Decoders for 10-408, 10-847, 10-286, 10-491?

[john_ibw]

I am considering going DCC and I am new to DCC. Have zeroed in on NCE PowerCab for throttle and command station.

 

Now, I need to consider decoders for the following sets. I need help with identifying decoders for drive cars and lights.

 

10-408 253 Series Narita Express

10-847 E259 Series Narita Express

10-286 885 Series White Sonic

10-491 Series 800 Tsubame

 

Thanks in advance.

[Martijn Meerts]

If the trains are DCC friendly, you can use Kato's own decoders. Of those listed, I think only the E259 might be DCC friendly though...

 

For the rest, any motor decoder will work for the motor car(s), and any function decoder for the cab cars. If you want to be able to turn on and off interior light, you'll also need a function decoder for all additional cars.

 

Since you're going for the NCE system, you might also want to go for NCE decoders, although any DCC compliant decoder will work with the NCE system. Which decoder(s) you want really depends on what features you want. There are cheap decoders that don't do much other than control the motor, and there are more expensive decoders that can do various extra's such as light effects. Some also have the option to hook up an external sound circuit or additional power storage module (so that the train runs even on difficult turnouts or dirty track.)

 

Personally, I'm really happy with the Lenz Silver+ mini. Not the cheapest, but a very functional decoder, and small enough to fit in almost any train

[CaptOblivious]

They're a little bit out of date now, but you might find these threads helpful:

http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,847.0.html

http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,848.0.html

[The_Ghan]

Hi John,

 

Firstly, I use the Digitrax system.  I chose that system having looked carefully at range of product and support options.  Digitrax also make the proprietary decoders for Kato used in the DCC Friendly models, such as the latest E5 Shinkansen.  Like all other Digitrax decoders, the Kato models are equipped with Transponding, a feature that allows the system to know WHICH train is occupying a section of track.  Other DCC manufacturers use a different system called RailCom, which is not compatible with Transponding, Digitrax, or the Kato decoders.  The upshot is this: to get full compatibility with the Kato decoders you would need to go with Digitrax.  

 

When does this REALLY matter?  Well, you need to consider what percentage of your roster is Kato and what percentage of THAT is DCC Friendly.  I have around 45 consists of which 31 are Kato.  11 are DCC Friendly and accept the Kato decoders.  So, 25% of my fleet is DCC Friendly.  For me, that justifies going with Digitrax as, sometime in the future, I intend to implement Transponding.  So, you should probably consider how your roster might expand in the future before that "zeroed-in" becomes a "purchase".

 

That said, there are a number of fine systems on the market and NCE is certainly one of them.  Different systems appeal to different people and you don't NEED to use NCE decoders with an NCE controller.  You'll find plenty of people here using systems other than Digitrax - even people who've created their own DCC system from scratch.

 

As to your roster: I don't have ANY of the models you've listed.  I've checked the Kato website and none are listed as being DCC Friendly anyway.  However, don't believe everything you read.  I bought the E5 thinking it wasn't DCC Friendly (according to the webpage) until KenS set me straight here: http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,3833.150.html.  Take a look at the images so you know what to look for.

 

Irrespective of which system you go for, I can only advise on Digitrax decoders.  For non-DCC Friendly consists you need to consider the following:

1. Head and Tail lights should be converted to LED;

2. Do you want the lights to operate automatically with change of direction or do you want to turn them on and off separately as you would in prototype?

 

There are various threads here about bulb to LED conversion.  

 

My favourite motor decoder right now is the DZ123 - it is cheap and robust.  To have the Head and Tail lights change automatically with a change in direction I also use the DZ123 in the cab cars, but I wire up the lights to the grey and orange wires (the motor wires) with a resistor in series.  There is a separate thread a few months back where I learned how to do that.  Make sure the address of all three decoders is the same.  Then, if I change the direction that my consist is travelling the lights change automatically.  However, I've outgrown that idea and now prefer to change the lights separately.  For this I go with the TF4, a quad function decoder.  I can then turn the lights on and off as I please, independently of the direction of travel.

 

Bonus advantage:  All Digitrax decoders include Transponding, so if you're going that way, you will have three decoders in an EMU all reporting what consist is where, which is what I want to happen.

