Converting an E231 to an E531

[Sakuranamiki]

Hi All,

Hopefully this post is in the right place...

I would like to add an E531 to my layout, but at present (due to a new baby) the costs are out of my reach. I do however have access to an E231 and power chassis.

How easy would it be to fudge one out of what I have until I can eventually(!) afford a nice new Kato unit?

 

Thanks in Advance!

[Beaver]

Well apart from paint the obvious difference is that there is a lot more roof equipment on the E531, as with all AC or AC/DC stock compared to DC. Apart from that the bodies are apparently the same. There might be differences under the floor too but these are much less obvious considering models are usually viewed from a 'top of a skyscraper' perspective.

 

So, I think it comes down to how good you are at repainting the body and making/adding the roof equipment.

[Sakuranamiki]

Hi,

Thanks for your reply! That's pretty much what I was hoping. 

I'm pretty much at home with painting. I do the odd commission for club members, be it a repaint or a complete loco build, so bashing the odd bit of bodywork is something that I'm comfortable with.

I will do some research and get on to it. If it's something that I think is possible, I'll post my antics on here.

 

Thanks!

[200系]

@Sakuranamiki,

 

First of all, welcome to this community!

 

That being said, as far as your question is concerned...

 

There are way too many differences between an E531 series and any of the E231 series sub-types to make a halfway decent E531 series out of an existing E231 series model, regardless of the variant you own (which you didn't specify btw😉). The E531 series did indeed incorporate design elements based on the various E231 series sub-types, including elements of the suburban type (1000 and 8000 sub-type) and late commuter type (500 sub-type) cars, as well as the overall structure of the suburban type cars, however, the E531 series is its own entity in every regard, and in no way just an AC/DC compatible version of the E231 series, which makes such a conversion unlikely to succeed, especially in light of, you know, actual E531 series models existing in this world.

 

I get that having to wait before you can get your hands on your favourite model is something a lot of people find difficult in this community, however in my personal opinion it'd recommend you try to be patient and save up for the Kato E531 model, it is one of those models Kato re-releases semi regularly, or perhaps consider trying to sell your E231 series as a way to gain some funds for the E531 series, as I think you'd end up much happier in the long run.

 

Cheers!

 

[Beaver]

Indeed there are many significant detail differences, but the obvious bit from the impressionistic basher's perspective is the colour and all the extra clobber around the pantographs. In any case the wheels are obviously far too far apart on their axles so the model will never look realistic no matter how sophisticated the manufacturing techniques. 

 

Surely having fun bashing something about is a better way to spend your hobby time than sitting around wishing you had more money? Especially since it dosen't stop you going ahead and splashing out if and once you can afford to.

[Socimi]

You can also consider the second-hand market, such as Yahoo auctions.

E531s do ofter appear regularily at affordable prices - many of those even practically new as they never ran a single millimeter on a layout.

 

Here are a few results currently on auction - the auction proxy i'm using is Zenmarket.jp

 

https://zenmarket.jp/it/auction.aspx?itemCode=k1083931717

https://zenmarket.jp/it/auction.aspx?itemCode=m1084185063

https://zenmarket.jp/it/auction.aspx?itemCode=b1084192564

[200系]

2 hours ago, Beaver said:

Indeed there are many significant detail differences, but the obvious bit from the impressionistic basher's perspective is the colour and all the extra clobber around the pantographs. In any case the wheels are obviously far too far apart on their axles so the model will never look realistic no matter how sophisticated the manufacturing techniques. 

 

The problem isn't so much in the details as in the larger overall picture though, as the E531 series design does actually differ in a number of not so insignificant ways even when leaving out some of the finer details.

 

The E531 series was in a lot ways a bridge between the E231 series and E233 series, with certain elements first introduced on the E531 series later being used on the E233 series. As such it is a bit of a hybrid between both series, and though it generally confirms to the overall layout of the suburban type E231 series cars, there are numerous differences between both series, quite a few of them going beyond simple details.

 

For example, the electrical and mechanical equipment of the E531 series is actually based on the E653 series limited express cars as opposed to the E231 series, which means in addition to a different equipment layout and well, equipment, there are a number of visual differences which distinguishes an E531 series car from a similar E231 series car even at first glance.

A good example of this are the bogies, with the E531 series using either the DT71 type (MoHa E530 and MoHa E531 type cars) or TR255 type (SaHa E531 type, SaRo E530 and SaRo E531 type cars) bogies, as opposed to the DT61 (MoHa E230 and MoHa E231 type cars) and TR246 type (SaHa E230, SaHa E231, SaRo E230 and SaRo E231 type cars) bogies used on the E231 series. The DT71 type and TR255 type bogies being based on the bogies used on the E653 series limited express cars, which are of an entirely different design compared to the ones used on the E231 series.

