Cattle loading

[westfalen]

I'm formulating in my mind plans for a single track T-TRAK module steam era JNR branch line terminus and I'm wondering if any of you more knowledgable members might be able to steer me towards some photos of Japanese livestock loading facilities so I can have somewhere to spot my Kawai livestock wagons. Were they like US or Australian stock yards or more like British style cattle loading docks?

[bikkuri bahn]

I can't find anything regarding facilties, this was a marginal business anyway, and one that was taken away by the trucks pretty much in the 1960's.  I assume any loading was simply backing a truck to an open door on the stock car, rather than a dedicated loading pen.

 

Not cattle, but an interesting picture from 1967 of a carload of pigs on the Iiyama Line, behind a C56 (scroll down):

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/bocchi_bochi/11999009.html

[Nick_Burman]

I can't find anything regarding facilties, this was a marginal business anyway, and one that was taken away by the trucks pretty much in the 1960's.  I assume any loading was simply backing a truck to an open door on the stock car, rather than a dedicated loading pen.

 

Not cattle, but an interesting picture from 1967 of a carload of pigs on the Iiyama Line, behind a C56 (scroll down):

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/bocchi_bochi/11999009.html

 

Ramen cubes on the hoof...

 

If I can remember well, I read somewhere that the total JNR cattle car fleet amounted to something like 100 to 150 vehicles. For modelling purposes this means that if you have one cattle car in a collection of, let us say, 50 cars, it will be more than enough (I already have mine and it turns up a little too often on the Tomiiden-JNR interchange track... ).

Anyway, hauling cattle is poor business for the railways - it makes poor use of resources, cars stand unused for half the year - then there is a shortage of equipment on stock rush. Because the cars are specialized they cannot be adequately used for other merchandise, both because of physical and sanitary restrictions. The cattle itself is a low value commodity which makes poor use of the physical space inside the car - on average the contents of four or five stock cars can be squeezed into one reefer or reefer container. Plus the rail company can charge a higher tariff for the meat. In the end it was one kind of traffic which the railways (at least in the US) said "thank goodness" when it finally went away.

 

One of the last railways in the world to operate a high-volume cattle-hauling operation is QR. They deal mainly with cattle which is destined to be turned into halal meat in Malaysia, Indonesia and the Middle East. How on earth QR manages to make a buck on it mystifies me. Maybe Alvin can explain it.

 

Cheers NB

[Nick_Burman]

I can't find anything regarding facilties, this was a marginal business anyway, and one that was taken away by the trucks pretty much in the 1960's.  I assume any loading was simply backing a truck to an open door on the stock car, rather than a dedicated loading pen.

 

Not cattle, but an interesting picture from 1967 of a carload of pigs on the Iiyama Line, behind a C56 (scroll down):

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/bocchi_bochi/11999009.html

 

Ramen cubes on the hoof...

 

If I can remember well, I read somewhere that the total JNR cattle car fleet amounted to something like 100 to 150 vehicles. For modelling purposes this means that if you have one cattle car in a collection of, let us say, 50 cars, it will be more than enough (I already have mine and it turns up a little too often on the Tomiiden-JNR interchange track... ).

Anyway, hauling cattle is poor business for the railways - it makes poor use of resources, cars stand unused for half the year - then there is a shortage of equipment during stock rush. Because the cars are specialized they cannot be adequately used for other merchandise, both because of physical and sanitary restrictions. There there is the cost of watering, feeding and resting the livestock while in transit. The cattle itself is a low value commodity which makes poor use of the physical space inside the car - on average the contents of four or five stock cars can be squeezed into one reefer or reefer container. Plus the rail company can charge a higher tariff for the meat. In the end it was one kind of traffic which the railways (at least in the US) said "thank goodness" when it finally went away.

 

One of the last railways in the world to operate a high-volume cattle-hauling operation is QR. They deal mainly with cattle which is destined to be turned into halal meat in Malaysia, Indonesia and the Middle East. How on earth QR manages to make a buck on it mystifies me. Maybe Alvin can explain it.

 

Cheers NB

[westfalen]

I can't find anything regarding facilties, this was a marginal business anyway, and one that was taken away by the trucks pretty much in the 1960's.  I assume any loading was simply backing a truck to an open door on the stock car, rather than a dedicated loading pen.

 

Not cattle, but an interesting picture from 1967 of a carload of pigs on the Iiyama Line, behind a C56 (scroll down):

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/bocchi_bochi/11999009.html

 

Ramen cubes on the hoof...

