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What Advice Would You Give to a New (young) Modeler in Europe?


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Some friends from Germany recently visited our home (in Canada), and it looks like I generated some interest in model trains! My n scale layout, with a mix of Japanese, European, and North American trains was a hit with the kids, particularly the young 5 year old boy (or maybe he is 6?), but also the 7 year old daughter. The young boy in particular enthusiastically asked to return to the layout several times during the day to run some trains and have some fun. Their dad was curious if their son would still be interested a few months down the road, or forget and move onto another interest (as he often does), but was very open to getting their kids some trains sometime after they return home.


So I started sharing the general information about what track and trains costs, where to get them, etc., but my frame of reference is n scale and everything I have is Tomix or Kato from Japan (I do also have some North American rolling stock from other manufacturers). I definitely think that's the cheapest way to get into n scale, even with possibly import tariffs in Europe. But he quite reasonably felt that "we would want European trains because we are in Europe" and they'll be able to get them at local hobby shops where they live. I mean, I know a lot about the things I'm interested in and have already researched, but this moves me outside of my wheelhouse. So I started to think what might make sense for young kids starting in the hobby in Germany, and I'd love input from other forum members, especially those living in Europe?


Which Scale, N or HO?

  • It sounds like they have some space available, but their dad kind of liked the idea of the more compact n scale layout since you get to have more trains and track in the same space. I'd generally be inclined to agree... but...
  • It just seems to me that HO scale trains are far more popular in Europe. I mean, they are here too, and just on product availability I'd guess HO scale is twice as popular as N scale here, but my impression is almost that the ratio is even higher in Europe in favour of HO scale? Maybe I'm wrong.
  • HO scale would just be easier to handle for kids probably, or at maybe I say that just because all the toy trains when I was young were HO scale (and could take some abuse)
  • The N scale products I've seen (mostly looking at high speed trains) don't seem to be great value from the European manufacturers. My perception is HO scale has more value options available
  • They probably have a better chance of picking up a decent budget starter set at their local hobby shop in HO scale. (I don't really even see much in N scale starter sets on Modellbahnshoppe-lippe). And thinking about second hand market, they probably have a better chance of finding deals in HO scale.
  • So what would you suggest?

DC or DCC?

  • DCC seems to be dominant in Europe, maybe more so than North America? It's hard to gauge from far away just visiting enthusiast sites and looking at products on the market, and then trying to translate that into what a typical entry-level / beginner mind set should be in that regard.
  • Personally, I run DC and wouldn't see enough benefit from DCC to justify the added cost, so my DCC knowledge is weak and I am partial towards recommending DC for simplicity.
  • DCC is more expensive
  • DCC has cool features for the advanced users, but I'm not sure how valuable it is in the beginning. I used to think it would make wiring so much easier, and avoid block control, but have since learned about all the drops, bus wiring, isolating frogs at turnouts, etc. that seems to be necessary with (mostly larger and more complex) DCC layouts.
  • What would you suggest?

Anything else to consider?


At the moment, I'm inclined to suggest HO scale, and DC power. So in absence of advice to the contrary, that's what I would suggest, but the picture could be quite different in Europe, so I'd love to hear what you all think. Any and all advice I can pass along would be appreciated so I can help indoctrinate the next generation of model train enthusiasts and spread the joy far and wide! They'll be stopping at our house again for a visit towards the end of their trip in 2 weeks, so I have some time to gather intelligence! Thanks in advance!


Edited by James-SNMB
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N scale is well represented in Europe. H0 is bigger but you can find plenty of N scale.  Minitrix (Trix), and Fleischmann are N scale manufacturers (Trix itself is H0 and some stuff is now labeled just Trix I think but for a long while Minitrix was the N scale line).  Trix is the H0 line.  (And is owned by Märklin now but is the standard 2 track DC and not their 3 track AC that Mårklin uses).   Fleischmann does H0 under Roco if I understand it correctly.  Arnold, now owned by Hornby, is a German N scale manufacturer.  So N is well represented in Germany even if H0 is more popular.


