Bandai B-Train Shorty

[kvp]

A possible solution could be to attach the skirts to the bogies which would allow the whole bogie/skirt/coupler assembly to move together. This was used by several older non shorty N scale locomotives in the past. This could work with the motor units too.

[locidm]

Last night, I finally assembled the Enoden Type 305 B-train that I got from Japan back in September. Question, I notice that neither of the two b-train sets that I have (E233 and this) run very well. They seem to get stuck at the points easily. Do you guys have the same problems with b-trains? 

 

I used Bandai's stuff for both the power unit and T cars. Is it an issue with weight distribution or just the wheels from Bandai power unit/t-cars being easy to get stuck in points because of high tolerances?

[nickhp]

You must add weight. I also found with bandai motor chassis that they need a bit of running in before reaching best performance. Run a few minutes each session to smooth out. Honestly, if you want smooth running, go the Kato route.

Edited December 8, 2016 by nickhp

[EF57]

so are we all passively accepting being forced (by bandai) to use the bandai two-truck underframes instead of the individual snap-in kato trucks? as was pointed out at the start of this thread, the kato trucks roll much better-- at least twice as well. my bandai power units easily pull 8-10 cars on the flat with no weights added, but only about 5 bandai-wheeled cars. Since Kato doesn't seem to intend to produce replacement SHG frames (bandai calls the new frames SG), why doesn't an entrepreneurial soul with a laser printer do this for us? of course, the plastic would have to be somewhat flexible .... a future with only Bandai trucks is too depressing to contemplate.

[locidm]

Thanks for bringing this up. I was wondering how one could use the Kato trucks if it doesn't come with a frame. Was going to investigate whether it's possible to use the frame that comes with the Bandai kits and snip and drill to accommodate Kato trucks, but that seems like a lot of work that may not translate to success.

[cteno4]

I'll look when in return from my trip, but my memory from looking at the new under frames is it was a pretty easy conversion to use Kato trucks. Just some nipping, filing and drilling for a truck pin screw.

 

Jeff

[kvp]

Does anyone have a photo of the new frames? I seem to have two types of old ones even for recently purchased b trains.

 

If the raised rings around the pin holes are missing, then they also have to be fabricated as the trucks are rotating on them.

 

On the other hand, buying the bandai truck packs, just for the frames is also an option. Then maybe the kato trucks could be added by removing the bandai ones.

[cteno4]

I think you are right and I was just thinking of using a nylon washer. I almost positive I have one.

 

Jeff

[nickhp]

There are probably copyright issues to what was suggested, I imagine that is the biggest hurdle.

 

A solution is to buy a batch of older models cheaply to scavenge the chassis'.

 

I would think you could make chassis' from styrene sheet and strips?

 

I don't know if Bandai is losing interest in the B Train line, they are announcing items less frequently and doing more reruns than new items which is not good.

[kvp]

I think they are making more prototypical sets with longer consists. Most of their higer grade special sets are like this and it takes more time and resources. Also most reruns are older trains (blue trains, 10x, 11x series, etc.) that there is a market for, unlike many newer sets nobody knows of. I expect a full rerun of all locos for the 4 axle chassis. This will take some time though.

[nickhp]

They have always allowed for longer consists, if you look at the instructions you will see that. That is also why you will often see them say how many packs you need to model a prototype consist (i.e. Snow rabbit and thunderbird, e5, e3's, etc.).

[kvp]

While allowing many things, the old packing strategy of one cab car and one middle car favored 4 car sets. This is why the 4 axle motors were optimized for moving 3 trailers and old bogie packs had 6 bogies, so one motor and one trailer pack gave you a 4 car set. This was thrown out the window when Bandai started selling 3 car packs.

 

Imho their best trailer bogies were the ones with the metal axle tip pickups. These roll like any Tomix axle tip pickup bogie. (they are metal on metal journal bearing)

[cteno4]

Yes those pickup bogies were nice! I've hoarded my few packs to pick which train I'll use them on!

 

Jeff

[EF57]

it's only the side-hooks that would be difficult to fabricate from styrene sheet.

Edited February 15, 2017 by EF57

[EF57]

dear nickhp, your repeatedly expressed malaise or discontented pessimism is probably due to your very long experience; you've done it all and, as is known, those kicks just keep getting harder to find. i understand that, but take it from me that for a beginner, the offerings are fantastic, varied, beautiful, intoxicating. what colors! the perfection of the fit and the clicks! and despite all the videos, they can cruise slowly, dpendably and evenly (bandai power units). did i mention super-cheap? as already suggested above, negative vibes are counterproductive for our community.