 

If I can remember well, I read somewhere that the total JNR cattle car fleet amounted to something like 100 to 150 vehicles. For modelling purposes this means that if you have one cattle car in a collection of, let us say, 50 cars, it will be more than enough (I already have mine and it turns up a little too often on the Tomiiden-JNR interchange track... ).

Anyway, hauling cattle is poor business for the railways - it makes poor use of resources, cars stand unused for half the year - then there is a shortage of equipment on stock rush. Because the cars are specialized they cannot be adequately used for other merchandise, both because of physical and sanitary restrictions. The cattle itself is a low value commodity which makes poor use of the physical space inside the car - on average the contents of four or five stock cars can be squeezed into one reefer or reefer container. Plus the rail company can charge a higher tariff for the meat. In the end it was one kind of traffic which the railways (at least in the US) said "thank goodness" when it finally went away.

 

One of the last railways in the world to operate a high-volume cattle-hauling operation is QR. They deal mainly with cattle which is destined to be turned into halal meat in Malaysia, Indonesia and the Middle East. How on earth QR manages to make a buck on it mystifies me. Maybe Alvin can explain it.

 

Cheers NB

I was starting to think as much. Pigs might be a more common cargo in Japan unless you're in a cattle farming area like Hokkaido anyway. If I set my branch line in a pig raising region I might be able to justify a car or two loading once in a while on market day such as I believe was the case in the UK where some sleepy country branch lines got very busy for one or two days a month. They can just load from the back of a truck in the goods yard.

 

You're right about QR but it's just a shadow of what it was 10-15 years ago. Dinmore meatworks west of Brisbane still get regular shipments from the north but only once a week or so in unit trains of modern container based livestock wagons. When I used to relieve the station master there in the 80's it was not unusual to see a dozen trains a day with the station manned round the clock some nights, and Dinmore wasn't the busiest livestock station in Brisbane either. The large Cannon Hill stockyards are completly gone as is the Beaudesert branch which could also see a half dozen trains a day, Wacol was just as busy and many smaller stations also used to get shipments. Up until the late 80's shippers could order one wagon or even half wagon lots. As for making money, I don't think it does, it's kept going to win the votes of the cattle farming districts, the privatised QR National I think would dearly love to be rid of it so they can concentrate on their real cash cow, coal.

 

That's a good link by the way, I'm just imagining a Kato C56 on my daily mixed train.

[angusmclean]

I also have several of these wagons, so I will follow my local practice (NZ) which has yards similar to past UK types.  I suspect one bullet would account for all of us in this country who model Japanese railways, so strict adherence doesn't mean a lot 

 

Angus

[Kabutoni]

I had somewhat the same problem with livestock transport when drawing these wagons for the Japan Set from OpenTTD (transport business simulation game). I decided that after 1960, livestock would be transported in reefers, rather than dedicated livestock wagons, but it's somewhat the same over the whole world. For some things you just have to make compromises when copying the prototype...

[marknewton]

Not cattle, but an interesting picture from 1967 of a carload of pigs on the Iiyama Line, behind a C56 (scroll down):

 

What makes it even more interesting is that there's a crew compartment on this wagon. Makes me wonder whether its for an attendant to travel with the livestock - which was not uncommon elsewhere in the world - or a guard's compartment - also not uncommon. QR had some cattle wagons that had both, coded KKB.

 

 

Whatever its purpose, I bet the smell would have been interesting as well! 

 

Cheers,

 

Mark

[miyakoji]

Here's a topic that had never occurred to me .  It looks like JNR's cattle cars were KA2000.

 

http://shimpei.3.pro.tok2.com/0001/201_jnr-laboratory/jnr016_ka2000.htm

 

Pig/sheep cars were U, maybe U500 and U700 based on these pictures.  Top one presumably based at Kagoshima, bottom at Kumamoto.

 

http://hokuso-kashiwa.com/shigo/html-shigo-044.html

 

http://www.geocities.jp/morimoritpts42002/etc.htm <- interesting, 12th photo (off-white car) a JNR KA- or possibly U-series car in Taiwan, converted to a... "military encampment car"?  Looks well ventilated!

 

small illustrations of several of these stock cars, including some examples of how the animals would be arranged: http://www.sea.sannet.ne.jp/isesakikidou/kasya10.html

 

http://shimpei.3.pro.tok2.com/0001/001_entrance/index.htm looks really interesting, I'll have to search it for oddball JNR stuff.  expect post later.