 

Now, here's the limitation: the Digitrax TF4 does not allow me to dip the lights as a train enters a station, at least as far as I can tell.  My lights are on, or off.  I believe that TCS produce a function decoder that is better suited to controlling the lights - the FL4.  CaptainObvious is, I think, a big fan of this.  The TCS FL4 allows lights to be dipped, I believe.

 

So, there's just one perspective on the whole DCC + Kato affair.  It's valid and it works.  Others here will have a different, equally valid approach.  The Cap'n, KenS, and Martijn are all more experienced than me and are using different systems.

 

Wishing you all the best.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Martijn Meerts]

One little detail about transponding and railcom, both system work pretty much the same, but as The Ghan says, are indeed not compatible. Railcom has been adopted by the NMRA to become the standard for bidirectional communications, so chances are railcom will see more support than Digitrax's transponding system. There is now also Railcom Plus, which allows decoders to advertise themselves to command station when they're put on the track. You won't need to manually register the train in the command station anymore. This is a new system though, and has VERY limited support as of yet.

 

It's all pretty moot though, because transponding/railcom still has very limited possibilities. It'll be nice for computer controlled layouts, but so far, few programs support it in a way that makes it useful.

 

Digitrax also has the LocoNet bus, which is a great system for occupancy detection, especially when building modular layouts. Systems like the S88 bus that's very common (and therefor quite cheap) are nice as well, but make computer controlled modular layouts a pain. Just something to consider :)

[john_ibw]

Thanks guys. I have also been able to do some research in the last couple of days. I have not finalised the purchase. And it seems like budget is going to be the biggest driver to go DCC in my case. I can turn off the lights for the time being and only install decoders for the motor cars in the first phase.

 

To Ghan: I currently own a MiniTrix ICE, Kata Narita (10-408) and a GF class 37 in N. I intend to buy at 3 more sets in N from Kato. The Class 37, if I don’t convert to DCC, I am fine too. However, I have a LENZ back home (i am currently in Australia on temporary basis) purchased for my OO layout. I am not keen on using the LENZ for my trains. I was planning to use that for the Unitram at a later date. That said, I have over 25 in the roster in OO that I will convert to DCC. I was hoping that I will only then require NCE with an additional booster for both my N and OO layout with proper wiring and segregation. That was one of the reasons, I was considering the NCE.

 

All the same, I will firm up some plans in the coming week. I have obtained most of the track needed for the layout. So, in the coming weeks, I will at least make progress in the front and keep you posted.

 

Thanks again!

[The_Ghan]

If you are in Sydney you might want to get to the Castle Hill show over the June long weekend.  Doug Costa's 2 Sides of Japan layout will be there - although his mate Ed never actually completed the 2nd side ...  ... but Doug's layout is a multi award winner and crowd pleaser ...  ...  Doug is also a wealth of information and level-headed advice on Japanese model trains.  He has no plans to go digital though.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[nik_n_dad]

You're going to want the lights sooner than later, so I'd suggest having Don do the wire-in installs for you and get it all over with in one swoop.  We've had a number done by him- top notch work.  Gives us more time to play with trains, instead of me going blind working on them late at night 

[john_ibw]

Is Don in Sydney area? I am new myself, so pardon my ignorance. Is there a URL? Or hobby store name?

[john_ibw]

I did some research and so far, I have been able to identify the following. Can someone confirm if I am heading in the right direction? I am far from making the purchase. Need time to save for this purchase.

 

For the KATO 10-408, 10-286 and 10-491 motor, NCE N14SR or Digitrax DZ125. For cab and other cars, Digitrax TL1?

For the KATO 10-847 - EM13 and Fl12. Can I use any other? I am not sure if these are easy to come by.

[KenS]

I can't speak to the others, but the 10-847 has the appropriate sockets for the Kato 29-351 EM13 and 29-352 FL12 (I haven't actually converted mine yet though).

 

Finding these can be problematic.  MB Klein (modeltrainstuff.com) stocks them, but they're often sold out (they only have the EM13 at the moment). If you look around (google works well for this) you can probably find a few others who have them.

 

You can, of course, install something else in this train. But nobody makes a drop-in equivalent, so it would be a wire-in job using something like the DZ125 for the motor. I haven't seen the lightboard, so I don't know what the cab needs.

