KATO 10-510 Shinkansen 500 is there two different versions?

[The_Ghan]

Warning: I can not see Hobby Search in English after clicking on Clems link to the Nozomi Sayonara 500 link.  All of my usual short cuts now flick me on to the Japanese site.  I have emailed support for help.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[David]

I've been getting the same thing, but was holding off on posting anything until it had a chance to resolve itself. I think something has gone wrong in their script that redirects people in Japan - it's redirecting everyone now.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I can get the 16 car Tomix Sayonara set as it is available. I am just debating whether or not it's worth the extra cash. I can't seem to get confirmation if the set had two power units or one. If it has two then the extra cost may be worth it.

 

 

Does the Tomix use the same decoders? Simuliar decoder install?

 

 

Spiff

[Martijn Meerts]

All 16 car Tomix shinkansen that I have (quite a few by now) have 2 motor cars, it seems fairly standard for them.

 

If you want to install decoders, you'll have to solder them in, Tomix doesn't have any sort of dcc-friendly plug type of thing. Installing a decoder in a shinkansen is real easy though, lots of room to work with :)

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hi Martijn, are you happy with the way Tomix sets run?

 

Cheers

 

Spiff

[The_Ghan]

Warning: I can not see Hobby Search in English after clicking on Clems link to the Nozomi Sayonara 500 link.  All of my usual short cuts now flick me on to the Japanese site.  I have emailed support for help.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

Hobby Search website back to normal.

[Martijn Meerts]

Hi Martijn, are you happy with the way Tomix sets run?

 

Cheers

 

Spiff

 

Yes, very happy. Especially the newer ones run great, because they have power conducting couplers, and thus power pickup from all 16 cars. I do have some noisy Tomix shinkansen as well, but they're older sets.

[The_Ghan]

Thanks for the links David. I may go the Model Train Stuff route. Their Shinkansen 800 set is expensive though. I may just suck it up as it probably better to deal with a retailer instead of of Ebay seller in case there are issues.

 

Does anyone know if the DZ125 decoder works for the lights also or just the motor on the 500? How about the 800 series?

 

In both trains the motor car doesn't have any lights for the DZ125 to control because it's in the middle (unless you install interior lights in the cars, in which case the DZ125 could control those). A challenge with Japanese trains and DCC is that most of them need 3 decoders - 1 decoder for the motor car in the middle, and a decoder for each cab car (2).

 

The DZ125 has wires for a motor and 2 "functions". Each function is basically one LED (or group) that can be turned on and off. A cab car usually needs at least 2 functions - 1 for the forward (white) lights, and 1 for the reverse (red) lights. If you add interior lights that is a third function. Something to note however is that most regular decoders need to be wired to a motor to work correctly (they need the motors load for some operations). The same goes for most sound decoders that have motor wires. This means you only want to use the DZ125 for the motor car in the middle. For the cab cars you might want to buy the (less expensive) TL4 - this is a "function only" Digitrax decoder that supports 4 functions, but has no motor wires.

 

I don't care for the TL4, because it doesn't support auto-reversing of the headlights; I'd go with a TCS FL4 instead.

 

Well, you go and say that NOW after I've just bought a dozen TL4s ... Interesting point of view you have, but I want transponding in the lead cars.  Would I be better of throwing DN135s in the lead cars just to get the forward and reversing lights operating automatically???  I know this is off-topic ... but we're here now - may as well get the ticket punched!!!

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[CaptOblivious]

Thanks for the links David. I may go the Model Train Stuff route. Their Shinkansen 800 set is expensive though. I may just suck it up as it probably better to deal with a retailer instead of of Ebay seller in case there are issues.

 

Does anyone know if the DZ125 decoder works for the lights also or just the motor on the 500? How about the 800 series?

 

In both trains the motor car doesn't have any lights for the DZ125 to control because it's in the middle (unless you install interior lights in the cars, in which case the DZ125 could control those). A challenge with Japanese trains and DCC is that most of them need 3 decoders - 1 decoder for the motor car in the middle, and a decoder for each cab car (2).