[westfalen]

It occured to me that even though JNR only had 100-150 livestock wagons they probably wouldn't be spread all over the system but concentrated in areas where the livestock traffic was, so if you model one of those areas, real or imaginary, you could justify running them on a more regular basis than if your layout served something like a steel mill.

[Nick_Burman]

It occured to me that even though JNR only had 100-150 livestock wagons they probably wouldn't be spread all over the system but concentrated in areas where the livestock traffic was, so if you model one of those areas, real or imaginary, you could justify running them on a more regular basis than if your layout served something like a steel mill.

 

Alvin,

 

I think I misinterpreted the 100 to 150 unit figure. Judging by the http://www.sea.sannet.ne.jp/isesakikidou/kasya10.html site those numbers refer to one single class of stock cars.

 

An interesting detail is the fact that JNR used ordinary boxcars to cope with traffic peaks. The arrangements for the attendants are more inhumane than those for the cattle...

 

Cheers NB

[marknewton]

Morning all!

 

Nick, I think you're right, you may have been mistaken about stock car numbers. One of my books is a rather interesting facsimile reprint of a publication dated May 1947, "Album of Types Of Cars Used For Imperial Japanese Government Railways", produced by the US Army Liaison Office Osaka Railway Division. That book in turn incorporated a "List Of Cars" dated February 1946, produced by the Sapporo Railway Division. The Sapporo list gives a figure of 571 stock cars, in three classes - Ka1, Ka500 & Ka1500 - available for traffic in Hokkaido. It also lists 192 hog cars, in classes U1, U100 & U200. From that I'd assume there's be at least similar numbers of cars in service on Honshu and the other islands.

 

Re your comments about cattle traffic, I agree that it's poor business for the railway for the reasons you outline, but in the past the railway was quite willing to providing specialised vehicles for a service even if it wasn't profitable. The Sapporo list also features 1,674 Tsu-class ventilated cars, for "fresh fruits, vegetables, meat, eggs, fish, live silk worms, frozen meat, young plants and seedlings.", 110 Na-class live fish cars, 52 Po-class porcelain and pottery cars, and 45 Pa-class poultry cars. I can't imagine any of these services were money-makers!

 

Miyakoji, you're correct, the cattle-carrying stock cars were classed Ka, and the sheep/pig cars were U, although the list and a few other sources would indicate there were only 4 types or classes, with the U500 being the last class built. Thsoe links you posted are great, thansk for putting those up.

 

What I need to do now is look through my books for a particular photo I recall. It seemed to show a rudimentary stock loading ramp/facility. I just have to remember where I saw it...

 

BTW, this is a great topic, Westfalen, thanks for starting it off!

 

All the best,

 

Mark.

[Nick_Burman]

Morning all!

 

Nick, I think you're right, you may have been mistaken about stock car numbers. One of my books is a rather interesting facsimile reprint of a publication dated May 1947, "Album of Types Of Cars Used For Imperial Japanese Government Railways", produced by the US Army Liaison Office Osaka Railway Division. That book in turn incorporated a "List Of Cars" dated February 1946, produced by the Sapporo Railway Division. The Sapporo list gives a figure of 571 stock cars, in three classes - Ka1, Ka500 & Ka1500 - available for traffic in Hokkaido. It also lists 192 hog cars, in classes U1, U100 & U200. From that I'd assume there's be at least similar numbers of cars in service on Honshu and the other islands.

 

Re your comments about cattle traffic, I agree that it's poor business for the railway for the reasons you outline, but in the past the railway was quite willing to providing specialised vehicles for a service even if it wasn't profitable. The Sapporo list also features 1,674 Tsu-class ventilated cars, for "fresh fruits, vegetables, meat, eggs, fish, live silk worms, frozen meat, young plants and seedlings.", 110 Na-class live fish cars, 52 Po-class porcelain and pottery cars, and 45 Pa-class poultry cars. I can't imagine any of these services were money-makers!

 

 

Mark,

 

The services you outlined might not have been moneymakers, but some of the vehicles were infinitely more flexible than a stock car... take the Tsu-series cars: although designed for the traffic outlined in the book, nothing stopped JNR using them for other kinds of (clean lading) traffic, especially if it involved a backhaul. Contrary to a stock car, the Tsu cars were always on the move, one reason why there were relatively plenty of them - and why there is hardly a single freight train picture taken in the 50's, 60's and early 70's without one of these cars creeping in somewhere.

 

The Na-series cars could be called a Japanese (culinary... ) speciality. However even they could be more intensively used than a stock car - fish is always in season, especially in Japan. And live fish means a premium tariff.