 

up to now i have been buying only full-size trains which have a shorty equivalent (hankyu, keihan, rapi:t, jnr express ltd.), but i have decided to forget the full-size stuff completely. It's just too big, fills up my layout. I take my stand-- with the shorties. I like having at least 8-car trains, even of trams, snaking around the superelevated s-curves. just one motor per train (i have no grades). thus my concern about being limited to the plainly inferior T-kai underframe-trucks. can't bandai make them better? they need needlepoint bearings, not that tinplate-type friction-axle.

[EF57]

the shorties may be short, but they still have the same number of wheels! for me whatever the scale, it's always been about metal wheels on metal rails, especially on switches and crossings. and all of that is perfectly preserved by the shorties; indeed, you get more wheels per foot by far!

[kvp]

If the bandai motors are so cheap, then why is it a problem to add 1 for every 4 cars? If someone likes the Kato bogies so much, then why is it a problem to buy the Bandai frames and run them with Kato bogies? They are two different companies and Bandai is just trying to sell their own products, while making them cheaper for those people who don't run them.

 

Personally i would prefer if btrain shells would be available without all the extra stuff like the magnet couplers, but little kids who run them on the floor prefer them to rapidos... Imho they are as much of a target market than modellers. And having stronger frames for them that are less likely to loose a fixed bogie is actually better for them. (and we can still buy frames and bogies if we want to)

[nickhp]

Side hooks wouldn't be too difficult to do in styrene, bodies of b trains have enough "give" in them that tabs wouldn't necessarily have to be flexible.  I would suggest stacking strip styrene width ways across the chassis for these.

 

dear nickhp, your repeatedly expressed malaise or discontented pessimism is probably due to your very long experience; you've done it all and, as is known, those kicks just keep getting harder to find. i understand that, but take it from me that for a beginner, the offerings are fantastic, varied, beautiful, intoxicating. what colors! the perfection of the fit and the clicks! and despite all the videos, they can cruise slowly, dpendably and evenly (bandai power units). did i mention super-cheap? as already suggested above, negative vibes are counterproductive for our community.

 

I stand by my posts.  If you find them negative or positive is unimportant to me.  Over the past year, new release announcements have been repeats/repaints for the most part, and even then, have been happening irregularly.  Go back more than a year and these announcements were made virtually every month, around the 5th of the month.  I can go on yahoo japan auctions today and find most of the current announcements/releases for sale from the previous time(s) they were offered.  How does that improve things for those of us that collect these trains?  Aside from that side of things, I don't see what you consider negative. 

 

I believe my comments are balanced, unlike yours.  I have a huge collection of b trains and all of the types of power and trailing chassis'.  I would not have this collection if I was against B trains.  The difference is that I am not going to keep quiet about the not-so-good aspects when they arise, as I believe this information is just as, if not more, important than praise.  When I received my first b trains, they were very nearly my last.  I had problems with truck sideframes fouling and popping off the trucks, poor performance of trailing bogies and poor performance of motor chassis (compared to standard Japanese trains).  The only reason I didn't give up is because I found out that things DON'T work great "out of the box".  I found that you have to weight motor chassis', sometimes have multiple motors per trains, etc.  FYI, I keep wheels and track meticulously clean, have multiple power feeds to unitrack which I use since it is known to be the best for remaining clean.  I even go so far as to solder all track joins not just for electrical conductivity, but to carefully level all track joins to avoid lightweight b trains bouncing over track joins.

 

As someone new to b trains, I suggest you pay attention to some of the candid feedback, it will help from becoming disillusioned in the long run.  Bandai motor chassis' are 4 axle drive and have much stronger drivetrain components than Kato, on the flip side, bandai wheels are often out of round, nowhere near as smooth as Kato, suffer from dirt accumulation much quicker, slow down over time (I run trains for 1 or 2 hours at a time at train shows, and have to keep nudging up the throttles to maintain speed over time) and do not play nice with PWM controllers.  Kato chassis are much more "fragile", have fixed sideframes that seem too small, but they are much smoother running, have round wheels, do not slow down over extended running periods and play much nicer with PWM controllers.  While things like this might seem negative, it is important to know since it seems b trains really are a case of choosing compromises, much more so than other model trains. 

