KATO 10-510 Shinkansen 500 is there two different versions?

[CaptOblivious]

Oh goodness, I got confused: I had thought Ghan was the original poster.

 

Ghan:

The wattage of the resistor can be calculated by the forumla P=V^2 / R where P = power, V = voltage, and R = resistance. Figure that V will peak at 12–14V, depending on the voltage on the track, and you picked R=120ohms, so worst-case P = (14*14)/120 = 1.7ish watts. That's a lot! Pick a 2W resistor.

 

The resistor will be soldered between the orange and grey leads (the motor leads).

 

The TCS FL4 handles four functions, FWIW, and so is a bit cheaper and easier to install than a 4-function motor decoder.

 

Spiff:

If you don't need transponding (and, really, you don't), then I would go with the TCS FL4. It's a very robust decoder, and has a very nice warranty on it: If you break it, burn it, flush it, stomp on it, eat it, whatever, just send it back and they'll send you a new one, so you can relax a bit if this is your soldering learning experience.

[Spaceman Spiff]

 

The TCS FL4 handles four functions, FWIW, and so is a bit cheaper and easier to install than a 4-function motor decoder.

 

 

 

Thanks CaptOblivious for the reply.

 

So with the TCS FL4 I wouldn't need to worry about resisitors. Just solder the leads to the lights as per instructions?

 

Spiff

[CaptOblivious]

 

The TCS FL4 handles four functions, FWIW, and so is a bit cheaper and easier to install than a 4-function motor decoder.

 

 

 

Thanks CaptOblivious for the reply.

 

So with the TCS FL4 I wouldn't need to worry about resisitors. Just solder the leads to the lights as per instructions?

 

Spiff

 

Yep!

[KenS]

The point of the resistor as I take it is to fool a decoder that expects to have a motor into believing that it has one, so one is not needed when using a "stationary" or "lighting" decoder, like the TL4, that omits the motor circuitry.

 

However, a resistor isn't a true analog for a motor (motors use less power, once they get up to speed, due to generated Back-EMF, whereas resistors use power that depends on the voltage applied). And I'm a bit unsure how one would interact with a decoder that has Back-EMF support (which adjusts output power in reaction to motor speed inferred from Back-EMF).

 

Ghan, have you used this method (or read of it being used) before?  I'd be worried that you might overload the decoder by pulling a larger continuous current than a motor would require. It's also wasteful, if you want to run multiple trains off a limited supply.

 

I'd also suggest a much larger resistor, to lower the wasted power (i.e., heat).  I don't know if there's a threshold you have to meet to get it to work, but I'd aim for a quarter-watt resistor (meaning something like a 1000 ohm resistor). That would be closer to the ~30 mA power a modern motor draws (and many draw less).  The 120 Ohm resistor is like having a stalled loco drawing maximum (stall current) power. And if a larger resistor (less power) would work, I'd use that.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks again for all the help.

 

FL4's for the cabs and DZ125's for the motors it is. Off shopping I go.

 

 

Spiff

[CaptOblivious]

The point of the resistor as I take it is to fool a decoder that expects to have a motor into believing that it has one, so one is not needed when using a "stationary" or "lighting" decoder, like the TL4, that omits the motor circuitry.

 

However, a resistor isn't a true analog for a motor (motors use less power, once they get up to speed, due to generated Back-EMF, whereas resistors use power that depends on the voltage applied). And I'm a bit unsure how one would interact with a decoder that has Back-EMF support (which adjusts output power in reaction to motor speed inferred from Back-EMF).

 

Ghan, have you used this method (or read of it being used) before?  I'd be worried that you might overload the decoder by pulling a larger continuous current than a motor would require. It's also wasteful, if you want to run multiple trains off a limited supply.

 

I'd also suggest a much larger resistor, to lower the wasted power (i.e., heat).  I don't know if there's a threshold you have to meet to get it to work, but I'd aim for a quarter-watt resistor (meaning something like a 1000 ohm resistor). That would be closer to the ~30 mA power a modern motor draws (and many draw less).  The 120 Ohm resistor is like having a stalled loco drawing maximum (stall current) power. And if a larger resistor (less power) would work, I'd use that.

