SL58654号 Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 I've always admired the brightly polished brass number plates on steam locos and the bright numerals of plates on diesels and electrics in Japan as well. All locomotives in Japan usually had four number plates in all on each side. Correct me if I'm wrong, but instead of number plates American locomotives usually just had their numbers painted on. They are pieces of railwayana that easily distinguish which railway a locomotive belonged to because of their distinctive design (much like how identifiable plates from British or South African locomotives are). Maker's plates I've always liked too, and there are numerous design based on the several different locomotive manufacturers who've supplied Japan with its locomotives throughout its rail history. I have just a cardboard replica of locomotive 58654's number plate in given to me by a Japanese friend who equally loves the SL Hitoyoshi. Does anyone on this forum collect full-sized replicas made of brass or indeed original Japanese locomotive number plates themselves? I'm not planning on collecting any (so far) but I'd like to hear from others. Also, why were some Japanese SL number plates red, green, blue, brown etc.? Why the difference? Link to comment
Kamome Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 (edited) I went to an open day at a JR maintenance depot which had a few shed plates and SL loco number plates in a silent auction. Let’s just say that the auction was won by a company bid rather than by an individual so I can only imagine what they paid. Like a lot of railway memorabilia, Loco plates are especially sort after and expensive in Japan and I certainly haven’t seen the quantity available as you can find in the UK. Replicas may be the way to go. Tokyu Hands in Hakata sell a replica Blue train Sakura headmark but that is about ¥200,000 iirc. As for plate colours, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information on this. Some info would suggest red plates indicated a new bolier or well performing locomotive whereas black was standard. I wonder if this was the case as SLs were gradually phased out. Green for special occasions but this may have varied across different engine wards. Not sure how accurate this information is. Also some locomotives have used blue or wisteria coloured number plates. Edited September 12, 2023 by Kamome 1 Link to comment
ED75-775 Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 Collecting locomotive number or maker's plates is a very dangerous hobby to get into, simply for the fact that they're so sought after in railwayana circles. It's why I don't have any myself, though I do have an original carriage sign from the Nederlandse Spoorwegen/Dutch National Railways that was gifted to me by my grandfather. I have seen JNR number plates for sale but as @Kamome says, they certainly aren't as available as in other countries. 29 minutes ago, SL58654号 said: Correct me if I'm wrong, but instead of number plates American locomotives usually just had their numbers painted on. Many American locomotives did have their numbers painted on, but some railroads did have front 'plates on their locomotives, particularly in the early days but in some cases right up until the end of steam operations. Case in point, the Pennsylvania Railroad with their 'keystone' front numberplates, the Union Pacific 4000-class 'Big Boys' with a small UP shield including the road number on the front of the leading engine unit, or the three-foot gauge engines of the East Broad Top and Denver & Rio Grande Western just to name a few. If the real thing is too expensive, as it is for most, then there is of course the option to purchase a replica and again the United Kingdom leads the way in this. While a replica 'plate doesn't have the history of the real thing, it is eminently more affordable. Alastair 1 Link to comment
SL58654号 Posted September 12, 2023 Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 20 minutes ago, Kamome said: As for plate colours, there seems to be a lot of conflicting information on this. Some info would suggest red plates indicated a new bolier or well performing locomotive whereas black was standard. I wonder if this was the case as SLs were gradually phased out. Green for special occasions but this may have varied across different engine wards. Not sure how accurate this information is. Also some locomotives have used blue or wisteria coloured number plates. I was told different colors (not sure which in particular) were indeed for special occasions. That's probably a niche detail better known to Japanese rail fans. Wisteria colored plates look nice. I've been told of brown numberplates, but I haven't found any photographic evidence yet. Link to comment