DC is easy to start with though you find most locomotives in Europe now have DCC upgrade sockets or are even DCC by default and run in DC with a bypass insert or through a DC compatibility mode.  I prefer DCC but for kids getting started DC works well and can easily be upgraded.  Of course, Minitrix and Fleischmann sell DCC starter kits with a train, track, and basic command station in one box.


For example:






(I've bought a lot of Lippe and there are a lot of online train sources in Germany/Europe plus their local model shops).


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9 hours ago, MeTheSwede said:

As much as I like N-scale, for that age range I think L-gauge, i.e. Lego trains, are the best.


Depends on who is the one pushing for it - dad, or kids, and the kids will only be that age for a short while...  I started to buy non Tomica PLARAIL trains when my daughter was 9 and my son 14,  I could have started a little earlier but didn't really have the resources.


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My kid is fine playing in N with me. I don't see the issue. She chooses the trains we run and I let her play with the controller. The only thing, is they still lack fine motor skills to put trains on the tracks. You have to help them with that. But that won't be an issue for long, dexterity comes quickly when they learn how to write; or so I have been told. I started getting trains for her when she was around 4; I bought her few Tomytec but we play with her trains and mine.

Maybe, the question could be what kind of trains the kid would like to play with. If he is into slick HST, Thomas, colorful trains, etc. I personally think Japanese N is the most open kid-friendly. European models cost an arm and a leg, are not always of good quality, and usually cater to the nostalgia of the dying boomer generation. On the contrary, Japanese N is much more affordable, of better quality though perhaps lesser detailed, and you can have fun trains: like the Hello Kitty 500 Series, the Disney Shinkansens and many others.

As for a starter set, maybe the Kato with the ICE4 would be a good beginning. The kid might want a train he knows and that's a cool one.

Edited by disturbman
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1 hour ago, chadbag said:


Depends on who is the one pushing for it - dad, or kids, and the kids will only be that age for a short while...




I stayed in the lego train age for 30 years... (on and off)


Obviously I don't know anything about the family and circumstances except from what I read in the initial post, but from what I understood it seemed to be a kids interest rather than a dad's interest. If the dad wants to own some N-scale trains which he can let his kids join him in playing with I'm all for that. But if it's something for a 6 year old to play with on his own or with similar aged friends or sister... even besides the issues of rolling stock and tracks not really being made for the sometimes rough handling that can be expected from a 6 year old, I think there is more play value for him in lego trains.


But then again, what do I know. Maybe he hates lego and or would never touch a brick. Or maybe he likes it too much, and there would be lego tracks all over the floors all the time. 😆

Edited by MeTheSwede
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Pla rail is a very good entry drug, er I mean train, for young ones. Very robust and with some training they can do it by themselves as well.


also depends how much parents want to be involved, ho or n they will need to be around during play and things put away when not in use most likely. I’ve had friends kids and grand nephew play with my N scale trains a lot. My grand nephew was putting steam engines on the track by age 5. I would let him play by himself and just be in the room when he wanted to be a big kid doing it by himself. He is a very precocious kid. Another friend’s daughter age 7 built a large T gauge layout (I had a pile of track) one evening when I got it out at their house. Within 5 minutes she was putting track down and cars onto the track and then even cleaning the track in jumpy spots. So it also just depends on how much focus the kid has and willingness to work with them to get started and watching progress and pulling back and letting them go.

Plarail could stay out in a play area as you can step on the stuff! Simple and easy and hopefully not horribly priced in the uk. You can usually find tons of used track on ebay here in the states as it lasts and last. One of our club members said all his kids plarail (bought new) after a number of years with his kids then went trough like 3 other families he knew of handing it off for a number of years with each!


you can also do arts and crafts with the plarail by painting the trains with water soluble paints to do your own wrappings and make houses out of boxes and cardboard and paint them up. by doing crafts with the trains it may broaden the experience more for them and make it stick better and just better for their brains as well!

Doing any HO or N scale scenery will not be something for younger kids.


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being German and a railway modeller I might be qualified to ad a comment :-)!  I myself was started in the hobby with a Fleischmann HO Starter Set back in 1972 in the age of 5. As far as I remember, I had no motorical problems with the size of the trains. 50 years ago, N-scale was not that common, so my uncle, who gave us the set, didn't actually have to think a lot about the different scales.