 

 

The resistor is also for reading back CVs on the programming track, and acknowledging programming. Ever wonder why your train does a little dance when you program a CV? That's how it acknowledges the programming took: By drawing a little bit of power, by jiggling the motor. So you can't use a resistor that's too too big, on pain of losing the ability to confirm programming, or read back CVs on the programming track. I think the magic number was 8 or 10mA? In which case, 120ohms is about right…

[KenS]

The resistor is also for reading back CVs on the programming track, and acknowledging programming. Ever wonder why your train does a little dance when you program a CV? That's how it acknowledges the programming took: By drawing a little bit of power, by jiggling the motor. So you can't use a resistor that's too too big, on pain of losing the ability to confirm programming, or read back CVs on the programming track. I think the magic number was 8 or 10mA? In which case, 120ohms is about right…

 

Good point, but I think you dropped a zero.  I=V/R = 12/120 = 0.1 (100 mA), not 0.01 (10 mA).  A kOhm might be a bit large, and backing down to 680 (another standard 10% size) gives 18 mA and 211 mW, although it would exceed 250 mW on a 14-volt system like a Zephyr. An 820 Ohm resistor would give 15 mA (which might be a bit low) on 12 volts, but 239 mW on a 14-volt system, which would be safer.

 

And aside from wasted power, and unnecessary heat inside the car, quarter-watt resistors are going to be easier to find than 1 - 2 watt resistors.

[David]

The resistor is also for reading back CVs on the programming track, and acknowledging programming. Ever wonder why your train does a little dance when you program a CV? That's how it acknowledges the programming took: By drawing a little bit of power, by jiggling the motor. So you can't use a resistor that's too too big, on pain of losing the ability to confirm programming, or read back CVs on the programming track. I think the magic number was 8 or 10mA? In which case, 120ohms is about right…

 

This is also one of the reasons the Kato light decoders act so weird when you try to program them - they can't do acknowledge or do read back (no idea why this kind of flaw was allowed - did Digitrax just supply the chips, and left the rest of the design to DCC-newbie Kato?)

[The_Ghan]

Hey Spiff,

 

Confirming that the resistor required is 120 Ohm 1/4W.  I've gone for the better quality metal film resistors.  At $2.19 including postage for 100x I thought it was a good deal.  I own 19 trains - so I'm going to use at least 38 resistors on my current collection.  Buying a hundred should see me through to about 50 trains, presuming all the resistors are good, which leads me to another point:

 

Buy yourself a "breadboard".  It is a solderless PCB board (circuit board) that you can plug electrical components into to make prototypical circuits.  I use it to test components before fitting them, including decoders!

 

Here is the link for the resistors: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/100-pcs-1-4W-120-ohm-1-Metal-Film-Resistor-/120480321426?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c0d2fcf92

 

Here is a link for a breadboard with jumpers: http://cgi.ebay.com.au/840-Points-Solderless-BreadBoard-2-pc-/220525727015?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item33585b8d27

 

Now, young Jedi, it is time to build your first light-sabre !!!

 

I hope all this is helpful.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[KenS]

The resistor is also for reading back CVs on the programming track, and acknowledging programming. Ever wonder why your train does a little dance when you program a CV? That's how it acknowledges the programming took: By drawing a little bit of power, by jiggling the motor. So you can't use a resistor that's too too big, on pain of losing the ability to confirm programming, or read back CVs on the programming track. I think the magic number was 8 or 10mA? In which case, 120ohms is about right…

 

This is also one of the reasons the Kato light decoders act so weird when you try to program them - they can't do acknowledge or do read back (no idea why this kind of flaw was allowed - did Digitrax just supply the chips, and left the rest of the design to DCC-newbie Kato?)

