Tomix CL with Kato Unitram doesn't seem to work

[mojo]

I'm a bit new to CL so please bare with me :)

 

I have a Tomix N-1000-CL controller that, obviously, has Constant Lighting. I also bought a used Unitram from TamTam and when they demonstrated it in the shop the lighting was constant. I should have paid more attention to what type of controller they were using. Anyway, when I try it the lighting only comes on when the throttle is just below the point at which it starts to move.

 

Any ideas? I was under the impression that Kato models generally worked fine with CL, but I guess maybe they need the Kato high frequency AC lighting controller. I did some searching with regards to converting Kato models for CL operation but couldn't find much in English, so before I dive off into long Japanese threads and blog posts about it I thought I would check here.

 

There is surprisingly little information on exactly how CL works, or how it differs from the Kato system. Unfortunately I don't have a Kato lighting controller but I'm going to get my oscilloscope onto the Tomix controller to see what is going on. Since Kato don't make theirs any more do they even still support it?

[bill937ca]

I think you might find that CL is proprietary to Tomix trains.

[westfalen]

Since Kato don't make theirs any more do they even still support it?

They might have dropped it when they started getting into DCC because I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be DCC compatible.

[mojo]

Good point westfalen, Kato did seem to drop HF lighting rather quickly.

 

Thing is they had it working in the shop. Maybe I should drop them an email and ask what the set-up is... But I want to have a good understanding of the technology as well. There really does seem to be very little info available, e.g. http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php?topic=2369.0 is about the best Google throws up. Time to investigate I think.

 

 

I did find this interesting video which suggests that there is further info on Nico Nico, so tomorrow I'll do some searching there and hopefully find time to do some oscilloscope readings.

[bill937ca]

Check the Yahoo Z scale group.  I believe there have been some discussions there.

 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Japanese-Z-Scale/

[CaptOblivious]

Interesting. I've never had CL lighting work at a standstill even on Tomix models with CL lighting!

[inobu]

There is an issue with Kato's motors verses Tomix's CL

 

Rich covered it in reply 5 I believe.   

 

Here is the link

 

I think it is all DC and pulse driven.

 

Kato core motors don't respond to the CL pulses.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

[brill27mcb]

Thanks, inobu, for sparing me from making another sermon, except to say that there is no issue with Kato's motors versus Tomix's CL. There is nothing unique about CL from what I know -- many DC powerpacks control the train speed entirely by making pulses wider or slower. What is a little odd about the Tomix N-1000-CL is that you cannot turn the pulses all the way off. Other PWM controllers, like MRC in the U.S., may also be that way. I run Kato Centram cars on my N-1000-CL all the time, with no ill effects. Basically, I think all LED lighting is "CL" since it will respond to narrow voltage pulses before the motor does.

 

Mojo, your main dial controls the pulse width, from "thin" to "so wide the pulses touch and you then have smooth DC." The outer ring dial can be turned independently, and it simply stops the main dial from going any further toward "off" position. The idea is that you set the outer ring high enough to light the lights but low enough to not cause the train to move. Then, when you bring the train to a stop, the motor should stop but the lights should stay on.

 

I'm not a big fan of lights, so I just tend to keep my CL ring set to the lowest point. If you like the lights to stay on when you stop the train, that's fine, but out of caution I wouldn't leave trains parked that way for long periods. You can center the direction switch or turn off the track section (by the power routing of a turnout). I just don't know the long-term effects on the motors, especially the small low-voltage ones in the Kato Centrams. By the way, "constant lighting" used to mean that the lights maintain an even brightness independent of speed, which LEDs basically do. In general model railroad use, it did not originally mean that the lights stay on when the train is stopped.

 

Read the messages following the one in the link that inobu provided above, to learn more about the two kinds of Tomix CL.

 

Rich K.

[mojo]

Okay, I am not seeing what other people are apparently reporting. Here are my findings. I am using a Tomix 5502 Power Unit N-1000-CL, which as the name implies features Constant Lighting.

 

 

With the throttle set to forwards and 0% this is what I see:

 

 

Absolutely nothing. No PWM, no DC voltage, and obviously no lighting. If I raise the throttle to a few percent:

 

 

17KHz 12V PWM and the LEDs begin to light. By about 10% throttle they are fully on but the train isn't moving. Most of mine need at least 20% to show any signs of moving, many more like 30%. I have noticed that Tomix lighting seems to kick in at lower levels than Kato or MicroAce.

 

         

 

         

 

Moving round the dial the PWM ratio gets lower until it is on fully at 100%. This is what I would expect of a modern PWM throttle. Notice the less than brilliant frequency regulation over the range which suggests a simple analogue control system rather than any kind of digital control. It is different to other Tomix CL controllers though, such as http://www.geocities.jp/motorcityrally_2061/N/cl_power.html.

