The end of SL Hitoyoshi

[Kiha66]

JR Kyushu has announced that their 8620 SL will be retired due to the growing cost of repairs and difficulty sourcing parts for the now 100 year old locomotive.  2023 is expected to be the final year of operation. 

 

https://tetsudo-ch.com/12793433.html

Edited October 24, 2022 by Kiha66

[lighthouse]

Noooo! I wanted to take a ride of this train in the next three years... but 2023 it is impossible for me to flight to Japan at the moment... 😭

Edited October 24, 2022 by lighthouse

[katoftw]

If they (JRK) cannot get engineers to make/machine parts. Then I doubt there will be and SL replacement.

 

Probably the death knell for the Hisatsu Line.

Edited October 24, 2022 by katoftw

[SL58654号]

19 hours ago, katoftw said:

If they (JRK) cannot get engineers to make/machine parts. Then I doubt there will be and SL replacement.

 

Probably the death knell for the Hisatsu Line.

I think things could be worse. There's still much deliberation over the restoration of the Hisatsu Line, and the prefectural government is still determined to bring it back for the sake of tourism and aiding declining population, and I think if JR Kyushu wants to encourage more tourists to use it then they may try to obtain another SL with the help of other railways elsewhere in Japan. Time will tell.

[JR East]

20 hours ago, katoftw said:

If they (JRK) cannot get engineers to make/machine parts. Then I doubt there will be and SL replacement.

 

Probably the death knell for the Hisatsu Line.

 

It's more complicated that "engineers making parts"

 

I've been involved during 10 years in a French steam trains preservation association. We were facing several kinds of issues: 

 

• original drawing (/ copy of) or wooden shapes: when it comes to rebuilding a part, you need either the plans / drawings as making measurements on a used part is not the best way to proceed or wooden shape (eg for giving the foundry to mold it). unfortunately, they were either lost in time or sometimes never delivered with the original locomotive or wagon / car. 
• workshop tools & subcontracting companies: not all the association workshop have also preserved tools for the rolling stock maintenance. Esp. when it comes to non-standard gauges (eg narrow gauge). Some are completely irrealistic to do internally (eg railway tyre) and difficult to subcontract with an affordable price (when the total budget of the year is close to 200 K€). Believe me, finding a company in France, able to make a railway tyre for a 60 cm gauge steam locomotive, it's challenging. That also the reason why some association are subcontractors for others in one particular speciality (for example, AMTP sent one locomotive to the Trains des Cevennes association for a particular operation we were not able to do)
• Internal knowledge: the older the rolling stock is, the more difficult it is esp. if you rely on volunteers. If you've more budget, you can have employees but if the knowledge is not retained (pictures, drawing, way of working, etc ....), then you loose it. For example, I was trained to make a fuse plug but if nobody explains, then you can make a big mistake and endanger the people in the steam locomotive. 

Here are some examples I have in mind. 

[katoftw]

53 minutes ago, JR East said:

 

It's more complicated that "engineers making parts"

 

I've been involved during 10 years in a French steam trains preservation association. We were facing several kinds of issues: 

 

• original drawing (/ copy of) or wooden shapes: when it comes to rebuilding a part, you need either the plans / drawings as making measurements on a used part is not the best way to proceed or wooden shape (eg for giving the foundry to mold it). unfortunately, they were either lost in time or sometimes never delivered with the original locomotive or wagon / car. 
• workshop tools & subcontracting companies: not all the association workshop have also preserved tools for the rolling stock maintenance. Esp. when it comes to non-standard gauges (eg narrow gauge). Some are completely irrealistic to do internally (eg railway tyre) and difficult to subcontract with an affordable price (when the total budget of the year is close to 200 K€). Believe me, finding a company in France, able to make a railway tyre for a 60 cm gauge steam locomotive, it's challenging. That also the reason why some association are subcontractors for others in one particular speciality (for example, AMTP sent one locomotive to the Trains des Cevennes association for a particular operation we were not able to do)
• Internal knowledge: the older the rolling stock is, the more difficult it is esp. if you rely on volunteers. If you've more budget, you can have employees but if the knowledge is not retained (pictures, drawing, way of working, etc ....), then you loose it. For example, I was trained to make a fuse plug but if nobody explains, then you can make a big mistake and endanger the people in the steam locomotive. 

Here are some examples I have in mind. 