 

Readback depends on reducing the load by cutting out the motor to modulate the current draw (load). They would have needed to design in a large load resistor and some extra circuitry to selectively cut it into the circuit during programming to enable readback to work (or leave it always on, and use one that could handle the power, which probably wouldn't fit on the board).  It's annoying not to have readback, but I can understand why they designed it that way.

[The_Ghan]

The resistor is also for reading back CVs on the programming track, and acknowledging programming. Ever wonder why your train does a little dance when you program a CV? That's how it acknowledges the programming took: By drawing a little bit of power, by jiggling the motor. So you can't use a resistor that's too too big, on pain of losing the ability to confirm programming, or read back CVs on the programming track. I think the magic number was 8 or 10mA? In which case, 120ohms is about right…

 

Good point, but I think you dropped a zero.  I=V/R = 12/120 = 0.1 (100 mA), not 0.01 (10 mA).  A kOhm might be a bit large, and backing down to 680 (another standard 10% size) gives 18 mA and 211 mW, although it would exceed 250 mW on a 14-volt system like a Zephyr. An 820 Ohm resistor would give 15 mA (which might be a bit low) on 12 volts, but 239 mW on a 14-volt system, which would be safer.

 

And aside from wasted power, and unnecessary heat inside the car, quarter-watt resistors are going to be easier to find than 1 - 2 watt resistors.

 

 

Ken,

 

I've got an email from digitrax that suggests 120 Ohm 1/4W ... I had previously suggested a 2W resistor to them - which I can also get on eBay.  Now I'm thinking of going back to the TF4, but I'll run the math past the guys at Digitrax again ...

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the info The_Ghan.

 

The young Jedi now needs to work more for the last train order. Lol

 

 

 

Spiff

[inobu]

What Capt O was alluding to in his recommendation for function only decoders verses motion decoders is your best bet. Lighting decoders are sub system decoders and just need to switch on and off nothing else. The added cost of a motion decoder can add up especially for a feature that you are going omit.  

 

I'm not sure about the resistor on the motor lead. From my understanding the decoder has a bridge rectifier that converts the track power back to DC which powers the decoder. The chip has multiple DC outputs and those outputs depend on the model of chipset used. (This is where the cost factor in chip set dictates the cost structure of a 2 function verses 6 function decoders.) The decoder applied voltage to the motor lead only when instructed to other than that voltage is off.  I don't think the resistor is needed but I'm not 100% sure

 

I think the read back functions are based on the PIC's register configuration and written programming instruction. The decoder will only place voltage on leads when instructed to by a CV command other than that the lead are 0 DC volts and I don't think the decoders programming checks for lead conditions.

 

In any case your best bet is to get a simple 2 function decoder and wire it in. The challenge is in the light board and getting it right. The original light board is designed to react to the reversal in track polarity as the led cathodes are reversed and operate based on the applied voltage polarity. You have to adapt to this.

 

I stopped doing my light because I wanted to get all my units converted to DCC first. I could do without light more so then having units sit idle without decoders. I want to rebuild the light boards anyway.

 

Good luck and enjoy.

 

This is probably the best forum you will find. A lot of good people. 

 

Inobu  

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hi, I just want to keep things simple.

 

Is the TCS FL4 decoder essentially the same as the Digitrax TF4?

The DCC guy at my club mentioned earlier to use the TF4. Hence the question.

 

Spiff

[CaptOblivious]

Hi, I just want to keep things simple.

 

Is the TCS FL4 decoder essentially the same as the Digitrax TF4?

The DCC guy at my club mentioned earlier to use the TF4. Hence the question.

 

Spiff

 

They are pretty much identical, except the the TCS FL4 allows you to program automatically reversing lights (so that the headlights turn off automatically in reverse, and the marker lights on). In general, the TCS decoder is more flexible with how you can set up lighting effects. So, for this reason, I strongly prefer the TCS one.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks CaptOblivious.  I have sent TCS an email to see if I can some installation info. I will order the decoders shortly. I am just debating on wether or not I should order now or just wait until the trains arrive from Japan.

 

Have a great weekend.

