Automated computer control chapter 3 - Advanced blocks

[Martijn Meerts]

No problem. If you have any questions, just ask.

 

I was supposed to write more chapters on this, but I guess I got sidetracked 🙂

 

[gavino200]

Fantastic thread. Thanks Martijn. I'm thinking of setting up the tracks on my new layout with isolated joiners for later addition of block detection. 

[cteno4]

It’s a smart thing to do as you can just run them all into a terminal block to do regular point power routing until you want to get fancier for automation, election, or just fancier block running.

 

jeff

[Martijn Meerts]

It definitely makes things easier later on when you build the layout with blocks / computer control in mind. I've retrofitted a couple of 'normal' layouts to be computer controlled, and it can be a bit of a mess 🙂

 

[chadbag]

15 hours ago, cteno4 said:

It’s a smart thing to do as you can just run them all into a terminal block to do regular point power routing until you want to get fancier for automation, election, or just fancier block running.

 

jeff

 

Or just buy one or two of the block detectors from Digikeijs now (or other affordable ones -- $100 can get you 32 zones) and just wire it up, even if you don't do anything with it at the moment 🙂

 

[Martijn Meerts]

Yep, you can actually just add detection modules right from the start. I don't know much about Digikeijs, but it looks like good quality stuff. When I started working with the ECoS (which can also do occupancy detection using S88), the best option was LDT. More expensive than the Digikeijs modules, but they have been proven quite well considering Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg runs on mostly LDT electronics.

 

If I were to start now though, I might get the Digikeijs S88 modules. In fact, I'm planning on getting something like the LDT HSI-88, which allows me to separate controlling trains and accessories from receiving feedback, as wel as have multiple chains of detection modules. It's a bit more flexible, more reliable, and I could use LDT's S88 modules for the yard and helix on 1 detection chain, and the use Digikeijs S88 modules for the other 2 chains.

 

[gavino200]

2 hours ago, chadbag said:

 

Or just buy one or two of the block detectors from Digikeijs now (or other affordable ones -- $100 can get you 32 zones) and just wire it up, even if you don't do anything with it at the moment 🙂

 

 

Can you expand on that, Chad? How does it work? How is it wired? Does it work with other systems? Pros, cons, etc. 

[chadbag]

3 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

Can you expand on that, Chad? How does it work? How is it wired? Does it work with other systems? Pros, cons, etc. 

 

Digikeijs makes several different detection block systems depending on whether you want/need RailCom etc.  They all support LocoNet so should work with any LocoNet compatible command center/booster.  Other companies make similar systems and any of them should work.
 

 When you put the isolating joiners in and wire each block to power, you connect those power wires to the detection system module instead of the command center/boosters, which is/are  connected to your command station.  So once you decide you want to actually use detection, it is already wired up! (See manuals for exmaple wiring).

 

If the Digikeijs interest you here is the US distributors page showing the various modules (there are really two of interest the 4088-LN and the 5088 if you want RailCom reporting -- or the 4088-OPTO if you are doing 3 wire with the Digikeijs command station or you want to hook up other sensors to it as well -- the manual (under support on the website) for the 4088 shows installations using the -OPTO version with hall effect, reed, and other sensors -- I've not done any of that).  https://www.digikeijs.us/digital-model-railway-accessories/model-railway-feedback-modules/loconet-feedback.html

 

I've only used the 5088 myself and I have the Digikeijs command station but supposedly it should work with any command station -- I've not done it (yet) hwoever.  (As part of my software dev efforts I will be eventually getting other command stations to test with and will test these sorts of combos)

 

Upi can also do what Jeff said which is just connect all the wires to a distribution block and later replace that with the detection modules.  I just find it easier to wire them modules in up front since I know I will eventually want them anyway.  

 

EDIT:  I should add that I have their 32 block "combo" set, normal 2 wire non OPTO version available.  I'll post it again in the classified FS area of the forum.  I bought it but then realized I'd like to use RailCom so never used it.

Edited December 2, 2020 by chadbag

[Madsing]

Just to confirm chadbag's post. I am also using Digikeijs DR4088 feedback modules (four of them) and they work very well with my Z21 command station and the Rocrail software.

In addition: Martijn's post (this post) about blocks is excellent. I recommend everyone interested in layout automation to read it and follow these recommendations. I did that a few years back when I started my layout and it proved really useful!