 

Another obvious difference compared to the E231 series is the lowered floor height, with the floor being lowered to 1,130 mm compared to 1,165 mm on the E231 series. While a 35 mm difference may not seem much, it is actually rather noticeable when comparing both series side by side, similar to for example the 183 series compared to the 485 series.

 

Then there's the elephant in the room, the design of the front section and the drivers cab.

First is the overall nose profile of the E531 series compared to the E231 series. While the E231 series cab has a subtle, but rather noticeable, curve when viewed in profile, a feature they inherited from the 209 series, while the E531 series design uses a revised version of this design.  Though the design used for the E531 series also contains a similar curve for the upper section, the lower section has a very noticeable inward curve at the point were the squeezed hem and footplate meet, which is unique to the E531 series. Similarly, the footplate extends quite a bit further on the E231 series when compared to the E531 series. The E531 series uses a high-cab design based on the suburban type E231 series cars, however, the design of the front structure as well as the front cover was significantly revised when compared to their older cousins. The front uses elements of the E231 series 500 sub-type design, with the rounded front cover being replaced by a more rectangular design. The windshield itself is much more compact than the one used on the E231 series 500 sub-type cars, owing to the high-cab structure, and as such looks entirely different in comparison. The E531 series also eliminated the lower tail/headlight cluster entirely, with both the front and taillights being moved to the side of the combined destination/train number display, which in turn was of an enlarged design when compared to the separate destination and train number displays used on the E231 series.

 

Then there are things like the green cars, SaRo E530 and SaRo E531 type cars, which though they are similar to the SaRo E230 and SaRo E231 type cars from a glance, feature a different window layout for the lower deck for example.

 

A good comparison between the E531 series and suburban type E231 series cars (1000/8000 sub-type) can be seen in the second picture below:

 

-> credit: karibajct

 

So in short, similar at a glance, quite different when looking closer.

 

In addition to the aforementioned differences between the E231 series and the E531 series, it is also important to note that there are pretty significant external differences between the various E231 series sub-types as well, especially when it comes to the front design.

 

The original commuter type cars of the E231 series 900 sub-type (which were originally classified as the 209 series 950 sub-type cars) and E231 series 0 sub-type variations, used a low-cab design based on the one introduced by the 209 series 0 sub-type cars as well as the E501 series, combined with the wider carbody introduced by the E217 series. A number of changes were made compared to the 209 series though, with the most visible being the FRP (Fibber Reinforced Plastic) front cover, with the cut-out for the windshield and cab structure raised significantly compared to the 209 series (the actual structure itself is very similar though). The cover would still use the same basic shape as the one used on the 209 series though, with both the top and bottom sections featuring rounded edges.

 

->E231 series 0 sub-type formation B-17 at Yoyogi station. Note the low-cab structure, rounded edges of the front cover (with the actual cab structure being visible below the windshield) and combined head/taillight cluster. (author)

 

The design of the suburban type cars of the E231 series 1000 sub-type and 8000 sub-type variety would be based on the commuter type design, not surprisingly as both were developed in tandem and would be introduced at roughly the same time, though they would feature a number of changes which were necessary for suburban operations.

In order to provide more protection to the crew in case of an accident, the suburban type cars would feature a high cab design. As a result though the suburban type would use more or less the same front design as the commuter type cars, the high cab meant the drivers stand partially obstructs the lower part of the windscreen, giving the front a somewhat different impression depending on the angle. Another noticeable change is the position of the headlights, as the headlights themselves would be changed to HID (High Intensity Discharge) type lamps, with the headlights located next to the front destination display instead of the head/taillight cluster mounted directly above the forward footplate on the commuter type cars. This change wouldn't affect the taillights though, with the taillights taking the place of the head/taillight cluster mentioned above (they use a slightly different mounting and type though). They also lack the train number display present on the suburban type cars.

 

Similarly, in addition to the high cab design I mentioned before, the cab structure itself is similar to the E217 series, as in it uses an extended cab design. This means the cab is separated into two zones, the crew compartment which is designed in such a way that it retains its shape as best as possible in case of a collision forming a survival zone, and a crumple zone which is designed to absorb the energy caused by the impact. This can be easily recognized when viewed from the side, as the crew compartment contains a sliding side window, while the crumple zone starts at the crew door and continues for a short section prior to the bulkhead separating the crew cabin and passenger compartment. Of course, the use of an extended cab also results in changes to the overall layout of the KuHa E230 type 6000/8000 sub-type and KuHa E231 type 6000/8000 sub-type cars, with the forward passenger door located further aft, and the passenger section between the first and second door being shortened, resulting in a narrow window being used for this section.