"Engineers making parts" encompasses all that you type, in a simplified way.

Edited October 25, 2022 by katoftw

[katoftw]

1 hour ago, SL58654Gō said:

I think things could be worse. There's still much deliberation over the restoration of the Hisatsu Line, and the prefectural government is still determined to bring it back for the sake of tourism and aiding declining population, and I think if JR Kyushu wants to encourage more tourists to use it then they may try to obtain another SL with the help of other railways elsewhere in Japan. Time will tell.

No SL and no Hisatsu Line. Dunno how it could be worse.

 

They way I see it. If JRK weren't willing to send the current SL to Kyoto for repairs. They I doubt they'd get a replacement. As it also would need to go to Kyoto for repairs.

[JR East]

1 hour ago, katoftw said:

"Engineers making parts" encompasses all that you type, in a simplified way.

You're right @katoftw, I did it also to share with other members not familiar with the topics you're also familiar with. 

 

When I was a volunteers at this AMTP association, I was frequently facing the same recurring questions from visitors : why don't you do this ? why don't you do that ? etc ... but (of course) they did not realize that it's not only a matter of money where - to some extend - is frequently the "most simple topic" (despite it can be a showstopper).

 

 

[SL58654号]

2 hours ago, katoftw said:

No SL and no Hisatsu Line. Dunno how it could be worse.

 

They way I see it. If JRK weren't willing to send the current SL to Kyoto for repairs. They I doubt they'd get a replacement. As it also would need to go to Kyoto for repairs.

 

2 hours ago, katoftw said:

No SL and no Hisatsu Line. Dunno how it could be worse.

 

They way I see it. If JRK weren't willing to send the current SL to Kyoto for repairs. They I doubt they'd get a replacement. As it also would need to go to Kyoto for repairs.

What I meant was, they could've already abolished the Hisatsu Line outright and be done with it. 

[Yugamu Tsuki]

I'm sorry to hear this. I was wanting to see SL Hitoyoshi in action but next trip is planned for the end of 2024. Still will keep wishful thinking.

[Aleks]

Looks like the actual retirement is coming next month, I think March 24 2024 might be the last day in service. I will be close a few days prior and checked yesterday if tickets are available... unfortunately sold out. I might still go just to take a look at the train on one of the days it will be running.

[lighthouse]

There are many steam locomotive repair shops around the world, Meiningen in Germany and PIŁA in Poland come to mind. With today's globalization, wouldn't it be possible to have special parts made there? It's a shame that SL Hitoyoshi is coming to an end.

[Aleks]

Yes indeed. Hard to say what practical issues they have, I think there are also plenty of steam locos doing tourist runs around the world.

 

The link to JR Kyushu page, looks like no runs after March 23 (when the train will actually come to Fukuoka for a few hours). 

 

https://www.jrkyushu.co.jp/english/train/sl.html

[katoftw]

Yup the specifics behind the lack of repairs were never mentioned. Japan has the abilities and companies internally fix and rebuild these steam locos. So no need to go overseas for parts.

 

Someone in the boardroom has just made a financial decision based on costs versus rewards.

 

Hopefully the pull a C11 from somewhere and rebuild it. Lots of companies running C11s nowadays. So lots of collaborations can be had.

[SL58654号]

7 hours ago, katoftw said:

Yup the specifics behind the lack of repairs were never mentioned. Japan has the abilities and companies internally fix and rebuild these steam locos. So no need to go overseas for parts.

 

Someone in the boardroom has just made a financial decision based on costs versus rewards.

 

Hopefully the pull a C11 from somewhere and rebuild it. Lots of companies running C11s nowadays. So lots of collaborations can be had.

You're right. It is my belief that the destruction of the Hisatsu Line was an incentive to discontinue the SL Hitoyoshi, also. The journey north to Tosu isn't nearly as grand and exciting, I'd say. 

But, indeed there's no reason they couldn't fully restore 58654 if the time came again. 
Firstly, we'll do our best to have the Hisatsu Line return, then the SL...

[ED75-775]

It would be great to see SL Hitoyoshi return one day, I very much enjoyed my trip on it in 2023! Admittedly I'm a bit sad I didn't get to ride the northbound leg with 58654 doing all the work, but I did get to see it running and hey, it's not every day one gets to ride behind a DE10.