[Martijn Meerts]

Good to hear these old posts have been useful 🙂

 

[williamv]

Thank you! Very clearly written and incredibly helpful!

[Martijn Meerts]

It's a bit old, but most of the info is still valid. Although programs, decoders and detectors etc. have improved since I wrote it it, so it's probably a good idea to set up a simple tests track and experiment a bit.

 

[Melandir]

I have been advised to also use Arduino for that task, I know a fellow modeller that use this one

 

https://www.arcomora.com/

[E231-500]

Hi all. I've been having a good read through this thread, which has been a help with planning my station on my layout. I've attached a rough diagram of what I have come up with. I would love any thoughts or feedback.

 

It will be 3 platforms and a through track in each direction. I am planning for eventual automation including station stops.

[inobu]

2 hours ago, E231-500 said:

Hi all. I've been having a good read through this thread, which has been a help with planning my station on my layout. I've attached a rough diagram of what I have come up with. I would love any thoughts or feedback.

 

It will be 3 platforms and a through track in each direction. I am planning for eventual automation including station stops.

1. You need to identify the hardware you are going to use.
2. Identify the software that is going to drive the hardware.
3. You need to document what operations you want to automate. (Operations are the activities the train will be performing).
4. Map out your block occupancy and stopping sensors to support the operation map.
5. Test the configuration.
6. Create a build plan.
7. Deploy the build plan.

Inobu

 

[E231-500]

21 hours ago, inobu said:

1. You need to identify the hardware you are going to use.
2. Identify the software that is going to drive the hardware.
3. You need to document what operations you want to automate. (Operations are the activities the train will be performing).
4. Map out your block occupancy and stopping sensors to support the operation map.
5. Test the configuration.
6. Create a build plan.
7. Deploy the build plan.

Inobu

 

1) I am using Digitrax gear. Currently have the Zephyr Express DCS52 as my command station. I'm using DS64's for turnouts and BDL168's for block detection.

 

2) For software I am currently using JMRI but have been looking at paid software too like iTrain.

 

3) As for auto operation, it will mainly be for running one train at a time in each direction and occasionally alternate between through running or station stop. That will allow me to also alternate what rollingstock is on the mainline. For running in and out of the yard, I am happy to do that manually.

 

4) that diagram was how I plan to do the blocks for the station. As for the mainline I will plan out the blocks to (where possible) match the full length of the trains. At the moment the largest will be 11 car trains (mainly E231-500's).

 

5) I am currently installing and testing the DS64's and one BDL168 so I can learn how to get them wired up correctly and also to communicate with JMRI.

 

6 & 7) Not quite that far along just yet.

[inobu]

3 hours ago, E231-500 said:

1) I am using Digitrax gear. Currently have the Zephyr Express DCS52 as my command station. I'm using DS64's for turnouts and BDL168's for block detection.

 

2) For software I am currently using JMRI but have been looking at paid software too like iTrain.

 

3) As for auto operation, it will mainly be for running one train at a time in each direction and occasionally alternate between through running or station stop. That will allow me to also alternate what rollingstock is on the mainline. For running in and out of the yard, I am happy to do that manually.

 

4) that diagram was how I plan to do the blocks for the station. As for the mainline I will plan out the blocks to (where possible) match the full length of the trains. At the moment the largest will be 11 car trains (mainly E231-500's).

 

5) I am currently installing and testing the DS64's and one BDL168 so I can learn how to get them wired up correctly and also to communicate with JMRI.

 

6 & 7) Not quite that far along just yet.

You have a plan which is key. Go to step 2 and decide which program you are going to use. The one issue you will have is adjusting your eyes to

the other programs. Rocrail and iTrain's interface has a different look and feel. Its like driving a Lexus and BMW. They drive alike but feel so different. Remember 

the controls are there it may be in a different location. From there just keep going through the plan.

 

Save yourself a headache and stick with the Digitrax product line. When you start mixing product lines you end up having to buy other pieces to fit the other piece

you just got.

 

You are good to go.

 

Inobu

 

[Chester]

New to the group.  I'm a bit slow so bear with me.  In plan 1 diagram there is a orange section before the blue braking block that ends with the stopping block, block 4.  I'm confused as to what this first orange section is and does.  It's located in block 3.  In my mind I'm thinking if block 4 has a sensor, then can't a train entering that block immediately start decelerating to eventually stop at the stop section.  What is the purpose of the section in block 3?