 

-> E231 series 1000 sub-type formation U514 approaching Tōkyō station. Though not my best picture but please notice the overall similarity between the 0 sub-type and 1000 sub-type cars when it comes to the design of the front cover. Equally noticeable though are the differences, with the raised cab structure clearly visible as well as the raised headlights and lower taillight cluster. Similarly, the extended cab is clearly visible as well. (author)

 

The E231 series 500 sub-type cars, though largely similar to the earlier commuter type cars, would introduce further changes to the E231 series design, resulting in a rather different visage compared to their older sisters. Like the 900 and 0 sub-type cars, the 500 sub-type cars would feature a low-cab design, though with a revised FRP cover design. The rounded edges on the lower part of the windshield cover would be eliminated in favour of a more angular design, while the head/taillight cluster would receive a makeover in the shape of a stylised cover. Like the 900 and 0 sub-type cars, they would feature a more traditional (short) cab design, and as such feature a more or less identical side layout as their older sisters. The SaHa E231 type 4600/600 sub-type cars ordered to replace the 6-door SaHa E230 type cars in 2011 do deserve a special mention here, as they differed significantly from their sisters being based on the E233 series design.

 

-> E231 series 500 sub-type formation Tō 516 arriving at Akihabara station. Note the different windshield/cover design as well as the revised head/taillight cluster. (author)

 

As such, none of the available E231 series models actually provides a good basis for the conversion you have in mind, the E531 series takes elements of all of them, while introducing its own design elements in such a way that there is no good match with any of them.

 

And while I would agree that the points I mention in the above section may be regarded as (minor) details to some, which would be fair in my opinion, to me the individual difference between these series, as well as the differences between their sub-types is probably comparable to the way other view having the correct (scale) wheel/track gauge on their models as the most important aspect of this hobby, it's nothing more than my own standards which I apply to this hobby, standards I don't necessarily expect other to follow. As such if someone, whether this is the thread starter or someone else, really wants to perform such a conversion for whatever reason that is entirely up to them, and I don't see any reason why my answer should dissuade them if that is what they want. However, as @Sakuranamiki asked for advice, this is the advice I can give taking into account my knowledge of the series in question, nothing more, nothing less.

 

3 hours ago, Beaver said:

Surely having fun bashing something about is a better way to spend your hobby time than sitting around wishing you had more money? Especially since it dosen't stop you going ahead and splashing out if and once you can afford to.

 

I would argue that this is entirely dependent on personal preferences. While the above is most certainly valid for some, especially in subjects which aren't represented all that well by the larger manufacturers, it doesn't work for everyone, especially in a case like this were there is a high-quality (wrong track gauge aside🙄) ready to run model available. As the thread starter didn't mention wanting to do this project to hone their skills or to spend valuable hobby time, but rather wanting a specific model while not having the finances, at the moment, to acquire said model now, I suspect the motivation behind said project may be a little different than the above.

 

Conversely to your statement, you could also argue that a bit of patience saves you a lot of time and money, because you'll most certainly need to order additional parts if you want a halfway decent conversion, spend on converting a model which doesn't really form a good basis for the model you want into said prototype which most likely won't be as good as the ready to run model, while also potentially destroying a model you might later regret.

 

Like I said though, it is of course not up to me to decide for you, and that wasn't my intention in the first place, however, I do personally think it is worthwhile to at least take the above mentioned factors into account.

 

Cheers!

 

[Beaver]

You have clearly given this a great deal of thought and your detailed observations of the prototype are most interesting.

 

I do rather like this general style of body because the tumblehome sides and rounded corners on windows and doors evoke the feel of some of the classic British wooden carriages of the panel-and-beading type, giving it a certain elegance and grace which is rare in modern conventional railway stock.

 

The point about destroying the value of an existing model is well made. Most people use cheaper Tomytec or old 'junk' models as a basis for conversions for this very reason, me included. Though there are some crazy things like people cutting and shutting brand new Kato body shells to make shorties where Bandai hadn't provided a kit!

 

To be honest in this situation I would also save up/trade for the E531 and spend the time waiting for it building the layout or making buildings etc for said layout. If the desired EMU were some obscure rare type rarely or never commercially produced it would be different, but this is modern JR-E Tokyo Area stock - a cash cow for the model companies.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Beaver

[Sakuranamiki]

Thanks all. I will concede that an awful lot of work would need to be done to convert the 231 to a 531, so I think I will save my pennies and hold out for one when one is available!

Looking at the E231 that I have, it would be a shame to carve it up, and you're right - it could be a good trading chip towards the E531.

 

Cheers all!