KATO 10-510 Shinkansen 500 is there two different versions?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Hi, I am new to Japanese railroading and thinking about picking up Shinkansen 500 train as my first foray into Japanese railroading. Is there two different versions of the set ie: loco in the front or power supplied by a coach car? Is this correct? If so is there any difference between versions ie: newer, easier for decoders installs, better running?

 

Thanks

 

Spiff

[CaptOblivious]

It is very rare for a bullet train model to have the motor in one of the cab cars (one of the end-most cars). (Exceptions: Tomix E4 and 400-series bullet trains). There are others here who have this model who can give a little more detail than I can, though! :D Welcome to the board!

[KenS]

There were two different releases of the Nozmi 500 Series by Kato, the 10-510/511/512 set, which has a four-car basic set including the motor car (which is in one of the coaches, not the cab car) and the earlier 10-382/383/384, which had a seven-car basic set and apparently you needed to buy multiple 10-384 sets to make a full 16-car train, something you can do now with the three 10-51x sets.

 

I don't know much about the older model (it's been out of production for a long time; the 10-510 came out in 2006). I have the newer model.

 

Kato also offers the model in a 10-003 starter set. Since this was released in 2006 also, I'd presume it's the same four cars as in the 10-510 set (they look the same in the photos on Hobby Search's website). The booklet that came with my 10-510 also listed the 10-003 as being the same four cars, which would seem to confirm it.

 

It's possible there was some change between the older model and the newer one beyond Kato's recent trend to repackage larger sets into a smaller starter set and multiple expansions. But both are described the same way in multiple places, and the new one is not described as having a flywheel (although I've never taken mine apart to see if it does, and sometimes they don't mention one when it's there), nor is it "DCC Friendly" (equipped with a place to put Kato's EM13/FL11 decoders), and those are the usual things added in a re-tooled model.

 

So I think they're the same model, but I've never compared the two.

 

I haven't tried installing a decoder, but Inobu has described his install.

 

Update: oops, pasted the wrong URL for Inobu's posting. Fixed.

[ShinCanadaSen]

Haha KenS beat me to the answer while I was looking for my kato catalogues. I have the 10-003 street kit one and it appears to be identical to the four car 10-510 release. I have just compared my 4 cars to the pictures in the Kato catalogue an they appear identical in appearance. There is no real way from pictures to tell if they changed anything internally, although I don't think there is any difference. The catalogue lists 13 different numbers I believe to be the stock numbers for each type of car ( there are doubles of some to make up the full 16 cars). If anyone is interested I could do a better comparison and advise exactly which cars came with my  starter set.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the replies.

 

Is it a decent running train overall? Any known issues?

 

Cheers

 

Spiff

[nik_n_dad]

Nik has had the 7-car set for a few years.  I recently purchased the 4-car set to try to do the DCC install (I really didn't want to experiment with the wire-in install on Nik's train).  They look identical to me.  They are reasonably good runners, and look very nice.  It looks fast just sitting there... always attracts attention.  (Regarding the DCC install, the motorcar was relatively "easy".  I never could get the decoders to fit into the cab cars, so unfortunately it's back in my "to get back to someday pile"

[KenS]

Like any of the Shinkansen it can have problems on tighter-radius viaduct track or with a curve leading directly into a bridge due to the length of the cars overhanging on curves and hitting the edge.  Other than that, I've never had any problems with mine. It's one of my favorites.

[The_Ghan]

I once asked a similar question of the guys at Hobby Search regarding the Kato Thunderbird 10-555 and 10-345.  The told me that the models up to the late 400s had a 3 pole motors while some of the late 400s and nearly all 500s had 5 pole motors.  Thus, the 10-345 had the older motor and the 10-555 has a 5 pole motor.  I would imagine it is the same with the Nozomi 500.  If you're not sure, just ask the guys at Hobby Search, like I did.

 

Cheers,

 

The_Ghan

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the replies. Any difference in quality between Kato or Tomix sets for the 500 series?

 

 

Now I am on the hunt for a reasonably price set    

 

Spiff

[KenS]

The told me that the models up to the late 400s had a 3 pole motors while some of the late 400s and nearly all 500s had 5 pole motors. 

 

That's interesting. I'd never paid much attention to the type of motor used, and perhaps I should have. I'd seen that as a concern for 1970s-era models that needed repowering to work correctly, and my models always seemed to work well enough.

 

A bit of quick googling seems to show that Kato advertises many of their North American models as having "5-pole skew-wound motors with dual flywheels" (and I found one similar reference to a Kato TGV), but even on recent Japanese-prototype models on their Japanese website, all they say is "flywheel power unit". I wonder if slow-running is less of an issue in the Japanese market, or if the modeling community there associates flywheels with the behavior of improved motor designs, and isn't as focused on the motor type.

 

I'd also thought 3-pole motors were a fairly old technology for model trains at this point, and some of the 300-series models are less than a decade old, so it's a bit surprising they would have made the transition that recently.

 

Does anyone know what the other manufacturers use?