 

So, just as brill27mcb pointed out, there does not seem to be any constant lighting function per-se, you just set the outer ring to make the 0% throttle position actually around say 10%. I was expecting more... I suppose this method is highly compatible but there are better options, and this isn't a cheap controller either. DCC offers the best solution of course, but Tomix sell some very nice and very expensive controllers featuring CL and so I figured it would be better.

 

Anyway, to resolve my original problem, the threshold for Kato lighting is quite a bit higher than Tomix lighting, so the gap between having the lights on and the motor starting to turn isn't very big. That confused me a bit. There must be a better way so time for some experimentation I think.

 

Thanks everyone, I hope this info will be of use other others too. I will post the results of any experiments I do too.

[inobu]

Rich,

 

Your word of caution has merit..............here is the issue that many people may not realize.

 

Kato runs coreless motors. These motors are copper windings wound to form a cup with epoxy holding it together. A magnetic cylinder is places inside with a shaft through the winding creating the armature. The problem is coreless motors do not have an iron core. The key point to my statement "there is an issue with Kato motors" is based on the lack of an iron core.

 

Here is the principle.......

 

The voltage applied to the track is energy which is either converted to work or dissipated as heat. We can see that the applied voltage from the CL to the track will illuminate the bulb or LED. That illumination is heat. The problem is the windings on coreless motors becomes a "filament" and stores heat as there is nothing to absorb the heat but the windings. Over time this heating can effect the epoxy and/or windings of the aperture. In essence the Kato motors are being heated by the CL's.

 

Iron core motors are much more tolerant and handles heat better than coreless motors but coreless motors are much more efficient.

 

This is just my observation and may not be an issue.

 

Inobu

       

[brill27mcb]

Yes, Inubo, I thought of them, but did not bring it up. I am not a fan of coreless motors, due to their sensitivity. Is there an exact list of which Kato powered units have coreless motors?

 

Mojo, the older Tomix CL power packs have a separate small dial to control the CL feature. On these, they CL control creates pulses of variable width, while the main control dial superimposes smooth DC, as in the waveformsshown in the link you provided.

 

Interesting to me is that your waveform screens for the N-1000-CL does show ALL voltage being off at the fully off position, contrary to what I thought. The thing I find most interesting about the N-1000-CL is its remarkably low weight -- while I have never taken one apart, it is obviously too light to contain the usual big reduction transformer. The N-1001-CL replacement does have a separate wall-wart power supply, similar to the current Kato controller.

 

Rich K.

[mojo]

inobu, a low pass filter would seem to be a good idea for those Kato models. Like Rich I'd love to see a list of trains that have coreless motors.

 

Rich, I will probably open up the N-1000-CL at some point to have a look, but since it is DC in I imagine there is simply a solid state PWM IC inside. I am quite disappointed really, for the cost of this controller I was expecting more. It is a single PWM IC controlled by a potentiometer, probably not too far from the reference design in the datasheet and costing a few quid at most.

 

My current thinking is that either very high frequency PWM (100KHz+) or lower voltage might be the way to go. Unfortunately the lighting circuits tend to be really simple, just a rectifier and current limiting resistor. If they had tried to use any kind of regulation, even just a Zener, it would make life a lot easier. A little SOT package regulator costs pennies and could easily supply the forward voltage of the LED, and then it would be possible to PWM a low voltage signal just for lighting that won't come close to moving it. Even just a small capacitor on the standard lighting board would make a huge difference.

 

In short doing some small mods to the trains might be necessary, but it would be nice if not.

[inobu]

It seems that Kato uses the "coreless motor feature" in their ads from time to time. Which units I don't know. 

 

I think Tomix units have circuitry that supports the CL feature where as Kato does not. Applied voltage is applied voltage and has its effects un-regulated as it either turns into work or heat.

 

Inobu   

[KenS]

All the Kato Japanese commuter/shinkansen EMUs I've taken apart, plus the DE10 and GG1, used a motor with a core.  I read somewhere (on this board?) that the Unitrams used coreless motors from a cellphone vibrator.  I don't have any of their European trains, and they might do things differently for that market.

[Martijn Meerts]

The Unitrams use 6 volt motors I believe, tiny ones that are hidden in the bogies.

 

As for the CL feature, I have a Tomix controller (N-1001-CL) which I've tried with a variety of Tomix engines and cleaning cars. I know for a fact the cleaning cars don't have any special CL lighting circuitry. Haven't tried using any Kato models with out, mainly because I only took out the controller to test, and at the time the only non-DCC trains I had nearby were Tomix :)

[mojo]

Martijn: I will find out soon enough, my Unitram is running a bit poorly and needs cleaning... Not really looking forward to that.