[john_ibw]

Let me start by saying I am sorry if I am "not getting it” and I am asking silly questions.

 

For the older Narita, 10-408, can I upgrade to 11-210 LEDs and use the FR11 decoders? Should I do so for the lead and motor cars also? Or can I use the motor / function decoders and wire the lights to it since most decoders have additional functions?

 

For the KATO 10-847 and 10-848, how many decoders are needed in total? 2 FL12, 1 EM13 and how many FR11?

 

Thanks!

[john_ibw]

I missed Ghan’s thread http://www.jnsforum.com/index.php/topic,4227.msg42984.html#msg42984. I think it covers the questions I had. Sorry guys! Newbie :)

[nik_n_dad]

John-

 

Apologies, I missed that you are in Sydney.  Don is one of the folks that helps run this site.  His DCC install website is http://railstars.org/store/  Apologies if I'm violating the forums rules but pitching the Captain's service. 

[john_ibw]

No worries nik_n_dad. I figured later as to who you were talking about. I would gladly have got his help if we were closer.

[The_Ghan]

I did some research and so far, I have been able to identify the following. Can someone confirm if I am heading in the right direction? I am far from making the purchase. Need time to save for this purchase.

 

For the KATO 10-408, 10-286 and 10-491 motor, NCE N14SR or Digitrax DZ125. For cab and other cars, Digitrax TL1?

For the KATO 10-847 - EM13 and Fl12. Can I use any other? I am not sure if these are easy to come by.

 

 

John,

 

I've got a pretty extensive post earlier in this thread that talks about decoders.  I'm using the DZ123 rather than the DZ125 at the moment.  Others have reported burn outs on the 125s, I haven't, but I'm using the 123s to avoid the chance.  They're $1 cheaper too.  Don't go for the TL1s.  They're single function only.  Use them to add transponding or control in-car lighting on non-DCC Friendly models, if you must.  Use the TF4 (which has 4 functions) instead.  There are no substitute decoders for EM-13, FL-12 and FR-11.  Be patient and buy them when they're next in stock.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[The_Ghan]

Let me start by saying I am sorry if I am "not getting it” and I am asking silly questions.

 

For the older Narita, 10-408, can I upgrade to 11-210 LEDs and use the FR11 decoders? Should I do so for the lead and motor cars also? Or can I use the motor / function decoders and wire the lights to it since most decoders have additional functions?

 

For the KATO 10-847 and 10-848, how many decoders are needed in total? 2 FL12, 1 EM13 and how many FR11?

 

Thanks!

 

 

 

Hi John,

 

I've got enough 11-210 LEDs to do 60 cars.  For these you use the FR-11 for DCC-Friendly models and a function-only decoder for non-DCC-Friendly models.  The correct Digitrax decoder is the TF1.  No, I haven't done my 60 cars worth yet.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[john_ibw]

Thanks The_Ghan. I now can prepare a list to start with.

 

The reason I am ahead of myself on the DCC conversion plan is because I wish to buy the DCC (if possible) and other stuff before I leave Australia in another 3 months. I won't earn at par after that. Hence the hurry and it is possible I won't do any major spending for a while after  :)

[The_Ghan]

Hi John,

 

Yup, we're lucky down-under with the dollar above par at the moment.  I'm stocking up on platforms and things myself, as well as some DCC stuff.

 

I'd be interested in seeing a schematic of your layout and might be able to help you economise on stationary decoders, occupancy detection and transponding.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[john_ibw]

That will be cool. Please note that mine is not an elaborate layout. I will have something in AnyRail done this weekend and post it.

 

Basically, it is a double line that runs into a viaduct station that has sidings. I have ordered a second viaduct to widen the one I already have. The double viaduct tracks runs around a untiram layout. I am having trouble with the yard design and have not got a good one. To economise, I purchased 2 V4s and a double crossover set. Using only those, I need to integrate the yard into the mainline. I have been collecting the structures over the last 6 months. So, have a decent assortment of Kato structures.

[KenS]

Let me start by saying I am sorry if I am "not getting it” and I am asking silly questions.

 

For the older Narita, 10-408, can I upgrade to 11-210 LEDs and use the FR11 decoders? Should I do so for the lead and motor cars also? Or can I use the motor / function decoders and wire the lights to it since most decoders have additional functions?