SL58654号 Posted September 12, 2023 Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 30 minutes ago, ED75-775 said: Many American locomotives did have their numbers painted on, but some railroads did have front 'plates on their locomotives, particularly in the early days but in some cases right up until the end of steam operations. Case in point, the Pennsylvania Railroad with their 'keystone' front numberplates, the Union Pacific 4000-class 'Big Boys' with a small UP shield including the road number on the front of the leading engine unit, or the three-foot gauge engines of the East Broad Top and Denver & Rio Grande Western just to name a few. Ah, of course! How silly of me to forget. I'm from Pennsylvania and have read much on the PRR and visited the East Broad Top myself. And I should know many Baldwin locomotives were supplied with numeral roundels for the purchasing railroad by default, for instance. Link to comment
Kamome Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 (edited) 54 minutes ago, SL58654号 said: I've been told of brown numberplates Only know of ELs carrying brown plates but perhaps a few SLs carried them too. I think many diesels just had individual numbers rather than a plate but could be some exceptions. D51 498 with wisteria purple. http://chironet.way-nifty.com/chiro/2010/12/d513-4a0c.html Obviously as a restored and modernised loco this may have not been a thing back in the day. Other locos have carried purple plates for 7th decade celebrations. Edited September 12, 2023 by Kamome 1 Link to comment
SL58654号 Posted September 12, 2023 Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 @Kamome A guy told me he had photos of SL in the last days of steam carrying brown 'plates, but I never saw them. Could be possible. Heck, a Sakura pink SL numberplate would be right up my alley! Link to comment
SwallowAngel Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 (edited) On 9/12/2023 at 11:43 AM, Kamome said: Some info would suggest red plates indicated a new bolier or well performing locomotive whereas black was standard. The red number plate issue plagued me for a while too, but I haven't found anything up until now. However I've found a couple of things that could hint at the "new boiler" theory: Wikipedia has this picture of C57 1 showing red number plates. Additionally, steamlocomotivejapan notes a tender overhaul and maybe other work done earlier that year. We also know from this german website, that C57 1 had a black number plates fitted before that. So it is most likely, that red number plates are associated with major locomotive overhaul. However I would need more info to confirm that. The website that lists the locomotive histories seems to be defunct since 2011, as no updates are younger than that. While not completely contradicting the theory, this YouTube video shows both D51 200 and C57 1 with red plates. While D51 200 made it's return to steam that year (according to the video description), we are left with no potential explanation as to why C57 1 has red plates. So either the red is a celebratory decoration piece for special occasions (such as the return of a locomotive) OR C57 1 also had a major overhaul around 2017 that I missed. On 9/12/2023 at 12:56 PM, SL58654号 said: Heck, a Sakura pink SL numberplate would be right up my alley! I think a pink sakura SL isn't something too unrealistic... Edited September 15, 2023 by SwallowAngel 1 Link to comment
SL58654号 Posted September 12, 2023 Author Share Posted September 12, 2023 @SwallowAngel Well kudos to your theory. I've asked a veteran Japanese JRS member and fellow SL fan and hopefully he may affirm it. I think you might be on the right track. (No pun intended) 1 hour ago, SwallowAngel said: I think a pink sakura SL isn't something too unrealistic... Well, yes! But I meant just the numberplate! 🤣 A black livery and pink numberplate with polished brass numerals would be divine in spring surrounded by sakura. Shame that almost no steam in Japan (aside from maybe the earlier imported locomotives) were any color other than black. Only 58654 in green is what I know of and I thought it looked great. It of course looks incredible in blue as according to this brass model, but this was inaccurate. Link to comment
SwallowAngel Posted September 12, 2023 Share Posted September 12, 2023 2 hours ago, SL58654号 said: Shame that almost no steam in Japan (aside from maybe the earlier imported locomotives) were any color other than black Reminds me of the utilitarian black and red of german steam engines, though I do think that japanese steam locomotives are a bit more elegant. I always thought that german colour schemes looked like overalls, while japanese locomotive liveries (especially the accented ones) are more comparable to suits... Anyhow, am having a bit of a hard time imagining the steam engines in anything else other than black, but I think some darker colours alà british railways (perhaps some brunswick green, express passenger blue or LMS crimson lake) could suit them very nicely. Oh well, in the end the closest we'll probably get are the Oigawa's Thomas liveries... 1 Link to comment
