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Clayton

Tomix Door layout

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Clayton

Someone mentioned about my yard size. It is obviously larger than people think. Holding 80 cars is nothing small. This isn't nothing compared to another layout I designed off of my plan.  Here's the two in comparison. 

 

4x8.png

Yard Master.png

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cteno4

Yeah you can never have too much yard space, but it can start to take over the layout!

 

i tested using a thin plank with track mounted in it about a meter long to roll 8 car trains onto off the layout then pick it up and put it on a table or wall rack for storage. Worked well just have to come up with a little system to lock train from rolling and be careful not to tip it! having a motor car helps the roll but it will slide if tipped toward the ends much. Also the idea of vertical yard drawers! Crank the rack of drawers up vertically to the one you want attached to the layout. Then you can also pull each out as a drawer if you want to put trains on and off,
 

At some point you end up with enough trains you just can’t have enough yard track! Also like $30-35 per train for point and track so it starts adding up!

 

cheers

 

jeff

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gavino200
2 hours ago, MoPac said:

Someone mentioned about my yard size. It is obviously larger than people think. Holding 80 cars is nothing small. This isn't nothing compared to another layout I designed off of my plan.  Here's the two in comparison. 

 

 

MoPac, I think you have a good rationale for designing the yard the way you have. You're going to be doing realistic operations with freight train wagons. I think your yard will work great and is probably prototypical. I tend to run passenger trains and often play on the layout with a kid. So I like my yard to be a place to switch out long passenger trains. I don't think your yard is small at all. I was just looking at it through the lens of how I play on my layout. For your freight wagon purpose, I think you're yard will be perfect. And fairly giant to boot. 

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Clayton
15 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

MoPac, I think you have a good rationale for designing the yard the way you have. You're going to be doing realistic operations with freight train wagons. I think your yard will work great and is probably prototypical. I tend to run passenger trains and often play on the layout with a kid. So I like my yard to be a place to switch out long passenger trains. I don't think your yard is small at all. I was just looking at it through the lens of how I play on my layout. For your freight wagon purpose, I think you're yard will be perfect. And fairly giant to boot. 

@gavino200 So which one do you like better the oversize yard or the smaller design? 

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Clayton
2 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Yeah you can never have too much yard space, but it can start to take over the layout!

 

i tested using a thin plank with track mounted in it about a meter long to roll 8 car trains onto off the layout then pick it up and put it on a table or wall rack for storage. Worked well just have to come up with a little system to lock train from rolling and be careful not to tip it! having a motor car helps the roll but it will slide if tipped toward the ends much. Also the idea of vertical yard drawers! Crank the rack of drawers up vertically to the one you want attached to the layout. Then you can also pull each out as a drawer if you want to put trains on and off,
 

At some point you end up with enough trains you just can’t have enough yard track! Also like $30-35 per train for point and track so it starts adding up!

 

cheers

 

jeff

@cteno4 So which one do you like better the massive yard or the smaller one?  Remember I am running freight trains only.

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cteno4

It’s really what you want to do for operations vs storage capacity as well as how much space do you want for scenery. Are you doing Dcc, Tomix power routing or traditional block wiring for your train control? This matters in how you would operate of having a train running on your big folded figure 8 line it may be difficult to do switching as your main line runs thru the yard areas.

 

thru yards are great but the point ladder at each end takes up a lot of space. they also double the cost, wiring, control complexity etc. your thru yards have some shorter tracks on the outside ones and your main line runs thru the middle of this yard.
 

Stub yards are a little harder to do switching on, but you also can do some fun puzzles for operations and many smaller yards are like this prototypically.

 

Us 60-80s will put you with potentially bigger cars if you go intermodal, piggy back or even some of the 60-80’ cars or do you plan to keep to shorter cars and trains? For intermodal with limited space a stub yard would allow a few tracks to be cemented in with a storage yard on the side for containers. For your time period piggy back was still big and single stack coming in or very early double stack.
 

maybe look at putting two small to medium stub yards at different areas with some scenery separation (like a line of buildings or ridge) so you have a clear visually separated depot A and depot B to move stuff between. Also a couple of industry sidings to drop stuff off at in different places for interesting operations. Having the stub yards with a leader track (hard to get space though) can let you do switching in the yard while a train is running in the main line if you do DCC or traditional block wiring and 2 throttles.

 

have you done any layouts before? If so what did you like and hate from their plans? If you haven’t played with trains much on a layout like this the I would encourage you to get a Start on your track pile and some of the points and just mock up sections of this layout and play for a while and just fiddle with some track ideas. I always encourage this as it really helps you find out hear you like to do and don’t like to do when actually playing with the trains. Track planning softwares can’t do this for you (even if they animate a train on your plan in 3D!) you also find out things your rolling stock might not like in terms of point placement and such and also visualize if there is too much track there and not enough room for scenery. It also gives you a great time to play with looking at how buildings will look (you can even mock these up with cardboard or red print out buildings) and scenery elements (wadded up newspaper taped down and such) so you can modify the track plan if need to do a building or scenery element you really like.

