Kato 20-210 double crossover - what am I doing wrong ?

[alain10025]

I got a total of seven Kato 20-210 double crossover on my layout and I realized that I may be doing something wrong with those... Indeed, two of them have died unexpectedly. Considering m overall satisfaction with Kato Unitrack, I am assuming I am doing something wrong...

 

What seems odd is the fact that these two crossovers died in a similar fashion: at some point, there seems to be a short circuit located in one of the four solenoids used for powering each turnouts. Because of these short circuits, other turnouts soon become unresponsive.

 

How did I identify the issue and confirm the short circuit ? Once I realized my double crossover was not working properly (typically following an unexpected derailment !), I opened it and investigated each turnout separately. Removing the faulty solenoid allowed to restore proper operation of the crossover for the three other turnouts. 

 

How I typically use my crossovers... These double crossovers are used to connect two tracks that are each powered with a different control box. 

 

Before the second double crossover died, I had to use a hammer to nail something close (less than a meter) from it. However, though I realize the vibrations induced by the hammer may be detrimental, I don't see how they could lead to any short circuit in the solenoid...

 

Have you experienced something similar ?

[cteno4]

I kind of doubt vibrations from a meter away would have done this unless it was really banging away.

 

on our very old club layout we would set up on the fly, we had a few times where double crossovers stopped firing right from electric power. Opening them up and just fiddling with them got them firing well again. I think it was them getting tossed into boxes between shows and jostled around a lot. Points never seemed to have this issue. So they are a bit more fragile but never had a servo totally blow on them.

 

double crossovers are a bit finicky, they require some amps to snap them well. I played with one using a modified capacitor discharge circuit and found they snapped better with the right cap charge, but have never put this into longterm use.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[alain10025]

Thank you for your reply! May I ask if you also use two distinct power sources for one double crossover ? I notice that as trains go through it changing track, if the trains has lights, it will undergo sudden accelerations as each car with lights transition from a track to another. I believe this is unavailable but I am still thinking I am missing something or doing something wrong... Thanks !

[cteno4]

Alain,

 

nope you are not missing anything, this is always the situation when going from one power pack to another in any situation, there will be a moment when a car gets power from both power packs (one truck on one side and the other on the other powerpack) and the motor unit will speed up for a second and lights will be brighter. This is going to be the case using more than one throttle and Kato or Tomix point power routing for you control when you transition from one throttle to another. To avoid this the next option is to isolate the power to blocks of rail and the use dpdt switches to power each section from the desired throttle to not have this transition effect. But block wiring is a lot more wiring and requires you to create some sort of control panel to control it all.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[brill27mcb]

What sort of power supply are you using to power your turnout motors? Are you aware that Kato and Tomix turnouts require DC power, not AC like American train sets?

 

Are you using the blue Kato-supplied turnout control boxes or regular pushbuttons (which you can hold down too long and fry the solenoid)?

 

Just checking some basics...

 

Rich K.

[cteno4]

Oh yes good catch bill, forgot to ask that.
 

yes push buttons for momentary contact of momentary toggle switches are big culprits of frying a solenoid. The solenoids are made for a very brief pulse of dc to snap just right.

 

jeff

[alain10025]

I am using Kato supplied power boxes and controls. Today I had a close look at my second failed double crossover. I can confirm that when I replace the faulty solenoid, everything works fine. I tried to closely inspect the faulty solenoid (visual inspection) but I could not identify any visible issue though... still a mystery to me... 

 

https://www.hobbylinc.com/community/members/191415/55434_gallery.htm

 

[cteno4]

Hmm, did you perhaps use the same point controller on each of the blown double crossovers? Strange you have had 2 of these blow.

 

jeff

[alain10025]

Interesting, this is a good point. I am not sure it was the same point controller or the same power pack unfortunately... These two events were about a year apart. I will identify those now just in case... !

[cteno4]

hmm it’s an odd one. The Kato solinoids are on the small side so if a controller was giving a longer pulse it might burn it out. I know folks have done that with kato points as their previous experience was with old atlas point servos that are really robust and can handle long pulses via push buttons or a momentary toggle switch.

 

i now prefer the bcd capacitor discharge circuit. Super simple with just cap and a spdt switch to run a Kato point or with a bigger cap a double crossover. Over time we had a number of the controllers start being funky sometimes not throwing a point or partially throwing a point (can be from to little of a pulse or to big a pulse and bounce back). No burned out coils just frustrating with off and on controller issues that sometimes were not consistent. The point controllers are very mechanical with it letting a contact snap past the electrical pickup to give a momentary pulse. Of course this won’t be exactly the same each time. But the cap discharge is pretty much the exact same pulse each time.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[Falcon]

I bought for all my Kato switches
this for a short contact

 

NOCH Weichenmodul für KATO und ROKUHAN Weichen

Art.-Nr. 60264 Weichenmodul

[alain10025]

Just a quick update. Thank you all for your tips. I replaced the faulty solenoid and the double crossover is now fully functional ! I changed the control box it was connected to, hopefully it will last longer !