Germany is devided, the estern part (former GDR behind the iron curtain) is DC country, while in the western part Märklin is still dominant. Probably, with the rise of Piko (the traditional eastern manufacturer) things are shifting a little bit towards DC even in the west. 


For a 6 - 7 year old I would suggest an analogue Piko starter set. They have quite attractive trains for a youngster, with modern engines, ICE high speed trains and ballasted tracks. The prices are still affordable in the below 200 EUR range for a complete set. Märklin is not bad for sure, but DC is simply more flexible, if it turns out that the kids will remain in the hobby. With Märklin you're hooked to their system of center pick ups and (so called) AC-models of other brands are asking for a sometimes hefty add on on the price. 


If the layout grows and digital/DCC comes in mind, you can easily refit the analogue models by simply plugging decoders in and convert the whole thing to digital operation.





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Thanks for all of the replies so far! This forum is such a great host to people from all over the world with different perspectives and a common interest. (It really is the best!)


Some more (mostly useless) background on myself:  I love researching products and knowing what's out there, so I gathered a pretty comprehensive mental database of what is out there, and what has previously been available, for n scale HST's and buildings. Those are my two main areas of interest, but everything outside of that is a blindspot.


I have to somehow account for the the n scale Japanese bias that we are all going to share, but there's no denying the unmatched value and quality of this path.


Still, people like what they like (and kids like everything!), so it's understandable the kids (and dad) might be more drawn to their local trains and what they can see and touch at their local hobby shops.


20 hours ago, disturbman said:

European models cost an arm and a leg, are not always of good quality

Unfortunately, my research has lead me to conclude the same for European n scale and personally I've not yet picked up any Fleischmann or Arnold ICEs as a result (I still might though, it's not a firm rejection, just better places I can spend my money right now). And having gone through the extensive Modellbahnshop-lippe website, the higher prices and (comparatively) limited selection made me think HO scale might be a better recommendation.


But, as you mention @disturbman, there is the Kato ICE starter set at reasonable price: https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/Starters+%26+Sets/Start-Sets+analogue/KATO%2FLemke-K10960/gb/modell_385763.html


But other than that, n scale started sets seem to be in the 300-400 euro range.


Conversely, there are several budget options in HO scale, (thanks @martin67) such as:





And many others too.


DC seems to be the way to start, since all of those starter sets are upgradable to DCC in the future as @chadbag rightly points out. (But that is not totally universal, and I did spy a very inexpensive Joeuf set that did not list a DCC socket, but for the most part it's near universal to have a socket)


On top of that, you've all had some other excellent insights. It depends not just on the age of the kids, but their nature, as to what is within their interests and abilities. And it quickly changes as they grow. I started a mini layout with my oldest daughter when she was 6, and she has had no problem with n scale (She picked a EF81-400 JR Kyushu to have, In case you were curious!) or working on scenery (to her level and interests, of course) and using her imagination to play and plan and dream. Her unitrack layout has a re-rerailer piece she uses to help get things back on track.


But not all kids are like that (I have 3, and they are all different!) and certainly the patience, fine motor skills, gentleness, etc. are not universal at this age.


My sense of the family in question is that their older daughter is very similar to mine, and the son is maybe not quite, but he is still calm, great at following instructions (I told him the speed limit for my trains and he followed it, and didn't handle anything without asking, and was gentle when he did). The daughter even quickly made a building out of a cardboard box out of the recycling, some paper, glue and pencil crayons that she places only layout.


Which is another thing, young kids don't care as much about scale and accuracy, (which is exciting to me because you get to see their imaginations at play).


Regarding some of the other suggestions, @MeTheSwede Lego trains is something I'll bring up. I never think about it, because in my mind it's almost a separate hobby for some reason! I played with Lego, and I played with model trains, but never had any Lego trains. Would be fun, and they already like Lego (as does everyone, right?) just depends on what kind of hobby they want to have.


@cteno4, Plarail didn't cross my mind. They already have Brio trains and tracks, so my personal thought (and why I haven't gone the Plarail route for my kids) is it's a similar to Brio type trains in terms of play, maybe a step towards model trains, but one they might grow through very quickly. I'll think about it some more though, since it seems to be a full scale hobby of its own in Japan.