 

And to get back to the original question, I have no idea how the Tomix Series 500 compares.  I tend to avoid their trains, as they have a reputation for being problematic to convert to DCC, but I don't have any personal experience to back that up.  Some of their older trains used a spring rather than a drive shaft, which other posters here have reported as being a cause of problems. But newer models seem to have improved in this area.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I am relatively new to model railroading but for my North American loco's Kato always run trouble free so I will stay with Kato. The problem I have now is do I get the 16 car 500 set or skimp abit and get a smaller 500 set and pick up a 800 set at the same time.

 

Why couldn't I have picked a cheaper hobby like boozing and gambling 

 

Spiff

[KenS]

That's a hard choice (the "which train" choice, not the "which hobby" choice  ).  I think you'll probably enjoy two short trains more.  The only risk is that eventually you'll want the longer train, and the expansion will be unavailable. But that's less of a risk with Kato, and particularly with the 500 Series which appears to be extremely popular. 

 

But Japanese model train manufacturers do let things go out-of-stock fairly often (it has to do with the high cost of maintaining inventory; mostly they seem to produce just enough to meet stock orders, and let the hobby stores maintain inventory between production runs, although that's not 100% true). When I wanted to add the 8-car expansion to my Series 500 it was out of production, and I had to wait about a year for it to become available again. With some less-popular models it can be several years between production runs. And some manufacturers (Micro Ace and Modemo in particular) have a reputation for "never" (well, almost never) re-running old models.

 

I started with a "kitchen table" layout that could only hold six-car trains in its two stations, so that's what I bought (exclusively Kato back then). When I started work on the new layout, which can hold up to 16-car trains in the longer station, I began building up those shorter trains.  And there's only one I couldn't expand, as they re-issued the model in a different arrangement, so the two-car set I'm missing would now require me to buy nearly the full set.  Otherwise, I was able to fill in all the gaps.

[The_Ghan]

Thanks for the replies. Any difference in quality between Kato or Tomix sets for the 500 series?

 

 

Now I am on the hunt for a reasonably price set    

 

Spiff

 

Spiff,

 

I bought my Kato 10-510/1/2 16 car Nozomi 500 set from Hit-Japan on eBay.  It was just under $300 US.  He was $5 cheaper than Japan-Plaza, whom I just can't find on eBay today.  Ace_Of_Bicycle has the Tomix 92968 full 16 car Nozomi 500 for too much money.  Despite not having the train myself, the Tomix model is a better representation of the train as it has better diaphrams.  I'm very happy with the Kato though.

 

Hope that helps

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

[clem24]

Thanks for the replies. Any difference in quality between Kato or Tomix sets for the 500 series?

 

 

Now I am on the hunt for a reasonably price set    

 

Spiff

 

Spiff,

 

I bought my Kato 10-510/1/2 16 car Nozomi 500 set from Hit-Japan on eBay.  It was just under $300 US.  He was $5 cheaper than Japan-Plaza, whom I just can't find on eBay today.  Ace_Of_Bicycle has the Tomix 92968 full 16 car Nozomi 500 for too much money.  Despite not having the train myself, the Tomix model is a better representation of the train as it has better diaphrams.  I'm very happy with the Kato though.

 

Hope that helps

 

Cheers

 

The_Ghan

 

Plus the fact that Tomix models that correct cars for a prototypical 16 car formation... Not sure if Kato corrected it with their new release, but the old release definitely did not make a truly prototypical consist.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I was going to buy the 16 car set today but of course the sets that were available were sold. You snooze you lose. Doh

 

 

Spiff

[David]

I was going to buy the 16 car set today but of course the sets that were available were sold. You snooze you lose. Doh

 

The expensive limited edition good bye set is still available....

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10116468

[Spaceman Spiff]

The sets I was looking at were Kato going for $300ish. I don't know if I want to drop $400 for a set.

 

Sighhhhhh

 

Spiff

[David]

You can also order it from the US, but it will cost more (though if you live in the US or Canada you'll save $20 or more in shipping)

 

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/KATO-N-10510-Series-500-Shinkansen-Nozomi-4-car-p/kat-10510.htm

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/KATO-N-10511-Series-500-Shinkansen-Nozomi-4-car-p/kat-10511.htm

http://www.modeltrainstuff.com/KATO-N-10512-Series-500-Shinkansen-Nozomi-8-car-p/kat-10512.htm

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks for the links David. I may go the Model Train Stuff route. Their Shinkansen 800 set is expensive though. I may just suck it up as it probably better to deal with a retailer instead of of Ebay seller in case there are issues.

 

Does anyone know if the DZ125 decoder works for the lights also or just the motor on the 500? How about the 800 series?

 

Spiff

[clem24]

Personally, I think the Sayonara set is quite a nice set. Here are the great things about this particular Tomix set:

 

1.) 2 power cars (vs. only 1 in Kato)

2.) Flywheel drive (non-flywheel in Kato)

3.) 16 car electrical pick up - combined with 2 power cars, this set will NEVER stall or flicker

4.) Prototypically correct cars

5.) Includes the window glazings on the windows and doors at the car ends (unlike the original release which must be retrofitted)

 

However, for me, I can't justify buying it (I have the original release). If I didn't have a 500 series set, *this* would be the one to get. The first 3 points make this set worth it's premium over the Kato version (plus #4 for me). If this set somehow had special markings like the Sayonara 0 or 100 set, I'd totally be all over it, but as it is, not worth it to me. But I guess the low US dollar is making this set quite expensive to buy.