200系 Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 From what I've been able to gather, there were two specific categories when it came to the colour being used for a (National Railway) steam locomotive number plate. The first being the engine ward the locomotive was assigned to, with for example Nagoya ward based locomotives using red number plates, Maibara ward green etc. The second seems to have been, as a few members already alluded to, related to colour coding the level of repair at certain workshops, with those in excellent condition receiving red plates, close to excellent blue while ordinary engines retained black plates. The railway museum provided a brief explanation of this about a decade ago on their facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/teppaku/photos/a.143266109102492/519429201486179/?type=3&locale=ja_JP 3 hours ago, Kamome said: Like a lot of railway memorabilia, Loco plates are especially sort after and expensive in Japan and I certainly haven’t seen the quantity available as you can find in the UK. From my personal observation, I think the concept of railway nostalgia plays a much lesser role in the larger Japanese railfan community than it does in Britain anyway. I've rarely come across anything similar to the all encompassing 'everything was better in the old days, modern trains, especially EMUs, are plastic, soulless, rubbish' attitude sometimes found in parts of the British railfan community, let alone the absolute vitriol against any different form of traction other than steam, once again especially EMUs, by elements within the steam enthusiast community, within the Japanese railfan community. That isn't to say such attitudes do not exist in Japan, you are probably in a much better position to judge either group than I am, but it is one of those differences which may or may not impact the size of the community interested in nostalgic memorabilia like this. Add to this other cultural difference, like the way Japanese railfans tend to organize themselves in their own specific circles related to the specific area within the Japanese world of railway enthusiasts (tori-tetsu, oto-tetsu, yomi-tetsu etc.), and your looking at a rather narrow niche within a niche for items like this. Things like smaller home sizes, on average (number plates tend to be rather heavy and large comparatively), limited availability and high prices may also influence the size of the market as well. Another part of the reason may simply lie in the way both countries dispose of their scrapped rolling stock. In the UK, as you're probably aware of, most scrapped rolling stock is sold to private scrapyards for dismantling, with the scrapyard actually becoming the owner of the rolling stock in question after the sale has been completed, though sometimes these contracts would include the obligation to return certain parts, like for example traction motors or even bogies, if they were still of use as spare parts for other active members of the same class, or other still in service classes which used the same parts. As a result, it wasn't unusual for rolling stock to simply being left to languish in various states of repair for years if not decades as yard owners waited for scrap prices to increase, first worked through less labour intensive items, or in the case of MU and locomotive hauled passenger stock, struggled with the problems posed by asbestos insulation and other asbestos containing parts which had to be safely removed and disposed, which was an expensive, slow and labour intensive process at the best of times, especially during the late 1970's and 1980's (some scrapyards like Mayer Newman in Snailwell found, ehm, rather interesting methods to dispose of their asbestos containing stock to speed up the process (legally)). This combination of privately owned stock, a low pace of scrapping and access to the rolling stock in question due to the accessible locations, both legally and illegally, meant that it was relatively easy for enthusiasts to enter these yards and retrieve memorabilia, once again both through legal and illegal means, which otherwise might have been lost. Barry scrapyard is of course an excellent example when it comes to steam locomotives, while Vic Berry with its famous wall of diesel locomotives/coaches was a good example of this when it came to BR first generation diesels, first generation DMUs, BR southern region MK1 based EMUs (2/4-EPBs, 4-CIGs, 4-REPs etc.) non southern region DC EMU coaches (surplus Manchester-Bury Class 504's etc.) and the occasional first gen AC EMU (mainly the LNER designed, former 1.5 kV, class 306 coaches, unrefurbished Class 302, Class 304, class 305 and a couple of AM3/Class 303 coaches), with Vic Berry actively selling cut out number plates to enthusiasts at their office from what I've heard. In contrast, Japanese rolling stock has historically been dismantled at specially prepared sites