Really appreciate the input so far, which validates some of my thoughts but also expands on things I hadn't considered. In the end, they have to make their own decisions about what's right for them, but at least I can provide some better guidance on some of the possible options!


(Still open to further input!)

Edited by James-SNMB
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Greetings from Germany!


As a kid I've always wanted a model train layout, however my parents always told me that it's too expensive and isn't a suitable toy 😞


However I do have a couple of recommendations to consider when it comes to starting with model trains:


Being a child I've always been fascinated by the motions of steam locomotives, as they are (imo) more interesting to look at with their mechanical motions (+ being influenced by Thomas the tank engine). As such a candidate in N-gauge for me would be this Fleischmann set: https://www.dm-toys.de/de/produktdetails/Fleischmann_931706.html

Seems to be a good basis for a rural branchline layout and it isn't too ridiculously overpriced compared to other german -n-Gauge


However if you're looking for something more "toy-ish" an interesting option would be a Hornby Starter-Set in 00-Gauge: https://uk.hornby.com/catalogue/train-sets-rolling-stock/train-sets?langPath=hornby-uk&filters[mandatory_filter_by][product_category]=Train Sets&page_id=202&sort_by=8&page=1

While some are more expensive, their trains are decently sturdy, offer decent playability with their relatively large size and are generally more colorful, due to the british loving their ornate liveries.


Something that also *might* be worth considering are the Rokuhan Z-Shortys. Though tiny, they could make for a small and fun layout project in a box. They did release three ICE shells recently, but with the exception of those most of them are japanese trains. However they could be expanded with Märklin Z gauge, though I personally have no experience with any Z-Gauge at all and expansion seems limited to say the least...


Anyhow, I think none of the options mentioned here would make for a bad introduction. It's not really important how you get the kids hooked on the hobby, it's about that you get them hooked. The rest should do itself...

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Just to bounce back on what has been said, I think it's worth discussing some more with the dad to what he is envisioning, if he wants something to do with his kids and always wanted to get into model trains or if he would rather let them/him play on their own too.

Lego is not a bad idea if they just want to upgrade from Brio without going into model trains. Plarail is non-existent in Germany, so I would skip that recommendation. Except if J-scale (@Wolf) wants to try to import some.

If they are more interested in doing what you are doing, then maybe they can go visit their local hobby shop, there are still plenty in Germany, and see what scale and trains strike their fancy. HO Piko is a good idea, Piko is at the moment one of the better European manufacturers in quality, at least in N. But there is also TT, which is a good in between HO and N, though the range of product I think is more limited. It used to be popular in East Germany. You can then mention you can guide them more if they decide to go into N scale.

For N, my own recommendation, would be to go with Kato has Unitrack is indestructible and imo one of the better track system available in Europe. Kato has two European starter sets, one with the Glacier Express and the ICE4 that I already mentioned. However, if they like Shinkansen, Kato is going to release a double starter set with a 3-car E5 and a 3-car E6 and two power-packs.

I personally would not recommend Fleischmann N as their quality record hasn't been the greatest of late, one of our members has received several DOA trains in the past years, and the loco I got from them recently was absolutely not worth the money I paid for it. Same is probably true for Minitrix, they still produce some locos that haven't seen proper cosmetic upgrades, but they have some very cheap battery operated starter sets.

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@SwallowAngel, I forgot about DM Toys, so first of all, thanks for that reminder! And steam is another blind spot for me, so I'll have to add that set as another good budget n scale option for them.


Z scale is cool, but I haven't personally paid attention to it because it's not really much smaller than n scale, and has less product range (although it's a lot more vast than it once was). So it's another blind spot. But I'll do some searching on the z shortys to learn more.

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@disturbman, yes, I should have a chat about what the dad envisions. Truthfully, I don't think it really ever crossed his mind until the kids were playing with my layout (which is very unfinished, and doesn't show the potential of what grown ups can do in the hobby).