[Chester]

Also, I have Digitrax BD4N.  How do I get it to register on Loconet?  Do I need a third device?

[Martijn Meerts]

The orange sections are the stop sections. This is where the train will stop. They're not really necessary since most software these days can calculate where the trains should stop, but if you want to make sure the trains always stop right in front of a signal for example, stop sections are still useful. Also, stop sections add a bit of security in case a train shoots past the blue braking section. Once it reaches the orange stop section, it'll always be stopped.

 

As for Digitrax and Loconet, I have no experience with either, so I can't help you there.

[inobu]

10 hours ago, Chester said:

Also, I have Digitrax BD4N.  How do I get it to register on Loconet?  Do I need a third device?

The DS64, DS74 or SE8C can be used to relay occupancy states over loconet.

 

Inobu 

[Chester]

Thanks guys, great info.

[Aleks]

On 12/1/2020 at 11:58 AM, Martijn Meerts said:

Yep, you can actually just add detection modules right from the start. I don't know much about Digikeijs, but it looks like good quality stuff. When I started working with the ECoS (which can also do occupancy detection using S88), the best option was LDT. More expensive than the Digikeijs modules, but they have been proven quite well considering Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg runs on mostly LDT electronics.

 

If I were to start now though, I might get the Digikeijs S88 modules. In fact, I'm planning on getting something like the LDT HSI-88, which allows me to separate controlling trains and accessories from receiving feedback, as wel as have multiple chains of detection modules. It's a bit more flexible, more reliable, and I could use LDT's S88 modules for the yard and helix on 1 detection chain, and the use Digikeijs S88 modules for the other 2 chains.

 

 

@Martijn MeertsI also use ECoS and for now have one ECoS Detector. I will for sure need more detection modules. Would LDT work with ECoS station? What is the difference between HSI-88 and RM-88-N-G? And does opto isolated version make sense (RM-88-N-O-G)? Not sure what "opto isolated" means.

 

Many thanks, excellent post!

[Martijn Meerts]

2 hours ago, Aleks said:

 

@Martijn MeertsI also use ECoS and for now have one ECoS Detector. I will for sure need more detection modules. Would LDT work with ECoS station? What is the difference between HSI-88 and RM-88-N-G? And does opto isolated version make sense (RM-88-N-O-G)? Not sure what "opto isolated" means.

 

Many thanks, excellent post!

 

ECoS works with LDT occupancy detectors yes, but there are some things to keep in mind.

 

• The ECoS Detectors use the ECoS Link bus, rather than the S88 bus. So you can't daisy chain ECoS Detectors with LDT's occupancy detectors. Also, I'm not sure if the ECoS can handle both ECoS Detectors and the S88 bus occupancy detectors at the same time.
• You'll likely want the RM-GB-8-N version rather than the RM-88-N. The RM-GB-8-N has the occupancy detection built in, which turns it into a traditional occupancy detection module. I'm sure the RM-88-N can be made to work as well, but I've noticed that combining the RM-88-N (or similar from other brands) with the RM-GB-8-N didn't work for me at least.
• The opto isolated version I don't think is really necessary. It helps with interference but I've not had any interference at all on the RM-GB-8-N's that I use, and I have something like 13 or 14 of them now.
• HSI-88 is an interface for computer control. This allows you to let the occupancy detection go through the HSI-88 to the PC rather then through the ECoS. The advantage is that it offloads a lot of processing power from the ECoS to the HSI-88. This is really only needed for larger layouts

 

Also, quality and reliability wise, LDT is good stuff. The large "Miniatur Wunderland" layout in Hamburg for example uses a lot of LDT devices.

 

 

 

 

[Aleks]

@Martijn Meerts Thank you very much! You reminded me I was actually asking LDT people about a year ago about the difference between RM-GB-8-N and RM-88-N... which I think was the reason I went for ECoSDetector then as it was a little more economical (ECoSDetector can do 16 blocks). Of course I only can connect three of them and then need an ECoSLink to add more... and I will need more than 3... Yes will need to see if I can use both s88 and ECoSDetector together...

 

If I use iTrain, is HSI-88 helpful?