close to, or within the confines of a number of larger workshops. After being scrapped (administratively), these days the dismantling of the stock in question is usually subcontracted to a specialized firm, which uses its own heavy equipment to dismantle the car/locomotive with the remaining scrap being disposed of by the same company as well. Ownership of the rolling stock in question, as far as I know, remains with the railway company in question, with only the scrap being transferred to the dismantling company after work has been completed. Historically, prior to the introduction of hydraulic sheers in the late 1980's and early 1990's (and for some private railway companies even the early 2000's) workshop personal would actually carry out the dismantling work themselves using blowtorches to cut up the car/locomotive in question, with the scrap being sold for recycling afterwards. So, why does this matter for the question at hand? Well, its simple really, due to the high pace of dismantling, scrapped rolling stock generally tends to be disposed of relatively quickly when compared to other countries, which of course provides limited possibilities for the removal of 'souvenirs' by/for railfans, with the secluded nature of the dismantling work also adding to the difficulty, which doesn't even include the legal and cultural factors also at play. However, railway companies, both private and public, have been auctioning/selling of parts from scrapped cars/locomotives for decades now, with number plates/car numbers regularly being removed/cut out of scrapped cars for either general sale or preservation. This doesn't just involve railfans however, with surplus parts and sometimes entire carbodies being sold off at auction, which for example saw a large number of 0 series shinkansen seats being sold to for example municipal hospitals after the batch 1 and 2 cars started to be scrapped in the autumn of 1976, while the Kōnan Dentetsu sold a number of carbodies from their former Tōkyū 6000 series cars for use as storage sheds throughout the prefecture. Sales to enthusiasts are usually handled through a lottery system during open days and events, with those lucky enough to draw a winning ticket being allowed to bid on the item(s) they selected on their entry from. This does seem to have happened for scrapped steam locomotives as well, some pictures I've seen of Japanese steam locomotives being dismantled show engines with their number plates having been removed prior to dismantling and their running numbers having been painted on the front of the smoke door, cab sides etc, while other show engines being dismantled with their number plates still attached. The same seems to have been the case for builders plates as well, which were, and are still, highly sought after items as well. Now this of course doesn't mean all those plates were sold or preserved in any way or form, and I'd wager the majority of were disposed in some fashion, however, pictures of enthusiasts showcasing their freshly acquired number plates at the former Tōkyō Transportation Museum do show us that at least a number of those were available to enthusiasts during the late 1970's. 3 hours ago, SL58654号 said: Shame that almost no steam in Japan (aside from maybe the earlier imported locomotives) were any color other than black. opinions will differ on this of course, however, personally I'm glad Japanese railways, both nationalized and private, kept their steam locomotives (mainly) black throughout the steam era. I get why people gravitate towards the more colourful engines used by some railway systems, however I've personally always felt that painting am obvious industrial object like a steam locomotive, which constantly spews out a massive cloud of black sooty stuff, in anything other than black or a similar dark colour feels wrong somehow, perhaps even a little conceited. This is one of the reasons why I personally, even though I do quite like British steam engines, tend to prefer American, South-African, Chinese and German steam locomotives (and of course Japanese but that should go without saying) over their British counterparts. Now I generally tend to prefer more understated, industrial designs in general, so that shouldn't be all that strange, however, I do always find it it interesting to see how we all prefer different aspects, even within a similar area of interest (i.e. steam locomotives in this case). 9 hours ago, SL58654号 said: (aside from maybe the earlier imported locomotives) I believe most imported locomotives, even the earliest British built locomotives, were mainly painted black as well, though some of our resident experts when it comes to Japanese steam may be able to give a more conclusive answer. 1 Link to comment
