Bachman loco is slower and makes odd noise

[Markakis2014]

Hi all,

 

today I was operating my N scale Bachmann GP40 on Kato Unitrack. It was traveling along just fine, but then mid-use it all of a sudden "seized up" for lack of better words, and started moving erratically. It was not traveling at high speed, having just left a station and was slowly accelerating. Now, when I operate it, it makes a loud whining sound, runs at about 50% of the speed, and can no longer run at low voltage. Usually I can have it crawl along at a slow speed at low voltage (I do this for fun as it approaches passenger stations that it does not stop at), but that is not the case. It either won't move or will move "jittery". It is not capable of traveling at a slow speed anymore at all in fact, it's either going or it's stopped.

 

Is it damaged beyond repair? It's a nice display piece and all, but I bought it from a retailer new only 2 months ago, and it had pretty light usage. Kind of frustrating if that's the case. I knew my Kato trains would long outlive the bachmann, but I didn't expect this much of a gap. 

 

I know absolutely nothing about train repair, so explain things to me with that in mind. I am very new to all of this. 

 

Thank you so much!

[cteno4]

Mark,

 

sounds like you may have snapped or stripped a driveshaft or one of the main gears. How old is the model? If not too old you should be able to get spare parts from bachmann. 
 

of course to figure out what broke you will have to open it up and disassemble it. This is something you just have to learn by doing. I would look on YouTube to see if anyone has a video of disassembling one of these to learn from. When you do this yourself make sure to take pictures of each step removing a part before and after and have a little compartment box to drop parts into separately so you can keep parts in order you took them off.

 

really you just need to dive in as it’s the only way to fix it and learn as well. Worst case is it doesn’t get fixed but you have started on the path to learning how the engines work! Just takes practice and gaining some confidence in diving in.

 

best of luck!

 

jeff

[SwallowAngel]

I would agree with Jeff here, it is likely a drive a train or motor problem.

Though by your description, my personal guess is that it might be burnt out or quasi-dead motor. I would disassemble the loco (carefully!) and hook the motor up to you power supply on its own. If it runs without any major issues, you might have a drive train issue. Otherwise, if it runs weird, smells weird, behaves weird or is weird you might wanna look into a motor replacement. 

Without any video (and audio) footage provided, or further descriptions, you're a bit on your own though. Unlike some computers, you can't fix model trains remotely....

 

I hope your repair efforts are successful, I know the frustration of a semi-broken model train all too well myself...

[cteno4]

Yes smell is a good indicator of motor issue. If you have a strong burnt electronics smell when running then that indicates motor has been scorched. But with a drive train problem can also put a lot of pressure on the motor and if you try to run it for a while under strain motors can start smelling a little (they actually always give off a whiff of ozone from brush sparking).

 

jeff

[Tuga]

Before you decide to buy a new motor, and as last resort try to apply some WD40 Contact Cleaner to the motor and brushes. I've been quite successful with several motors when they started to get slower or even come to a halt by doing this. 

[JR East]

@Tuga is right, a good WD40 "bath" is a first step. It has frequently fixed my issues too 

[Markakis2014]

So I hadn't checked the responses in a few days. Here is what I have done so far:

 

I disassembled the train. The worms are not stripped, neither are the sockets they fit into in the motor. The gearbox trucks seem fine as well, when I manually spin the rotor, the wheels turn and the gears turn as expected. So that leaves a motor issue. I'll try the WD40 thing, where exactly on the motor should I apply it?

 

@SwallowAngelhow do I hook up the motor to power on its own? I do not understand quite what you mean by that.

 

I'd really be surprised if the motor was scorched. Brand new model, and always runs at a pretty low speed, pulling a light load on shallow inclines. But given that it was probably on the shelf for a decade, maybe lubrication is the trick.

Edited October 26, 2023 by Markakis2014

[cteno4]

@Markakis2014 good on you for disassembling! This is retry much the main way you learn this. Any luck on YouTube search’s for this model and issues?