 

The DZ125 has wires for a motor and 2 "functions". Each function is basically one LED (or group) that can be turned on and off. A cab car usually needs at least 2 functions - 1 for the forward (white) lights, and 1 for the reverse (red) lights. If you add interior lights that is a third function. Something to note however is that most regular decoders need to be wired to a motor to work correctly (they need the motors load for some operations). The same goes for most sound decoders that have motor wires. This means you only want to use the DZ125 for the motor car in the middle. For the cab cars you might want to buy the (less expensive) TL4 - this is a "function only" Digitrax decoder that supports 4 functions, but has no motor wires.

 

I don't care for the TL4, because it doesn't support auto-reversing of the headlights; I'd go with a TCS FL4 instead.

 

Well, you go and say that NOW after I've just bought a dozen TL4s ... Interesting point of view you have, but I want transponding in the lead cars.  Would I be better of throwing DN135s in the lead cars just to get the forward and reversing lights operating automatically???  I know this is off-topic ... but we're here now - may as well get the ticket punched!!!

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

It's a mixed bag. Where transponding is important, your hands are tied. The TL4 is a fine decoder, but I do find it boggling that there is no way to do automatically reversing head/marker lights with it (I contacted Digitrax support about this not once, but twice, to ensure the answer was correct). That said, perhaps you don't mind; manually setting the headlights and marker lights is more prototypically correct from an operations standpoint. Me: I prefer the convenience of automatic reversing lights. But I wouldn't bother with using a DN135 or its ilk for this purpose: It's both more expensive, and you have to solder a resistor between the motor leads to simulate the load of a motor for the decoder to operate correctly (otherwise it assumes there must be a short somewhere, and refuses to operate, a nice safety feature, but annoying in this context).

 

All that said, the Kato FL12 function decoder, being designed for Japanese cab cars, does offer both automatically reversing lights, and, being designed by Digitrax, transponding. It's also cheap!.  But it is something of a bear to use for wired installs because you have to solder the wires to the decoder yourself, and there's no clear labeling of which wire goes where (recall that it was designed to be a literal drop-in decoder for Kato's newer models).

 

Another option is to buy a set of TCS FL4s to control the lighting, and add the Digitrax TF4s for transponding, without connecting any of its function leads. This is a supported use of the TF4, but it has the disadvantage of being bulky (two decoders! Yikes!) and expensive.

 

That said, perhaps my earlier assessment was a bit knee-jerk: The TF4 is a fine decoder, so long as you are aware of that one odd limitation.

[David]

Another option is to buy a set of TCS FL4s to control the lighting, and add the Digitrax TF4s for transponding, without connecting any of its function leads. This is a supported use of the TF4, but it has the disadvantage of being bulky (two decoders! Yikes!) and expensive.

 

That said, perhaps my earlier assessment was a bit knee-jerk: The TF4 is a fine decoder, so long as you are aware of that one odd limitation.

 

Or if it's only for transponding, maybe the TF1 (about $2-3 cheaper I think) would work ? I'm wondering if these are actually a cheaper alternative to the FL11 as well?

 

The "more prototypical but not as convenient" is a great way of summing it up - with the exception of one car DMUs and locomotives (which are handled by a motor decoder anyway) I kind of like the more prototypical behavoir; my passenger train expectations (derived from TTC subway/LRT) are of a double track mainline, with the driver having to get out and walk to the other end of the train when he "turns around" at the end of the line. As a result the sight of a 10 car EMU reversing direction out of nowhere feels weird to me.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hi Martijn, are you happy with the way Tomix sets run?

 

Cheers

 

Spiff

 

Yes, very happy. Especially the newer ones run great, because they have power conducting couplers, and thus power pickup from all 16 cars. I do have some noisy Tomix shinkansen as well, but they're older sets.

 

Thanks for that Martijn.