SL58654号 Posted September 13, 2023 Author Share Posted September 13, 2023 @SwallowAngel I believe you were right! According to my friend Hiroshi Naito Quote I heard that there used to be a practice applying red number plates to locomotives which keep good shape in performance. Nowadays, I think, red numbers are used as just kind of art when something special happened to a locomotive, such as having been rehabilitated, upon a special event, etc. Link to comment
SL58654号 Posted September 13, 2023 Author Share Posted September 13, 2023 (edited) 6 hours ago, 200系 said: I believe most imported locomotives, even the earliest British built locomotives, were mainly painted black as well, though some of our resident experts when it comes to Japanese steam may be able to give a more conclusive answer. @200系 Well, somewhat ironically, you might be surprised that the Baldwin Loco Works had a Book of Styles and seeing as how they supplied 700 or so steam locomotives to Japan they tended to come in liveries other than black; usually olive and green liveries with many stylistic lines. They might've been just as colorful if not more so than the British imported locomotives. We can tell from the builder's photos and the styles listed on the builder's cards that they were almost never black, at least not exclusively. I'm quite partial to 🇺🇸 American engines like this made for Japanese railways since they have British buffer-and-chain couplings, giving them what I like to call an "Anglicized-American look". The same goes for American engines built for British and other foreign railways. Edited September 13, 2023 by SL58654号 1 Link to comment
SL58654号 Posted September 13, 2023 Author Share Posted September 13, 2023 For all of you that love numberplates from Japanese locomotives out there, what's more Japanese than this D51 498 Daruma doll? A few other Japanese SL have been known to have these as well. There are also reduced size replica maker's plate replicas like this one from a Dübs engine. I like the plate ground colors in red, black or blue especially. Link to comment
200系 Posted September 13, 2023 Share Posted September 13, 2023 14 hours ago, SL58654号 said: Well, somewhat ironically, you might be surprised... Not really, no. I prefaced my comment for a reason, which is that I'm somewhat out of my comfort zone when talking about (Japanese) steam, especially early steam, so I pretty much expected to be corrected by those more invested in the subject, which would obviously include yourself, in the first place. So no I personally wasn't all that surprised to learn this may not have been the case, though in my defence, I was mainly referring to the boiler as opposed to the cab, tender, auxiliaries etc, which isn't actually mentioned in the Baldwin book of styles. Link to comment
maihama eki Posted September 14, 2023 Share Posted September 14, 2023 Regarding Japanese railway physical memorabilia… I regularly pick up RM Models magazine, and they have articles on layouts in personal homes in Japan. They might show the entire room, maybe with the owner, and frequently you will see memorabilia hanging on the wall in the background – number plates seem to be especially common. Some may be reproductions, but probably not all of them are. A few years ago, the Tokyu Hands in Ikebukuro had a limited time sort of pop-up with a selection of Japanese railway pieces. I think I somehow became aware of it, and we made a special trip up there on a visit. They had a fairly large offering of items including quite a few head marks, some signs indicating routes, maybe some number board signs, and some uniform items. The larger, more obviously desirable items were very expensive - equivalent of $100s to $1000 USD or more. I bought one of the route signs, and a uniform arm band. I had no idea how much these items were worth, and had limited suitcase space and budget. Sign – it’s two sided. I think it was around Y8000, but I don’t remember for sure. It was maybe used on the Tokaido line? It is steel with enamel paint, and is rusty around the edges like it was actually used at one time. The arm band. I still have the package for it. It was Y3500. I'm definitely Chief Conductor on my home railroad - along with every other job. After this, I assumed there must be a market for these items in Japan, but I've never seen similar items again. Probably you need to find the right antique store. 3 Link to comment
SL58654号 Posted September 15, 2023 Author Share Posted September 15, 2023 Another thing: sometimes some SL wear different smoke box door handles on some occasions. Why is this? Does this also relate to overhauls? Link to comment