I 100% agree with Kato unitrack for n scale. I even recently switched my layout from Atlas flex track to unitrack, and it is, as you say, very durable and allows for easy layout changes, as kids would want to make. And it seems to be available in Europe too. (Although, like here, it's probably still cheaper to order direct from Japan from the big retailers, even with shipping, duty, etc.) I'd almost say unitrack alone makes it worth choosing n scale! There's no better sectional track, IMO. (Yes, HO scale unitrack exists too, I guess.)


Those two Kato starter sets are the ones I spied as well. And they can always buy other trains and track to supplement any starter set in n scale (or any scale).


The Japanese Kato starter sets were actually the first thing I suggested. But the dad figured European was the direction to go. But there's always the future, once they are hooked.


It's so disappointing to hear about the questionable quality of Fleischmann, Minitrix, or Arnold in n scale, and I've also read many of those posts from members. I really wanted an ICE 3 or T, but at twice the price and half the quality of Kato products, I can't do it. Probably best to steer new modellers in other directions too, lest they become frustrated and disappointed.


Kato (or also Tomix if doing Japanese models) for n scale, or go HO scale. That's kind of where I'm narrowing my guidance down to. (Or Lego)

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Also just remembering that Lemke/Hobbytrain are often manufactured by Kato (some or all?) so that expands the offerings of quality European models in n scale, though at a higher price point than Kato. I'll remember that option.

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1 hour ago, disturbman said:

But there is also TT, which is a good in between HO and N, though the range of product I think is more limited. It used to be popular in East Germany

Hornby has been trying to push TT as a "ideal compromise" scale between H0 (and the british 00) and N-Gauge, as it allows for more detail than N-Gauge while still being (relatively) space saving. However as it was only released a few months ago it's still pretty expensive.


This is also compounded by the (rather questionable) decision to exclusively sell TT scale from their online shop and the growing pains of Hornby's TT-Gauge track, which seems to have a production error that results in wonky curve geometry.


However the detail of the TT locomotives seems to be pretty good, in addition to featuring those oh so lovely and colourful british liveries (Like seriously, why couldn't every country have done liveries like that?) 

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4 minutes ago, SwallowAngel said:

However as it was only released a few months ago it's still pretty expensive.

I don't think time will help the price 😉 

As you are probably aware, the choice of TT rolling-stock is rather large in Germany. Having seen a TT layout right next to an HO and a N scale one, I really like the size. It's a good compromise. If I had been a newcomer to model railroading, I would have seriously considered getting into TT.

@James-SNMB I know they are not high-speed trains, but if you are looking for a bit more variety, I heartily recommend Piko multiple-units. They are great models and definitely worth their price. Imo, they are more interesting models than Kato's ET425.

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4 hours ago, SwallowAngel said:

(Like seriously, why couldn't every country have done liveries like that?) 


Because Great Britain was once the richest and most advanced country in the world and could therefore afford (and be expected) to spend a small fortune on using technology and skills other people didn't have on making things look nice. Elsewhere that kind of thing would be, and be seen as, a pointless waste of scarce resources, if it was even possible to do locally.


Those attractive paint colours for example required exotic ingredients from all over the Empire and some very advanced and expensive processing to produce. And as for the cost of retaining entire teams of people with the very specialised artistic skills needed to do the lining and decorated lettering and complex logos...........


The cheaply colourful world we enjoy today is thanks to synthetic paint colourings, spray painting equipment, self adhesive vinyl printing and other innovations that would never have been available in the steam age. While the skills needed to do it the hard old way are lost.

Edited by Beaver
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3 hours ago, James-SNMB said:

There's no better sectional track, IMO.


Besides of Tomix Finetrack of course. 😁



If your friend decides to go down the n-scale route, don't forget to mention the Kato pocket line:



It's very affordable and open wagons are fun because you can put all kinds of stuff in them.


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Unitrak is a bit easier for smaller kids to use and less likely to get joiner broken and if broken a unijoiner can be replaced. I had a box full of Tomix track I use to let my friends kids make little layouts here to run trams on and they had a harder time manipulating the finetrak and a few joiners got broken and thus dead track pieces. Moved them to Unitrak and they handled it a lot easier with the bigger profile and bit easier for them to snap and unsnap.


don’t mean to smoke Unitrak vs finetrack debate, just a practical bit with younger kids. I always got the feeling Kato engineered Unitrak to be treated tough and Tomix it was more for the look and gentler handling.