 

Spiff

[Spaceman Spiff]

First off I want to thank everyone who has contributed to my questions. This a great forum.

 

Well I have to say I am thoroughly confused now in regards to decoders. btw doesn't take much to confuse me :).

 

I am getting the following sets:

 

Kato 800 Shinkansen Bullet Train Tsubame 6 Car 10-491   

 

TOMIX 92963 Shinkansen Bullet Train 0-7000 Hikari 6 Car

 

Kato 10-354 JR Shinkansen Bullet Train Series 100 6 car  (hopefully will be able to get seller to change my order to get this set also).

 

I know I will need decoders for the motors and the cabs for lighting. I suppose that these set only have one motor so I will need one digitrax motor decoder such as the DZ125 or similar.

 

Here is when the confusion kicks in :). To get the cab lighting to work correctly ie: lights switch automatically when switching from forward to reverse, which decoder should I get? The Kato's or so digitrax version?

 

Spiff

[CaptOblivious]

If you must have both automatically reversing lighting and Transponding, then your options are:

• Kato FL12
  
• Digitrax TL1 or Digitrax TF4 (TL1 = cheaper) plus one of:
  
  • TCS FL4 (the FL2 is too big!)
    
  • Uhlenbrock 73900
    
  • ESU LokPilot Fx micro
    
  • (Anyone know of any other good function decoder to list here? Lenz seems to have discontinued theirs.)
    

   

[David]

If you must have both automatically reversing lighting and Transponding, then your options are:

• Kato FL12
  
• Digitrax TL1 or Digitrax TF4 (TL1 = cheaper) plus one of:
  
  • TCS FL4 (the FL2 is too big!)
    
  • Uhlenbrock 73900
    
  • ESU LokPilot Fx micro
    
  • (Anyone know of any other good function decoder to list here? Lenz seems to have discontinued theirs.)
    

   

 

I can't think of any more suitable N scale function decoders, but it's also been mentioned you could use a motor decoder, with an appropriate resistor (what would be a nice ohm value for a Z scale decoder running on an N scale booster). Decoders would include the DZ123 or DZ125 (the second has more features), or if you want interior lights too, the DZ143 (4 functions). The downside are size and cost, though if you're going to put 2 decoders in there anyway you might break even. If you've got space for 2 small decoders the new DN135d might even be an option (and it's definitely cheaper then 2 decoders)

[The_Ghan]

OK ... so there are 3 options, in the order that I'm going to try:

 

1. DZ123.  Cost: $16 + resistor.  Labour: need to solder resistor between motor wires.  What resistor?

 

2. Kato FL12, if it fits.  Cost: $18.  Labour: need to solder wires and work out wiring diagram;

 

3. TL1 + FL4.  Cost: $14 + $17 = $31.  Labour: wiring two decoders in parallel.

 

Looks like I'll be picking up some DZ123s.  Meanwhile, I now have a dozen surplus TF4s !!!

 

Prices were checked at my usual haunts ... ModelTrainStuff and Hiawatha Hobbies.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Bernard]

Ghan - Where are you picking up the DZ123? I think it's been over a year since Digitraxs replaced it with the DZ125. I'm also asking because Digitrax has a very good return policy and I wonder if they will honor the older DZ123 model?

[KenS]

Bernard, I don't think they've discontinued the DZ123.  It's still listed on their main Mobile Decoders page. About the only feature difference (other than function outputs) is the lack of BEMF, but those two let them position it as a low-cost ($20 MSRP) model, compared to the DZ125 ($25 MSRP).

 

The DZ125 is, on paper, more accepting of overpowered boosters, as it's rated to 20V, where the DZ123 is rated to 18V. But I suspect in practice that a non-adjustable booster is either in the 14-16V "normal" range, or above 20V (as a few systems reportedly have been). I've been thinking of using the DZ123 on motor cars of some of my non-"DCC Friendly" trains when I get around to converting them. Although I may decide I want BEMF enough to pay the extra $5.