 

just to make sure, did you hold the motor from rotating and try rotating each drive train out to the worm gear? Sometimes they are loose at a connection and good enough to spin some but under pressure they slip.

 

yes lubrication is something to try. Clean out the grease you can around the worm gears and apply some thicker gear oil (labelles #106 grease or #102 oil) to the worm gears. For the truck gears #102 oil works well and #108 for axles and the motor bearings. Make sure there is not a lot of muck in the truck gears, at times they can suck up a lot of dust and hair. If you have some really fine needle nosed tweezers you can pick around in the gears to see if anything is in there or wrapped around gear or wheel axles without having to disassemble. If you find some usually best to pull it apart to clean well. A little ultrasonic bath is great for this and can be had for $20 or less. Do all your lubing very sparingly as overlubing just mucks everything up fast and acts like a magnet for smutz. Use a tiny amount on a toothpick or a micro dental applicator, don’t use the needle applicator as it’s bound to make too big a drop.

 

wd40 contact cleaner (not wd40 lubricant) is a good last ditch solution on motors as at times they get buildup on brushes and pickups that this can clear. You may need to relube the motor bearings at each end after this and do this really sparingly, add some run motor a bit and add a tad more.

 

jeff

[SwallowAngel]

@Markakis2014 If you're able to, remove the engine from the chassis and use the motor contacts to power it (polarity is irrelevant, asit is a motor). Any power source up to 12V (i.e. a battery or whatever) should do, but a controller is preferable, as you can control  the voltage. You could use the rails and a pair of crocodile clips for example...

Otherwise I would try to isolate the motor from the gear train. You could remove the worm gear, or lift the motor out so the motor is able to spin on its own. Assuming the contacts to the train wheels are still present, you can simply plop the loco back onto the track and power it as usual.

In both cases the result should be the same: A motor spinning on its own without any resistance from the drive train.

 

While the model is disassembled, you might wanna try lubricating the gears and worm drive as well. A good lube up can do wonders for models 

[Markakis2014]

I found this thread about the exact same model, same thing with a brand new loco, just a less severe issue. 

 

https://www.nscale.net/forums/showthread.php?52013-Squeal-be-gone!-(Bachmann-GP40)-a-success

 

What do you guys suggest for lubrication? Is the WD-40 reasonable? 

 

[cteno4]

@Markakis2014 No on the wd40 lubricant! They were referring to wd40 contact cleaner to clean out a motors brushes and contacts. Contact cleaner will actually push oil out of bearings and such so after you use them to clean something that was lubricated you need to relubricate it. Wd40 lubricant is too thick for tiny motor bearings (it’s made for big stuff) and it’s just not formulated for model trains.
 

the usual out there are the labelles oils and greases. It’s available all over the place and even in little sets as well.
 

If you want to go fancy (and a bit more expensive) there is also nano lube that uses buckyballs as lubricant and is a bit more of a dry lubricant. I’ve just started to use it and am liking it and it’s touted by folks that have more tricky lubrication issues like on complex steam articulations.
 

For the motor bearings you want a very fine oil and just a tiny amount as too much and the bearings get very mucked up. Labelles 108 works well for the motor bearings and shaft ends on gear shafts. #102 works great on gears and even the worm gears. If you want to use grease on the worm gears you can use #106 grease.

 

worth it to get yourself some good train oils as they will last you the rest of your life. Lubing is something that needs done every so often on trains and best to use a quality product that are made for tiny train gears and bearings.

 

apply the lubricants very sparingly using a toothpick or micro dental applicator. Apply some, run and apply more if needed.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[SwallowAngel]

I have never used WD-40, but as others have said, it seems to do the job just fine.

I have also heard Sewing-Machine Oil being recommended, but personally I use what I have lying around: Trumpet slide oil (Yes, I know, bit of an odd choice)

It is quite light oil, but retains a higher viscosity than other light lubricants. As it's made for brass instruments, it's also safe to use on brass and plastics.