[David]

Thanks for the links David. I may go the Model Train Stuff route. Their Shinkansen 800 set is expensive though. I may just suck it up as it probably better to deal with a retailer instead of of Ebay seller in case there are issues.

 

Does anyone know if the DZ125 decoder works for the lights also or just the motor on the 500? How about the 800 series?

 

In both trains the motor car doesn't have any lights for the DZ125 to control because it's in the middle (unless you install interior lights in the cars, in which case the DZ125 could control those). A challenge with Japanese trains and DCC is that most of them need 3 decoders - 1 decoder for the motor car in the middle, and a decoder for each cab car (2).

 

The DZ125 has wires for a motor and 2 "functions". Each function is basically one LED (or group) that can be turned on and off. A cab car usually needs at least 2 functions - 1 for the forward (white) lights, and 1 for the reverse (red) lights. If you add interior lights that is a third function. Something to note however is that most regular decoders need to be wired to a motor to work correctly (they need the motors load for some operations). The same goes for most sound decoders that have motor wires. This means you only want to use the DZ125 for the motor car in the middle. For the cab cars you might want to buy the (less expensive) TL4 - this is a "function only" Digitrax decoder that supports 4 functions, but has no motor wires.

[CaptOblivious]

Thanks for the links David. I may go the Model Train Stuff route. Their Shinkansen 800 set is expensive though. I may just suck it up as it probably better to deal with a retailer instead of of Ebay seller in case there are issues.

 

Does anyone know if the DZ125 decoder works for the lights also or just the motor on the 500? How about the 800 series?

 

In both trains the motor car doesn't have any lights for the DZ125 to control because it's in the middle (unless you install interior lights in the cars, in which case the DZ125 could control those). A challenge with Japanese trains and DCC is that most of them need 3 decoders - 1 decoder for the motor car in the middle, and a decoder for each cab car (2).

 

The DZ125 has wires for a motor and 2 "functions". Each function is basically one LED (or group) that can be turned on and off. A cab car usually needs at least 2 functions - 1 for the forward (white) lights, and 1 for the reverse (red) lights. If you add interior lights that is a third function. Something to note however is that most regular decoders need to be wired to a motor to work correctly (they need the motors load for some operations). The same goes for most sound decoders that have motor wires. This means you only want to use the DZ125 for the motor car in the middle. For the cab cars you might want to buy the (less expensive) TL4 - this is a "function only" Digitrax decoder that supports 4 functions, but has no motor wires.

 

I don't care for the TL4, because it doesn't support auto-reversing of the headlights; I'd go with a TCS FL4 instead.

[bill937ca]

 

But Japanese model train manufacturers do let things go out-of-stock fairly often (it has to do with the high cost of maintaining inventory; mostly they seem to produce just enough to meet stock orders, and let the hobby stores maintain inventory between production runs, although that's not 100% true). When I wanted to add the 8-car expansion to my Series 500 it was out of production, and I had to wait about a year for it to become available again. With some less-popular models it can be several years between production runs. And some manufacturers (Micro Ace and Modemo in particular) have a reputation for "never" (well, almost never) re-running old models.

 

 

I don't where you get the idea Modemo does not re-run models.  The 600V Meitetsu (Nagoya Railway) 510/520 cars have been a core of Modemo business since 2000.  That's a pretty good run record and it doesn't take into account virtually every car/train on the Enoden.

 

NT Car M or T Release Date Price Comments

 

NT8 510 M 5/2000 6,510 red and white

NT9 510 T 5/2000 3,045 red and white

NT12 510 M 3/2001 6,510 solid red

NT13 510 T 3/2001 3,045 solid red

NT20 520 M 11/2002 6,510 red and white

NT21 520 T 11/2002 3,045 red and white

NT27 520 M 4/2003 6,510 solid red

NT29 520 T 4/2003 3,045 solid red

NT46 510 M/T 4/2005 9,240 red and white, two set

NT58 750 M 11/2006 6,510 solid red

NT59 750 T 11/2006 3,045 solid red

NT62 510/520 M/T 1/2007 9,450 red and white, two set

NT78 750 M 1/2008 6,510 solid red, snowplow

NT103 510 M/T/T 11/2009 13,440 red and white, three set

NT119 510/520 M/T 12/2010 9,800 solid red

[Spaceman Spiff]

Thanks again for the replies,

 

clem24: I can't seem to find an english translation on the Tomix Sayonara set stating it has two power units. Do you have a link stating that?

 

CaptOblivious: What do you mean by auto reversing with regards to decoders?

 

cheers

[KenS]

I don't where you get the idea Modemo does not re-run models.  

 

I believe I got it from comments others had made on this site. They have re-run a few models in the past year I've been watching them, although I'd still say they they tend to have very little of their line available at any given time, compared to Kato or Tomix.