 

It may be hard to find since stores probably make less profit on it, but MB Klein has them in stock.

[Bernard]

Ken - Thanks for the MB Klein info. I actually prefer the DZ123 over the DZ125. Time to pull out the cc and watch it melt.   

[Spaceman Spiff]

If you must have both automatically reversing lighting and Transponding, then your options are:

• Kato FL12
  
• Digitrax TL1 or Digitrax TF4 (TL1 = cheaper) plus one of:
  
  • TCS FL4 (the FL2 is too big!)
    
  • Uhlenbrock 73900
    
  • ESU LokPilot Fx micro
    
  • (Anyone know of any other good function decoder to list here? Lenz seems to have discontinued theirs.)
    

   

 

 

Dumb question of the day,,,,

 

What is transponding?

 

 

Spiff

[KenS]

Dumb question of the day,,,,

 

What is transponding?

 

Digitrax's solution for reading info from decoders on a train.  DCC was originally one-way (station to decoder). The NMRA eventually standardized a different system (RailCom) for that, but every Digitrax decoder (including the Kato ones) uses transponding.

 

It's not all that useful, as you need a fancy kind of occupancy detector to use it (Digitrax's BDL series equipped with RX4 detectors), which is pretty expensive.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks Kens for answering my question.

 

So from what I gather, I can use the DZ123 or DZ125 for the motor car decoders.  I am not really talented when it comes to soldering so I will be asking some one to help me out with so something easy and straight forward is preferred for the cab lighting. I would like the light to switch when changing directions. With that being the case which is the easiest way of doing it? If I don't put decoders in the cabs, what do the cab lights do on a DCC layout. Do both headlights and tail lights illuminate?

 

Spiff

[The_Ghan]

OK ... so there are 3 options, in the order that I'm going to try:

 

1. DZ123.  Cost: $16 + resistor.  Labour: need to solder resistor between motor wires.  What resistor?

 

2. Kato FL12, if it fits.  Cost: $18.  Labour: need to solder wires and work out wiring diagram;

 

3. TL1 + FL4.  Cost: $14 + $17 = $31.  Labour: wiring two decoders in parallel.

 

Looks like I'll be picking up some DZ123s.  Meanwhile, I now have a dozen surplus TF4s !!!

 

Prices were checked at my usual haunts ... ModelTrainStuff and Hiawatha Hobbies.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

To answer my own question re: resistor - a 120 Ohm resistor should be soldered between the motor wires in lieu of an actual motor when using a DZ123 or DZ125 to control the lights.  However, if you also plan to control interior lighting at some stage, a 2 function decoder in the cab car won't cut it ... better to go for the DN135D - which has a 3rd function.  The DN135D is available for around the same price from the guys I mentioned above.  John's Hobbies are also quite competitive with their decoder pricing.

 

To answer Spaceman re: Transponding: in layman's terms, transponding lets you know what train is physically where on your layout.  It is a step up from occupancy detection, which indicates a section of track is occupied by "something".  It is proprietory to Digitrax and Kato decoders.  Very handy if you want to use your PC or notebook to control your trains.

 

To answer Spaceman re: controlling lighting is cab cars ... that's what my post in quotes above was about !!!

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the reply The_Ghan.

 

Can I get 120 Ohm resistor anywhere? Do the decoder install instructions tell you on which wires to solder the resistor?

 

Spiff

[The_Ghan]

Hey Spiff,

 

Just hold out a day or so ... I'm waiting for an email back from Digitrax to confirm the wattage.  ATM I'm guessing a 1W 120 Ohm resistor would do the trick ... but I'll post back here when I hear.  Just jump onto eBay mate, you'll find you can pick up around 50 for $5.  But wait until I post again ... By the way, you simply solder it between the two motor wires on the decoder - instead of connecting the decoder to a motor.  You will need to do that BEFORE you program the decoder.

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[Spaceman Spiff]

Standing by for further. 

 

Thanks

 

Spiff