 

Still, if all of this discourages you, feel free to skip my posts, nobody forces you to read them.

[cteno4]

Ok guys that's enough. All the posts pre these two have been fine, with just opinions being expressed and that's good and we need to respect different experiences and opinions here. Let's let this drop here and continue on with the thread, it was just fine.

 

If anyone feels that someone is out of bounds, please contact the moderators off list about it and don't go straight to the forum with it, we would rather work it out off forum.

 

Now on with the shorties.

 

Thanks

 

Jeff

[locidm]

How do you guys weigh down your b trains? The bandai motor unit comes with four pieces of weight. I stuck two in each section of the enoden and it still gets stuck at the point. Granted it performed much better than before the weigh addition. Do I need more weight still? What do you use when the pieces of weight from the motor has been used up? Thanks.

[EF57]

jeff, i totally agree about the last two posts. I am amazed that my technical question, accompanied by very positive comments, was so negatively received. i will reply to those two posts, both of whose authors' contributions here i greatly admire (i know this forum inside and out-- i never said that i myself was a beginner, i was just imagining a theoretical beginner's reaction), really out of respect for them.

 

to kvp:

1. i did not say bandai power units were cheap, just that b trains are in general, as compared to normal n models.

2. putting in multiple power units to make up for crappy wheels will work, but is an inelegant, "sheer muscle" solution. what's wrong with better-rolling trucks?

3. THANK YOU so much for the idea of using kato trucks with the T-kai underframes, which are indeed practically identical with the good old SHG's. This solves my problem, though it is wasteful and expensive.

4. are kids who are playing on the floor with magnetic couplers really going to buy the T-kai underframes? And now we know that the bandai trucks pop off just as easily as the katos do.

 

to nickhp:

1. good idea about the sideways stacking to fabricate the hooks, thank you.

2. there is a big differnce between complaining about technical defects of the trains (as we both have done) and complaining about the whole company. hans- diesel already pointed out the possible consequences of this on p. 38 above. don't take it personally, it's just true.

3. who ever said you were against b trains??

4. what is unbalanced about my "not keeping quiet about the not-so-good aspects", as you yourself put it? The rest of my comments were a hymn of praise.

 

problem solved. thank you.

Edited February 19, 2017 by EF57

[kvp]

are kids who are playing on the floor with magnetic couplers really going to buy the T-kai underframes? 

This isn't what i meant to say. They will use the static ones that the units come with. This means those don't have to be compatible with any rolling bogies, just have to reliably lock the static bogies in a fixed forward position. Combining the two rolling kits (Bandai and Kato) is wasteful, but so far imho this is the easiest solution.

 

 

What do you use when the pieces of weight from the motor has been used up?

Personally i would like to see the return of the metal pickup bogies as adding one of these to an enoden car solved the running problem for me. It runs fine through all turnouts now, but i only use live frog turnouts for running b-trains. (also i used a black standard emu motor instead of the suggested gray tram motor and removed the rapido couplers, so it matches in color with the black trailer bogie) There is no added weight in it at all as i found it now runs fine as it is in its current B-B-2 configuration. (you may want to wire the pickups from the trailer bogie to the motor's pickups to improve reliability, but it requires very fine and flexible decoder wires)

Edited December 15, 2016 by kvp

[nickhp]

Does anyone have a link to the pin-point axle trucks mentioned? I have only ever known Bandai to make trailing trucks that use the axle in plastic tube approach.

 

Weight - I use Revell half-round pinecar weights from hobby lobby (http://www.hobbylobby.com/Crafts-Hobbies/Hobbies-Collecting/Pine-Cars/Combo-Weights/p/21401-KU0995). There are 4 sticks per pack, each stick has 6 segments. I break off 2 segments from each stick and use 4 segments per motor car, so can get 6 chassis' worth of weights per package. 4 segments in a row fit with the rounded side facing the roof and the flat side against the motor. Unfortunately, the other shapes foul the motor chassis. I'm sure you could get more weight by going with tungsten weights, but the revell weights are a good balance between weight and cost.

Edited December 15, 2016 by nickhp

[kvp]

You mean the pickup bogies? http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10123656/20/3/1 They are not pinpoint, but metal on metal bearing. This means they roll much better.

[nickhp]

I thought those trucks were the same as the current ones but with a metal strip that rubs on the axles on the inside edge of the wheels? I could swear they have the same axle in plastic tube setup, don't they? I will have to check when I get back to my house later...