It seems to be priced higher than other lubricants though, so I would only recommend it if you have it lying around

 

[brill27mcb]

I would not advise using WD40 (which is really more of a water displacement (hence the "WD" in its name) and penetrating oil) or sewing machine oil, or Wahl hair clipper oil for that matter (also recommended by old-timers back in the past). Stick with the more recently developed hobby-specific lubricants like Labelle, as Jeff recommended. On the other hand, if you are restoring old machinery or automobiles with rusted and frozen bolts, use WD40, Kroil or products of that type.

 

Rich K.

[Markakis2014]

Ok, I have contact cleaner wd40 coming in the mail, and I'll order the labelle oils. 

 

So I should just apply it to all the places where the motor spins, the gaps in between where the worm attaches and the brass body?

 

Thank you all for the help, this community is awesome!

 

[cteno4]

Yes wd40 is meant to help loosen things up, displace moisture to help slow corrosion and break up corroded bits. It’s not meant as a long term gear lubricant, but to get stuff loosed and going and corrosion broken up. If you are working in big gears, bearings and the like and use wd40 to get things unstuck or moving better, once it’s working you do need to go back and try to remove excess wd40 and lubricate the surfaces with the proper lubricant then for the long haul.

 

you can think of a few bottles of good small scale train oil as like purchasing a tool you will use the rest of your life, as like a tool, short of loosing it you will have it the rest of your life as you use so little! I have the same bottles of various labelles from 25 years ago and they have lubricated countless trains over the years in my fleet and our club’s.

 

again want to make a big difference between wd40 the lubricant/unsticker and wd40 contact cleaner. Wd40 use to just be the name of their lubricant to unstick bolts and such. It later became a brand name and they have several products now all under the wd40 brand name. The one we have discussed often in the last couple of years is the wd40 electrical contact cleaner that looks to be the best solution to clean track and wheels and help prevent microarcing that causes the black gunk that will keep appearing on rails when you use lower dielectric

 

jeff

[cteno4]

@Markakis2014 yes the ot or bearings will be where the shaft exits the silver motor can and that’s inside of the brass flywheel there. Did you take the other flywheel off? For the motor bearings you want to use the very fine oil like labelles 108. Use it very sparingly on these bearings as they can easily get gummed up with too much. Those black boots on either side of the motor just looks like some housing protection of the motor bearings, looks like you popped one open.

 

with the contact cleaner you can spray some on a qtip to rub the various physical press contacts. If you have pulled the trucks apart you can also clean all the contact points in there with the wipes and back of the wheels (or where ever those pickups are. 
 

With this sealed can motor like you have (no openings to the motor interior) you can’t do anything really with the contact cleaner on the motor. Hitting an open motor with contact cleaner is sort of a last ditch effort to save a bad motor anyway.

 

for the contact cleaner and your track just spray some on a cotton cloth and go at your track with it over your finger (I find this the most versatile) or a small flat stick. Just keep going over it until the black lines stop showing up heavy on your track. The fun thing about using this sort of contact cleaner is over time you actually need to do this less and less as the micro pits in the track surface are coated with the cleanser elements and not water and things like alcohols most folks were cleaning with. 
 

you are on your way here now to learning how to repair your trains! First one is the scariest and then they get easier as you build confidence and knowledge. Good on ya!
 

cheers

 

jeff

[Markakis2014]

3 hours ago, cteno4 said:

@Markakis2014 yes the ot or bearings will be where the shaft exits the silver motor can and that’s inside of the brass flywheel there. Did you take the other flywheel off? For the motor bearings you want to use the very fine oil like labelles 108. Use it very sparingly on these bearings as they can easily get gummed up with too much. Those black boots on either side of the motor just looks like some housing protection of the motor bearings, looks like you popped one open.

 

with the contact cleaner you can spray some on a qtip to rub the various physical press contacts. If you have pulled the trucks apart you can also clean all the contact points in there with the wipes and back of the wheels (or where ever those pickups are. 
 

With this sealed can motor like you have (no openings to the motor interior) you can’t do anything really with the contact cleaner on the motor. Hitting an open motor with contact cleaner is sort of a last ditch effort to save a bad motor anyway.