SwallowAngel Posted September 15, 2023 Share Posted September 15, 2023 13 hours ago, SL58654号 said: Another thing: sometimes some SL wear different smoke box door handles on some occasions. Why is this? Does this also relate to overhauls? I have seen this vid previously, I haven't noticed the different handle up until now though... As for smokebox door handles though, I think they are just purely decorative. I haven't been able to find too many pictures of fancy smokebox door handles being used in actual revenue service. Additionally, the handles, unlike number plates, rarely change. I think the best example for this would be C11 325 and C12 66 from the Mōka Railway: https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Japanese-national-railways-C11-325-20140505.jpg https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Japanese-national-railways-C12-66-20110805.jpg Both engines feature star-shaped door handles throughout preservation and seem to do so, even when having coloured number plates (C11 and C12 photos w/ red number plates). There are also multiple other fancy door handles being seemingly used for decorative purposes: C57 139: Equipped with a special 8 pointed star-shaped door handle for it's "Sayonara" train (link) C58 1: Equipped with flower shaped handle as part of it's imperial train livery at Umekouji (link) C51 239: Featuring round handle with curved center spokes when it pulled the train for Emperor Hirohito's enthronement (Currently preserved at Umekouji)(link) C57 1: Only wore a star-shaped handles for it's imperial livery and throughout preservation. During normal service it featured the normal handles (link) While I am no expert and have limited access to primary sources, I think it's safe to say door handles are purely decorative. There could be more indicated by them, but I have found no evidence as of now... 1 Link to comment
SL58654号 Posted September 15, 2023 Author Share Posted September 15, 2023 @SwallowAngel And also the side and connecting rod fluting is sometimes painted in colors like green or red. Is that also arbitrary? Link to comment
SwallowAngel Posted September 15, 2023 Share Posted September 15, 2023 (edited) On 9/15/2023 at 4:34 PM, SL58654号 said: @SwallowAngel And also the side and connecting rod fluting is sometimes painted in colors like green or red. Is that also arbitrary? Most likely, though again I have limited access to primary and offline sources due to me not being able to read/speak Japanese. A few quick examples of locomotives hinting at this though: D51 498: Seen here sporting red number plates, but having no accented fluting. However D51 498 did have fluting in it's Orient Express livery, probably only for ornamental reasons... C57 1: Wore accented fluting multiple times, both with and without red number plates (link). Also seen in it's imperial get up with green accents (link) D51 838: Going real fancy, it had both red and green fluting for it's imperial livery (link), but not during normal operation as seen belowhttps://img.aucfree.com/h370390051.1.jpg (Ref) However, painted side rods do have some practical use: As the rods aren't bare metal anymore, they do become more corrosion and rust resistant. This is something got from german railway circles though. But considering that metal is metal around the globe, this probably applies to japanese SL's too. For this to be effective though, you do have to cover the entire rod in paint, rather than just the flute. This is most likely the reason statically displayed locomotives get a completely white (& accented) running gear though: Instead of constantly having to maintain the bare metal you just cover the metal in paint and call it a day. So in a nutshell: Accented flutes: Decorative pieces Completely painted running gear: Ease of maintenance and rust and corrosion resistance Once again though, I am no expert. If anyone has different information, feel free to correct me Edited September 21, 2023 by SwallowAngel Grammar 1 Link to comment
SL58654号 Posted September 21, 2023 Author Share Posted September 21, 2023 (edited) Here's another question: when did and why did Japanese locomotive numberplates (particularly on the earlier imported types) have "Type" written in English before the class number until they had the kanji in its place? Edited September 21, 2023 by SL58654号 Link to comment
Kamome Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 I'm certainly not well informed in this area but I think you've sort of answered part of your own question, imported locomotives from countries that had sizeable railway infrastructure already with different locomotive classes or types. Japan tend to mimic or adopt existing practises, although asking an overseas manufacturer to add kanji may have been a tall order. Look at the vast array of Chinese and Japanese tattoos with questionable meanings these days. I would imagine after the dynamic of their overseas relationships changed between 1914 and 1945, British, American and Germanic railway practises may have been done away with. 1 Link to comment
