E5 & H5 Series Shinkansen: Tomix vs Kato

[gavino200]

4 hours ago, Ewan.in.gz said:

I am probably going to go down the DCC rabbit-hole eventually, at least with my non-Shinkansen models, so I'm kinda curious about how much work is involved in converting TOMIX and MicroAce models.

 

I've never converted a MicroAce model. I'm sorry to say I don't actually have any MicroAce models. There's no reason for that other than that they don't tend to cater to my my taste which is admittedly quite crass and basic. I almost always look at the MA new releases and would like to try them out. 

 

I'd echo what Martijn says about Tomix vs. Kato for DCC. Decoder installation isn't as difficult for me as it once was. I barely had a clue what I was doing when I started and it was quite stressful for me. At first I had a strong preference for Kato DCC friendly models, and dreaded doing difficult installs. It was only dogged stubbornness that got me through them. But one by one, I've learned most of the tricks to difficult installs. At this stage some are difficult but pretty much anything is doable. I'm starting to rethink the strong Kato bias I've developed over the years. I still love Kato, but there's no longer a reason to limit myself. 

 

I actually want to get away from using the EM13 decoder. It's quite basic and it doesn't have RailCom which I'm interested in playing with. For my next few DCC-friendly Kato installs I'll be using a custom board developed by @chadbag and a few others that allows you con fit a D&H decoder into the EM13 slot on a Kato DCC friendly motor unit. 

 

Decoder installs are very individual. Sometimes I do wire directly to the motor contacts. That was once scary but isn't anymore. We've actually created a database here of decoder installs. We have guides for many difficult installs. If you have an install that's not included and difficult, just start a thread and you're sure to get the assistance you need. In fact that's how I found this site and got introduced to the wonder of Japanese trains in the first place. 

 

What I was mentioning about some Kato nonfriendly steam train models is quite subtle. I actually converted a C62 twice before I noticed it. They have left some small channels that are exactly where they need to be for passing decoder wires. There's even a place for a speaker in the tender. I think they designed it for their custom shop to do conversions easier. I have no idea if Tomix do that. But this is no more than a curiosity. I bet I could convert a Tomix steamer too. Unfortunately I don't have any. You see, I'm a bit cocky. But really that's 90% of what you need to do decoder installs. That, and call for help like a baby when you have trouble. 

 

Having said that, the real advantage of DCC-friendly is time. Doing installs costs me time that could be better used on my layout in so many other ways. For that reason, if Chadbags EM13 piggyback system works for me then Kato DCC-friendly models will remain tempting to me. 

Edited March 7, 2021 by gavino200

[chadbag]

3 hours ago, Ewan.in.gz said:

@gavino200 @chadbag

 

So, I know that most newer Kato models are DCC Friendly, with drop-in provision using EM13, FL12 & FR11 decoders, but just how difficult are modern TOMIX models to convert? Is it simply a case of finding space to fit the decoders and soldering contacts? Or do you need to do things like isolating the motors and trying to squeeze in wring looms like you do with pre-DCC era models?

 

I am probably going to go down the DCC rabbit-hole eventually, at least with my non-Shinkansen models, so I'm kinda curious about how much work is involved in converting TOMIX and MicroAce models.

 

 

Typically there is a small amount of isolation that needs to be done and then a decoder needs to fit and be soldered in.  The one's I've done have not been that hard.  I think they are easier than old school split zinc frame ones.   I've not done one in a while but have a bunch to still do.  

 

Here is the isolation I did on the tomix 500 (Hello Kitty version).  I then attached the motor leads from the decoder to the springs which IIRC feed the motor (reconstructing this from a series of photos I took).  I'd have to go take it apart again to double check.  But it was straight forward.  (There are probably a few write ups on this somewhere in here)

 

[chadbag]

8 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

 

I actually want to get away from using the EM13 decoder. It's quite basic and it doesn't have RailCom which I'm interested in playing with. For my next few DCC-friendly Kato installs I'll be using a custom board developed by @chadbag and a few others that allows you con fit a D&H decoder into the EM13 slot on a Kato DCC friendly motor unit. 

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Having said that, the real advantage of DCC-friendly is time. Doing installs costs me time that could be better used on my layout in so many other ways. For that reason, if Chadbags EM13 piggyback system works for me then Kato will likely always have me hooked, at least for DCC friendly models. 

 

 

Just wanted to give credit where credit is due.  I did not design or do the work for the EM13 board (except to have a bunch made).  The work was done by member Edos2300 (He does not seem to be active currently, unfortunately). 

 

Here is the thread about them:  

 

I've used a dozen or more in trains and have a lot more to actually put together and get installed.  I did hack a board and used a Zimo instead of D&H as a test and am going to try and re-design the board to use the Zimo MX616N which is more readily available in the US.

 

 

 

[Martijn Meerts]

The EM13 piggyback board would definitely make Kato's DCC friendly trains quite interesting, but I think it also depends on which decoder you want to use. For example, the Doehler & Haas decoders have components on 1 side only, which makes them quite flat, but also a bit longer and wider. On the other hand, the ESU Lokpilot Micro 5 is extremely small in length and width, but is fairly thick because it has components on both sides.