Cheers

 

Spiff

[inobu]

Spiff,

 

I would wait on the train. That way you can make an assessment on exactly what you are dealing with. Take your time and you will be good to go.

 

 

Inobu

[Spaceman Spiff]

You're right I should wait.

 

Spiff

[inobu]

Spiff,

 

I know you are dying to do something in anticipation of the JR 500. So I'll make this suggestion. Make a tools and supply list, make sure you have all the things needed.

Brush up on your soldering techniques if need be.

 

Inobu

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hi inbox,

 

I know the thread started out as 500 but some where along the line my mind was changed. I ended up ordering a Tomix 0 Series, Kato 100 series and a Kato 800 series. I figured my first foray into the Japanese theme I would go classic and modern.

 

The retailer I am considering buying the decoders and an add on car set for the 100 has them on sale so I may order them right away before the sale ends.

 

 

Spiff

[inobu]

It is good that your are purchasing both Kato and Tomix. You can compare the construction type of both. I prefer Kato over Tomix although Tomix seems to have a wider selection. When it comes to DCC installation Tomix can be challenging.

 

Just make sure you have all your tools, supplies and a proven installation process.

 

Tools and Supplies are important.

 

Jeweler screw drivers

Tweezers

Correct wattage Soldering iron and matching tip.

Clamps or mini vice.   

 

Kapton tape

Thin Solder

flux

Magnet wire 30 to 32 gauge

Low tack masking tape.

 

Make sure you test your decoder first. That way you will know if it is an installation error verses a DOA.

 

The reason I keep harping on the tools and supplies is from experience. Installation troubles start when we have to improvise. Because we want to complete the job first we sometimes compromise our standards. I use low tack tape to secure the item on the work surface so I can wire or solder the larger units easier. Flux makes tinning easier and soldering a mere dab and touch process. Kapton tape is a must for motor isolation.

 

Check out Capt O installation tuts on his link. I and many others have theirs posted in the forum here. That way you can get an idea on the different methods. The decoder installation on the Japanese units are a little more complex in some cases.

 

In any case your installation will go smoothly when you have all the tools readily available. 

 

Inobu 

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for checklist inobu.

 

 

Spiff

[Martijn Meerts]

The newer Tomix 0 series (and 100, and 300, and some others) are, from a running characteristics points of view, far superior to the Kato versions due to the power conducting couplers. The "disadvantage" is that none of the Tomix stuff is so-called "DCC Friendly" ..

 

It's very much a personal preference though, I don't see Kato being any more DCC friendly than Tomix other than Kato's trains that are designed to fir their own decoder. Their decoders though are VERY limited with regards to functionality compared to many other decoders. Of course, the decoder also tend to be cheaper than most others. Personally, I solder all my decoders, I've had far too many problems with the various sockets and plug & play stuff. Again, it's personal preference.

 

My tools list is a lot shorter than Inobu's it seems. I have a high quality soldering station, some decent tin and blue-tack like stuff to keep things in place. Occasionally I also use a pair of tweezers and kapton tape. I also always remove all the wires from decoders, and start with soldering wires to the motor/frame/lights. I shorten the wires on the decoder end. With a good soldering station/iron, I found this to give me cleaner results.

[The_Ghan]

Martjin,

 

I've nicknamed the Kato stuff "plug and pray".  In some models the decoder does not sit in the correct position because the tolerances are not tight enough.  In my opinion, this is a design fault.  They should be relying on a pin and socket connection rather than a miniature PCB cutout template.

 

Cheers,

 

The_Ghan

[Martijn Meerts]

Martjin,

 

I've nicknamed the Kato stuff "plug and pray".  In some models the decoder does not sit in the correct position because the tolerances are not tight enough.  In my opinion, this is a design fault.  They should be relying on a pin and socket connection rather than a miniature PCB cutout template.

 

Cheers,

 

The_Ghan

 

I've had problems with the pin and socket ones as well, especially the NEM651 can be a pain, and that one happens to be the most common in European N-scale =)