 

The Pa-class cars I lump into the livestock car class, with the attendant restrictions as I set out before. And the porcelain cars could be described as another Japanese speciality, but even them could be busier than a cattle car - after all the Japanese were/are great producers and consumers of pottery. If you consider that once upon a time station tea vendors gave away the teapots they served tea with to passenger train customers, one can imagine the demand for such products - and what that meant for the fleet.

 

QR's use of containers loaded onto container flats makes much more sense than ordinary stock cars - off-season the cars are used on the general container pool, when the cattle rush begins they are pulled out of the pool and used for livestock.

 

For modelling purposes, one could assume that operation was just like a British-style branch line market day scene: loading/unloading being undertaken directly at the goods yard with the aid of temporary loading ramps and lots of people (farmers/hands/railwaymen) helping guide the cattle in/out of the cars. The Japanese touch would come with the presence of lots of boxcars being used as temporary cattle cars.

 

Cheers NB

[westfalen]

Mark, I think I've created a monster.

 

Nick, as far as I can tell the flatcars used for QR's livestock traffic are dedicated to that service and the livestock containers are mostly to make for easier maintenance over the old wooden wagons. They are a different class to other container wagons and I can't say I've seen them in any other service. A possibility is they went that way so the wagons could be reused if livestock traffic ceased but by now the wagons are getting older themselves and with Pacific National stealing away a lot of container trafffic there is a surplus of newer wagons, in fact a lot of newer container wagons have been scrapped in recent times.

 

My JNR branch might get some Tsu wagons and go after the live silkworm business.

[Nick_Burman]

Mark, I think I've created a monster.

 :laughing4:

 

Nick, as far as I can tell the flatcars used for QR's livestock traffic are dedicated to that service and the livestock containers are mostly to make for easier maintenance over the old wooden wagons. They are a different class to other container wagons and I can't say I've seen them in any other service. A possibility is they went that way so the wagons could be reused if livestock traffic ceased but by now the wagons are getting older themselves and with Pacific National stealing away a lot of container trafffic there is a surplus of newer wagons, in fact a lot of newer container wagons have been scrapped in recent times.

 

I see. However I think my basic reasoning is still sound, it would make for better wagon utilization throughout the year.

 

My JNR branch might get some Tsu wagons and go after the live silkworm business.

 

You might go one step farther and also add a silk-spinning mill. Several Japanese railways (Mie Kotsu Utsube and Hachoji lines, Joshin Dentetsu for instance) grew out of the necessity of servicing silk mills. If I understood correctly Google's garbled translation, Mie Kotsu also hauled coal from Yokkaichi harbour to the mill, to power the spinning machinery.

 

I have only one Tsu (TsuMu) car and it too turns up rather often on the Tomiiden interchange. Like you, I ought to get more cars of the class lest the Tomiisawa Kaki (Persimmon) Growers Co-op decides to switch to trucks...

 

 

 

Cheers NB

[keitaro]

i tried searching and could find little besides a few pics of the box cars themselves.

 

I guess it's a matter of finding popular cattle areas like hyogo prefecture and finding old slaughter houses etc .... i tried but did not find much.

 

 

off topic

also do silk mills still exist like old ones for tourism purposes or actuall business still?

 

I have been interested in seeing one one day. hopefully if it's near an old abandoned line as well to hike on.

[Nick_Burman]

off topic

also do silk mills still exist like old ones for tourism purposes or actuall business still?

 

I have been interested in seeing one one day. hopefully if it's near an old abandoned line as well to hike on.

 

Both, I believe. However present-day silk mills must be highly automated...not much to see. As for old silk mills, there is one in Old Ueno (Ueno-shi, near Takasaki and the original terminal of the Ueno Railway, now the Joshin Dentetsu).

 

Cheers Nb

[keitaro]

off topic

also do silk mills still exist like old ones for tourism purposes or actuall business still?

 

I have been interested in seeing one one day. hopefully if it's near an old abandoned line as well to hike on.

 

Both, I believe. However present-day silk mills must be highly automated...not much to see. As for old silk mills, there is one in Old Ueno (Ueno-shi, near Takasaki and the original terminal of the Ueno Railway, now the Joshin Dentetsu).

 

Cheers Nb

 

interesting i'll have to look this up.

 

Mean while back on topic i'm not sure if i did this right but i posted a question on the mixi forum.

 

こんにちは。

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どのエリアでも構いません。自分でも探していますが、なかなか見つかりません。よろしくお願いします。

 

now to see if i get a reply ...