railsquid Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 On 9/14/2023 at 2:16 PM, maihama eki said: A few years ago, the Tokyu Hands in Ikebukuro had a limited time sort of pop-up with a selection of Japanese railway pieces. I think I somehow became aware of it, and we made a special trip up there on a visit. They had a fairly large offering of items including quite a few head marks, some signs indicating routes, maybe some number board signs, and some uniform items. The larger, more obviously desirable items were very expensive - equivalent of $100s to $1000 USD or more. I bought one of the route signs, and a uniform arm band. I had no idea how much these items were worth, and had limited suitcase space and budget. Sign – it’s two sided. I think it was around Y8000, but I don’t remember for sure. It was maybe used on the Tokaido line? It is steel with enamel paint, and is rusty around the edges like it was actually used at one time. The arm band. I still have the package for it. It was Y3500. I'm definitely Chief Conductor on my home railroad - along with every other job. After this, I assumed there must be a market for these items in Japan, but I've never seen similar items again. Probably you need to find the right antique store. There's enough of this stuff floating around, sometimes at popup events like the one you mention, or at exhibitions. Otherwise it's a question of finding the right shops; Shosen Book Tower in Akihabara usually has a random selection of stuff; last time I went there, Mandarake in Nagano Broadway was split ca. 50-50 between models and railway paraphernalia. There is (or was, haven't been to any since before Covid) also a small chain of stores in and around Tokyo whose name I've completely forgotten who sell railway paraphernalia together with a random selection of junky models. There may be other vendors, but so far I have avoided this particular rabbit hole. 1 Link to comment
SwallowAngel Posted September 22, 2023 Share Posted September 22, 2023 (edited) On 9/21/2023 at 4:55 PM, SL58654号 said: Here's another question: when did and why did Japanese locomotive numberplates (particularly on the earlier imported types) have "Type" written in English before the class number until they had the kanji in its place? Welp here goes nothing... So basically it depends on the manufacturer and origin of the locomotive. From what I could find, domestic-built locomotives always featured the Kanji for "Type". For example JGR 8722, built by Kisha Seizo in 1913, features Kanji on the number plate. Additionally, for the Renumbering Scheme in 1909, new plates had to be cast for existing locomotives. One such locomotive was JGR 1801 (formerly No.40), currently preserved at Umekouji. And while the locomotive isn't wearing them at the moment, they are featured on the number plate wall in the museum (See below, pictures taken in May 2023 by yours truly :D) (Whole wall) (Zoomed in) An exception I could find though is the JGR 4110 Class though. As seen here in this grainy picture during JGR times and here during its service at Mitsubishi Mining, the front number plate does read "Type", despite being built at Kawasaki in 1914. Though I have no proof of this, I think this was done stay consistent with the 4100 class, as the 4100's were heavily based off of them, so it might be a exception (again, pure speculation though...). Imported locomotives are significantly more confusing though. Just like @Kamome mentioned, it is somewhat pointless to design the plates with Kanji in western countries. Especially for smaller batches it's significantly simpler to just spell out "Type" rather than learn a whole new writing system. A good example is the JGR 4100 class: Built by J.A. Maffei in Germany, they featured "Type" on their number plates, as seen here (hard to make out) and on @SL58654号's link. However some foreign manufacturers did actually go to the effort of designing plates with Kanji. JGR 9856, built in Germany by Henschel in 1912 and preserved at Saitama, features Kanji as seen here. Despite looking, I didn't find any other examples (with legible photos) of similar cases though. It is important to note though that around this time the practice of importing locomotives did come to an end. As a result, a decrease in examples is somewhat plausible. So the end of "Type" being spelled out on number plates most likely ended with the import of locomotives So TL;DR: Domestic locomotives generally had Kanji, though exceptions do exist Not all, but some foreign manufacturers did use Kanji, but this wasn't given. Some just spelled out "Type" With the end of locomotive imports, the number plates lost their "Type" spelling as well, due to domestic manufacturers using Kanji Again though, I am no expert, any corrections are welcome and appreciated Edited September 22, 2023 by SwallowAngel 3 Link to comment
SL58654号 Posted September 26, 2023 Author Share Posted September 26, 2023 (edited) What's more, in the 1909 JGR numbering scheme, when all the old imported classes were inherited, why were such large swaths of numbers skipped? For instance Class 900 (Schenectady, 1898) had 26 members, but the next sequential class started at 950 (Baldwin, 1895). Edited September 26, 2023 by SL58654号 Link to comment
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