 

But actually, that's a problem on European trains with NEM sockets as well. For example, I have several Fleischmann locomotives with a 6-pin NEM 651 socket, and ESU's decoders won't necessarily fit because some of the components on the decoder get in the way of components on the locomotive. I have a feeling they do that on purpose though, since they have their own decoders as well 😉

 

[disturbman]

5 hours ago, Ewan.in.gz said:

RE my original question regarding E5/H5, I might just try one from each and see how I feel, or just go with which one looks best in the flesh next time I'm train shopping in Tokyo. I was just curious to see what people's opinions were of the two, since in the various reviews I've read in the Japanese modeling press, it looked like there were pros and cons to both the TOMIX and Kato offerings.

There definitely are. Both brands made design decisions you might not agree on, like what you described about Tomix's diaphragm blocks on the N700, and I think that's a fair enough rationale to prefer the model of one manufacturer over the other. There is however a tendency for people to irrationally focus, in my opinion, on Kato as the better brand. Which I don't think is deserved. All four manufacturers make wonderful models, and anyone of them can some time drop the ball. One also has to remember that their own preferences, or experience with one brand, is not gospel. And something that someone might find off-putting, might not be an issue for someone else.

Regarding the E5/H5, as I told @gavino200, I wouldn't myself consider the Tomix version because of the reported "banana" issue. I would probably do more digging around to see how widespread the issue is before considering getting one.

[Ewan.in.gz]

Dear All:

 

 

In regards to DCC, whenever I get around to doing something about it, I'll probably do my first couple on Kato DCC Friendly EMUs suing their decoders and see how I like their characteristics. It's going to be interesting learning how to do conversions on TOMIX & MicroAce, but as people have commented, I'll do some research to see how people have handled similar models.

 

As for all the fiddly little bits of modifying N-scale models, that's not really much of an issue to me, as I am already more than happy adding detail parts and doing coupler mods. At least wiring DCC decoders is gonna involve less tiny parts that fly off into space never to be seen again than trying to fir whistles and antennas! I still haven't gotten around to fitting all the spoilers and air dams to my 200 Series Super Yamabiko, but that is more because of the mess that was 2020 for me than because of fear of messing up a lovely model. 😀

 

@disturbman I like the wide blocks on the TOMIX N700 & E5/H5, where it looks to me very much like the streamlined coverings on the real trains. But as I said, I'll take a look at both of them side-by side, either in person in Models Imon or Yodobashi Camera, or by buying one each and seeing them side-by side at home. I was disappointed when Kato redesigned their N700A to remove the full width diaphragms....

 

I'd much rather have the TOMIX 200 Series or E1 Max, even if there is something I think is an aesthetic shortcoming, than to not have them at all!

 

And as I said, even though I don't yet have a particularly large number of TOMIX models, I am more than happy with the ones I've got so far! I am definitely going to be buying more in future.... I'm planning to get at least TOMIX 200 Series Renewal, 400 Series, E1 Max, TWR 70-000 Series, several more Tobu Spacia (I have the Sunny Coral Orange Colour and I really want the Nikko Moude, Miyabi & Iki Colour sets too!), Odakyu VSE & probably a lot of KoKis & TaKis.....

 

One day, I'm probably going to have to buy a villa to house my model railway..... 🤣

[Martijn Meerts]

On 3/8/2021 at 12:03 PM, Ewan.in.gz said:

One day, I'm probably going to have to buy a villa to house my model railway..... 🤣

 

Yep, and 2 years later you have to buy a 2nd villa, because all the extra space in the first one just meant getting even more trains 😄

 

 

DCC installs aren't that bad. If you're a bit skilled with a soldering iron, you're pretty much set. The first few will be a bit of a learning curve, but it gets easier.

 

[Ewan.in.gz]

19 hours ago, Martijn Meerts said:

 

Yep, and 2 years later you have to buy a 2nd villa, because all the extra space in the first one just meant getting even more trains 😄

 

 

DCC installs aren't that bad. If you're a bit skilled with a soldering iron, you're pretty much set. The first few will be a bit of a learning curve, but it gets easier.

 

 

Hehehe.... A barn to fit an N-scale model of Tokyo.....

 

Yeah, I'll probably start with the easy Kato DCC friendly ones and go from there....

 

At the moment, living in a small apartment in downtown Guangzhou (a giant Chinese megacity with 25 million people), I don't really have much room for a permanent layout, so I'm just building up my fleet....

 

😁

[cteno4]

12 hours ago, Ewan.in.gz said:

Hehehe.... A barn to fit an N-scale model of Tokyo.....

 There were some chaps in texas that were planning a huge modular/sectional layout of tokyo a number of years back. There plans were truly huge!

an acquaintance innthe Seattle area built a house next to his house to just house a very large ho layout and garage and workshop for his 1:1 speeder collection.

 

jeff

[Ewan.in.gz]

@cteno4 Hahaha! All sounds awesome Jeff, but currently just a pipe dream.... At least I can do some virtual mega layouts on my PS4 Pro with A-Trains Express!

 

Ewan