 

For the KATO 10-847 and 10-848, how many decoders are needed in total? 2 FL12, 1 EM13 and how many FR11? 

 

The 10-408 comes with bulb interior lights (I have one, although I haven't taken it apart).  There's nothing that indicates that it uses Kato's standard interior lighting kit or is compatible with their LED lights and FR11.  I think you'll need a wire-in decoder, but you can probably use the same one for the motor and cab lights (i.e., one per car if you pick the right one). But note that if you keep the bulb lights, you need to worry about the higher current than a LED light would have.

 

The 10-847/848 need one EM13 for the motor car, and one FL12 for each cab.  With Kato's 11-209/210 LED interior lighting you can use the FR11, and if you do you'll need one for each car, including the motor and cab cars (the lighting is completely separate from the cab lights and motor). Also, with Kato's LED lights, you only need the FR11 if you want to turn them off.  The LEDs reportedly work just fine on DCC without those.

[The_Ghan]

Yes, the LED in-car lighting kits work fine on DCC without the FR-11, which is only required if you want to turn the lights on and off.  It's an expensive solution.  The cheap way is to cut the power to sidings containing trains in storage.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[john_ibw]

I'd be interested in seeing a schematic of your layout and might be able to help you economise on stationary decoders, occupancy detection and transponding.

Attached is a drawing of the proposed layout. The yard will have to be redone since I do not have 8 nos of the left turnouts. You had mentioned Digitrax and transponding earlier. Since then, I have been reading up and I am now considering going Digitrax. Zephyr Xtra seems like a good place to start. You were right, since all of the decoders that I could locate for my trains were from Digitrax, the stationary decoders from Digitrax makes sense. I can later upgrade with the BLD168 too. I have started work on the layout with a batch of structures and track delivered to me a few weeks ago. I am waiting for the 2 trains I ordered recently.

 

Any help with the turnout decoders and transponding will be much appreciated. The DS64 allows for upto 4 trunouts to be connected together which is great. Thanks in advance. 

[KenS]

This thread has wandered a bit off the original topic, and would probably benefit from being split.

 

If you want to use transponding, you really only need the BLD168 (or other Digitrax occupancy detector supporting the RX4), the RX4 and a computer program (third-party; Digitrax doesn't sell one) that understands the LocoNet messages it produces, as well as a Loconet/USB interface.  You don't actually need to use a Digitrax command station or other Loconet accessories. 

 

But the Xtra is a good choice of command station regardless.

 

Each BLD168 has 16 occupancy detectors organized in four sets of four.  Each set has a separate input, and can be used with a separate circuit breaker input (e.g., the PM42 with four circuit breakers per board is a good match).  The BLD168 can connect to up to two sets of RX4 transponding detectors (each set has four RX1 detectors).  The eight RX1s can be used with any of the four inputs or 16 outputs, to provide up to 8 transponding detectors in addition to the 16 occupancy detectors.  According to the documentation you can even run two (or more?) occupancy detector wires through a single RX1, so you can get more benefit from the RX1.  I'm unclear to what extent this is supported by software, as I'm still building my PM42/BLD168/RX1 system and haven't started using it yet.

 

One thing I learned late about this system is that the PM42 can't share a power supply with the command station or booster.  I was going to use one quarter of a PS2012 to power the PM42/BLD168 systems, and another for the command station.  According to the documentation, you can't do that. And it makes sense, as in a short there is an impact to the power supply before the circuit breaker kicks in. Digitrax strongly recommends use of their individual power supplies for things like the PM42, and while that costs more than a big, central supply, it appears to be a good idea.

 

The DS64 has four outputs.  When used with Kato's switches (or Tomix's, I believe), each output can throw up to four switches as one operation.  The most common use for this is connecting the crossover (four switches with one wire) to one of the outputs.  But you can also throw both ends of a siding, for example, with one output.

 

The DS64 can be either a motor controller, for things like slow-motion motors (e.g., Tortoises) used to control switches, semaphore signals, or crossing gates, or a solenoid controller, for Kato/Tomix switches.  However, an indvididual DS64 has to be one or ther other, you can't split outputs between crossing gates and Kato switches, for example.

[The_Ghan]

Hi John,

 

I'm in the process of marking up your plan.  Infortunately at the moment wife has other plans ... shall revert tomorrow.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan