mm-/170897639079?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item27ca4b06a7

 

Also keep thinking of breaking the eventual layout pieces into movable pieces that are on supports that are easily detachable or sitting atop shelving and/or cabinet units that are easily movable as well. Creating a very built in layout usually means you have to move after you have a good portion done (Murphy's law of layouts!)

 

Cheers

 

Jeff

Edited July 9, 2013 by cteno4

[KenS]

I like the concept.  You've got a lot of work to do, but it should be very interesting.

 

One of the stations I used for inspiration is Kinshicho Station in Sumida (google maps).  It has taxi stand / bus parking on both sides, and a major road under the station, plus it's adjacent to a number of multi-story commercial buildings.

[lurkingknight]

what's the trick to closing a loop? I'm messing around in scarm but I keep ending up with that little bit at the end that I can't close because there's 1 tiny bit of straight that no piece fits in, or it's offset a tiny bit in width or radius. I know there's some math involved but for the life of me I cant' figure out how it all works together.

[Densha]

That's actually quite difficult if you don't know the whole geometry out of your head. :P But I suggest trying to figure it out with track planning software on the pc and remember kato has some special parts that you can use for weird situations: http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003042

[lurkingknight]

I think those pieces are in scarm.. and if they are, I've already tried. The gap I have was actually shorter. I didn't appear as if scarm had any automagic way of resolving the gap, and xtrackcad was more of a pain in the ass to try and figure out before I gave up. If I'm stuck having to mix and match in the software, it would be infinitely less frustrating to have a ton of spare bits and try and resolve it on the actual layout. lol