 

I would agree with @katoftw that this was most likely primarily a boardroom decision; the locomotive, despite some major new parts (boiler and driving wheels in 1988, frames in 2007) is getting older, staff with the ability to maintain it are not as common, and it's running on a route which lacks the scenic charm of the original, which both I and Mason can attest to. Admittedly, maintenance staff can be trained as the Tobu Railway has proven with the restoration of Ebetsu Railway C11-1 (C11-123), and as kato has pointed out, Kyoto Railway Museum has 8630 in running order so there's the potential you could do runs of parts for both 8630 and 58654 which helps to reduce the costs.

 

Of course, there could be other factors in the background that we don't know about. Personally, if JR Kyushu is bent on retiring 58654 and decides to run a different locomotive if the train was to ever come back, and on the Hisatsu Line to boot, I'd say D51 170 might be a good contender. It has pedigree on that line (having worked on it up until retirement), has been preserved undercover (in the same building that also housed 58654 post-JNR retirement) plus with so many D51s preserved across Japan, parts wouldn't be as hard to come by. Then again, it's also a larger locomotive and can you really justify all that horsepower for just three coaches? A C11 might be better sized for that job, although I don't know how suitable they would be for that length of run.

 

Best case scenario - 58654 goes into secure dry storage and gets an overhaul when @SL58654号 and the team from Hisatsu-sen Again succeed in lobbying for the Hisatsu Line to reopen for regular use. And I'm in full agreement with Mason; we can but hope!

 

Alastair

[lighthouse]

It may be that JR Hokkaido can borrow a C11 again. Now that the C11 207 has returned from the Tobu Railway, could this surplus locomotive be used? "SL Winter Wetland" does not need 2 locomotives of the C11 type... Unless I haven't heard anything in the media yet, JR Hokkaido has other plans with C11 207...

 

[SL58654号]

1 hour ago, ED75-775 said:

It would be great to see SL Hitoyoshi return one day, I very much enjoyed my trip on it in 2023! Admittedly I'm a bit sad I didn't get to ride the northbound leg with 58654 doing all the work, but I did get to see it running and hey, it's not every day one gets to ride behind a DE10.

 

I would agree with @katoftw that this was most likely primarily a boardroom decision; the locomotive, despite some major new parts (boiler and driving wheels in 1988, frames in 2007) is getting older, staff with the ability to maintain it are not as common, and it's running on a route which lacks the scenic charm of the original, which both I and Mason can attest to. Admittedly, maintenance staff can be trained as the Tobu Railway has proven with the restoration of Ebetsu Railway C11-1 (C11-123), and as kato has pointed out, Kyoto Railway Museum has 8630 in running order so there's the potential you could do runs of parts for both 8630 and 58654 which helps to reduce the costs.

 

Of course, there could be other factors in the background that we don't know about. Personally, if JR Kyushu is bent on retiring 58654 and decides to run a different locomotive if the train was to ever come back, and on the Hisatsu Line to boot, I'd say D51 170 might be a good contender. It has pedigree on that line (having worked on it up until retirement), has been preserved undercover (in the same building that also housed 58654 post-JNR retirement) plus with so many D51s preserved across Japan, parts wouldn't be as hard to come by. Then again, it's also a larger locomotive and can you really justify all that horsepower for just three coaches? A C11 might be better sized for that job, although I don't know how suitable they would be for that length of run.

 

Best case scenario - 58654 goes into secure dry storage and gets an overhaul when @SL58654号 and the team from Hisatsu-sen Again succeed in lobbying for the Hisatsu Line to reopen for regular use. And I'm in full agreement with Mason; we can but hope!

 

Alastair

Yes, @ED75-775 we can but hope! Nobody would stand for the Hisatsu Line being abolished. And everyone knows the SL Hitoyoshi was the bread and butter of bringing visitors and commerce to the town of Hitoyoshi, which I also have personal attachments to.
I never would have guessed, that I, as a foreigner who simply loves trains, would ever have gotten to enjoy the line and its trains so much myself before that awful flood, then unexpectedly meet and befriend the citizens group to restore the line and help them. It's an adventure that I'm so grateful to be a part of, and I shan't rest till we achieve that goal. I can hardly wait till I finish my layout as my friends have agreed to help me carry it to our next 肥薩線again exhibit in public! I want it to bring smiles and nostalgia to both young and old and greatly raise voices calling for its restoration. 

For now, rest well 58654... You won't be forgotten.