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51 minutes ago, MeTheSwede said:


Besides of Tomix Finetrack of course. 😁


Haha, oops! Don't want to start any fights! I don't know if anyone else remembers the movie Slapshot, but the quote "I go to box and feel shame" fits here...


No doubt Fine track is another flawless Japanese n scale product from everything I've ever seen or heard, I just kind of forgot about it. So I'll revise my comment to say that the Tomix and Kato track is a solid enough reason to recommend n scale!


@SwallowAngel, @disturbman, TT scale did cross my mind as well, so I'll have to give it some thought and do some digging. Same for the pocket line. Hopper cars are a staple on my daughter's layout (and mine too) with lots of animals and cars and other things going for rides!

Edited by James-SNMB
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On 8/5/2023 at 12:16 PM, James-SNMB said:

Also just remembering that Lemke/Hobbytrain are often manufactured by Kato (some or all?) so that expands the offerings of quality European models in n scale, though at a higher price point than Kato. I'll remember that option.

None of my Hobbytrain/Lemke stuff is made by KATO (just from looking at it -- you'd expect some similarity in construction and materials).  It's all contract out of Korea.


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@chadbag, that's interesting and not at all what I expected! Looks like I'd made some incorrect assumptions before. What do you suppose is the nature of the relationship between Kato and Lemke/Hobbytrain? I do see references to Kato sometimes with these products, and in the case of Lemke at least it's often listed as Kato/Lemke. Looks like Lemke is maybe just the brand/distributor for Kato European models in Europe?


The connection between Kato and Hobbytrain isn't so clear to me now that I look again. Lemke seems to be a company with many brands, including Kato-Lemke, Heljan, Hobbytrain, etc. So perhaps Kato is not involved in the Hobbytrain line? But I do see Kato, Lemke, and Hobbytrain all grouped together at Eurolokshop (https://www.tee-usa.com/store/kato-catalog-locomotives.html), and there's even a reference to Kato in the text on the Hobbysearch listing for the Railjet (https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10966251). Perhaps Kato is the distributor for Hobbytrain in Japan? Kind of a reciprocity thing for their relationship with Lemke? Or are they involved in any way in the design or manufacturing of Hobytrain products I wonder?


Further searching turned up this text on Trovestar "Although the German firm Lemke has partnered with Kato to produce European train models under the brand name Hobbytrain, the N-Scale Plasser & Theurer Duomatic 07-32 Ballast Tampers were not manufactured by Kato." (https://www.trovestar.com/generic/zoom.php?id=146598) So maybe the relationship varies and is model specific.


Regardless, in general, how do you find the quality of your Hobbytrain trains? Is it a worthy option for European n scale vs. Fleischmann, Minitrix, and Arnold? I've pretty much been worn down and decided the next time they do a run of the Railjet, I'll grab it despite the premium price tag, but part of that decision was based on the assumption that they were really made by Kato, which might not be true now...

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8 hours ago, chadbag said:

None of my Hobbytrain/Lemke stuff is made by KATO (just from looking at it -


This. Its not made by Kato.

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Some Hobbytrain sets and locomotives used to be made by Kato, mostly SBB stuff, back in the 90s and perhaps early noughties. But I don't think Kato produces anything for them anymore

HT quality is about par with the other European brands, with failing QC at times, but @Yavianice can expand better on this. He has long experience with Yuro products.

Edited by disturbman
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9 hours ago, James-SNMB said:

@chadbag, that's interesting and not at all what I expected! Looks like I'd made some incorrect assumptions before. What do you suppose is the nature of the relationship between Kato and Lemke/Hobbytrain? I do see references to Kato sometimes with these products, and in the case of Lemke at least it's often listed as Kato/Lemke. Looks like Lemke is maybe just the brand/distributor for Kato European models in Europe?



Ah, so there is that.  Lemke had/has the marketing rights for some KATO stuff like the ICE4 which had a Japanese released version and a Lemke released version.  Lemke also sold the KATO DCC decoders under their name (or Lemke/Kato).  The KATO stuff being marketed by Lemke, that I;ve seen, is all labeled with both names, while the Hobbytrain stuff from Lemke is separate.


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