 

for the contact cleaner and your track just spray some on a cotton cloth and go at your track with it over your finger (I find this the most versatile) or a small flat stick. Just keep going over it until the black lines stop showing up heavy on your track. The fun thing about using this sort of contact cleaner is over time you actually need to do this less and less as the micro pits in the track surface are coated with the cleanser elements and not water and things like alcohols most folks were cleaning with. 
 

you are on your way here now to learning how to repair your trains! First one is the scariest and then they get easier as you build confidence and knowledge. Good on ya!
 

cheers

 

jeff

 

There's only one brass flywheel in this model, I did not remove any parts. The black boots are very loose on both ends.

What do the bearings look like? are we talking like little metal balls? I don't see anything inside of those boots other than just the ends of the motor, flywheel, and the pole that goes between them.

 

Thank you so much for your help! You've been great, I appreciate the support a ton. I'm excited for the day when this gets easier, aha.

 

The labelle oils are in the mail, I got the 3 pak set, should arrive in a week or so, long ship time to new england from the south.

[cteno4]

@Markakis2014 those boots are just to keep dust away from the motor bearings I would suspect. may be hard to get to the bearings on the flywheel side unless you can pry it back enoug to slip a toothpick in along the engine end to put a dab on the shaft where it comes out of the motor can. Couldn’t hurt to put a tiny bit on the shaft at where it comes out of those boots to just make a slick surface on that opening in the plastic boot.
 

You really can’t see the motor bearings (they are tiny tiny ball bearings) as they are just inside the hole in the motor end where the shaft comes out. Tiny bit of fine oil will wick in there to the bearings. Since the bearings are so tiny they need very little oil.

 

labells set should last you forever! Good investment for your trains. I usually use the heavier oil on my worm gears out of habit as older formulation grease can dry out some with long periods and get caked up, but modern greases are much better.

 

you are most welcome, always great to see someone fix their first engine and get that smile of accomplishment!

 

Btw I find these little lip brushes great for cleaning wheels and contacts, better than Qtips that tend to fall apart fast and shed fibers. Also these eyeliner brushes are great for applying oil in tiny amounts and also cleaning out books and crannies. The white ones are firm for cleaning and micro oil application and the red ones are more like a brush and good for medium oil on gears. Also useful for cleaning, lubing and glueing are different sized dental micro applicators.

 

cheers,

 

jeff

[Markakis2014]

My Labelle oils arrived yesterday. The little tubes with needles that they give you in the packaging are worse than useless, ended up spilling a ton of 108 on the desk because the seal is so poor. I jerryrigged a device up to administer it though. Not sure if I put it in the correct place or not. Unfortunately, the train still does not operate. So I guess it's just a burnt out motor. Just worried about buying a part for the model that costs like a third of what it did anyways, that I really do not know how to install or if its even the issue.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Markakis2014

[disturbman]

2 hours ago, Markakis2014 said:

The little tubes with needles that they give you in the packaging are worse than useless, ended up spilling a ton of 108 on the desk because the seal is so poor.

Had mine for several years. I never had any issues.

 

Where did you apply your oil/grease?

[Markakis2014]

37 minutes ago, disturbman said:

Had mine for several years. I never had any issues.

 

Where did you apply your oil/grease?

Where the thin metal shaft is, hidden behind the rubber rings. I moved the rubber rings out of the way, put one drop at each location where the shaft met the flywheel or motor. Then I also applied grease to the wheels.

 

I must have just gotten unlucky with Labelle! My homemade needle system works good though.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Markakis2014

[cteno4]

I never use the needles to apply at times they can burp way to big a drop of oil. Why I alway as apply to some sort of applicator so I can wife off excess if necessary and apply tiny amounts at a time in a controlled fashion. So easy to over apply lubrication and it really has a big effect on n scale mechs.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[disturbman]

It sounds to me you did everything right. My only suggestion would be to pop the motor out and apply current directly to it to see if it runs. You could have an unlikely short, but otherwise, yeah, the motor is probably dead.

 

At least, changing a motor is not rocket science. And you will end up solving your issue 🙂