 

Cheers

 

jeff

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Clayton
31 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

It’s really what you want to do for operations vs storage capacity as well as how much space do you want for scenery. Are you doing Dcc, Tomix power routing or traditional block wiring for your train control? This matters in how you would operate of having a train running on your big folded figure 8 line it may be difficult to do switching as your main line runs thru the yard areas.

 

thru yards are great but the point ladder at each end takes up a lot of space. they also double the cost, wiring, control complexity etc. your thru yards have some shorter tracks on the outside ones and your main line runs thru the middle of this yard.
 

Stub yards are a little harder to do switching on, but you also can do some fun puzzles for operations and many smaller yards are like this prototypically.

 

Us 60-80s will put you with potentially bigger cars if you go intermodal, piggy back or even some of the 60-80’ cars or do you plan to keep to shorter cars and trains? For intermodal with limited space a stub yard would allow a few tracks to be cemented in with a storage yard on the side for containers. For your time period piggy back was still big and single stack coming in or very early double stack.
 

maybe look at putting two small to medium stub yards at different areas with some scenery separation (like a line of buildings or ridge) so you have a clear visually separated depot A and depot B to move stuff between. Also a couple of industry sidings to drop stuff off at in different places for interesting operations. Having the stub yards with a leader track (hard to get space though) can let you do switching in the yard while a train is running in the main line if you do DCC or traditional block wiring and 2 throttles.

 

have you done any layouts before? If so what did you like and hate from their plans? If you haven’t played with trains much on a layout like this the I would encourage you to get a Start on your track pile and some of the points and just mock up sections of this layout and play for a while and just fiddle with some track ideas. I always encourage this as it really helps you find out hear you like to do and don’t like to do when actually playing with the trains. Track planning softwares can’t do this for you (even if they animate a train on your plan in 3D!) you also find out things your rolling stock might not like in terms of point placement and such and also visualize if there is too much track there and not enough room for scenery. It also gives you a great time to play with looking at how buildings will look (you can even mock these up with cardboard or red print out buildings) and scenery elements (wadded up newspaper taped down and such) so you can modify the track plan if need to do a building or scenery element you really like.

 

Cheers

 

jeff

Hello Jeff 

Yes, I will be running DCC and later on DCC++ or JMRI. If anything the one third of the layout on the lower industrial side will be detailed. Even with the original layout design I will have anywhere from 18-20 locomotives siting on the layout. Also including around about 60+ cars also.  With the big yard, I am only planning to have five of the switches/points electrified. The others will be manual. The ladder yard on the corners will have the electrical switches. To allow trains to pass. The cost will not be a issue though I will try to cut excessive cost i.e. having manual switches instead of electrical. I do have a couple of container cars though the period I am operating will be to futuristic. Piggy back for sure. The three spurs will be loaded with industries. Maybe I will look in to adding a small stub yard on my original layout. yes, I have built many club N Trak layouts from the 90's-10's. With my initial plan I will run three trains. One doing the roundy round one in the yard switching. Another working the industrial spurs and the interchange on the lower part of the layout. This helped me chose what I would like to build. I never done one for myself due to my time in service and the lack of room in my apartments. I am very familiar with the NMRA standards for example the inner loop. I took in account I will be running SD40-2's and some other six axle locomotives. They don't like radius sharper than 9 3/4". This is why I split the S curve with a crossing in the center.

Cheers 

Clayton

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gavino200
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, MoPac said:

@gavino200 So which one do you like better the oversize yard or the smaller design? 

 

I agree with @cteno4. It all depends on what you enjoy doing. I don't do operations - at all. I have no interest in them, but I respect that many people love them. For some, it's the main focus of the hobby. If operations with freight wagons are what you want, then your original track plan would be the best of the three. 

 

I enjoy running passenger trains and building little scenes. So the only yard that would interest me would be the lower part of the second design. I'd have no interest in the smaller/upper part of the second design, unless I were trying to replicate some depot that looked like that. I'd only be interested in the lower part - the seven long branches. I'd use them to swap out long passenger trains so I wouldn't have to interrupt my play by removing and replacing trains, which can take a while. 

 

Two layouts ago I had a yard with multiple short branches. It was useless for my purposes, and I didn't like it. I changed that on the layout following that by making a yard with six long branches. I liked it much better. When I made my original comment, I was mistakenly assuming that your play patterns were similar to mine. They're not. I think you'll probably enjoy your original plan most. But the only one who can decide is you. 

 

dwEOtU0.jpg

 

E8CrkzL.jpg

Edited by gavino200
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cteno4

Ok thanks mopac, that’s good info.

 

then with the three locos running I would see if you can disjoin your mainlines from yards a bit so you can easily work on things in the yard without backing out onto the mainline a lot as this will be a juggle watching for approaching trains unless you get into block detection in order to prevent accidents or just splitting your attention. Ntrak usually has nice long runs so one person can fiddle in/out of spurs or yard into mainline while someone else is running mainline trains.
 

Many prototype spurs and yards will have those backup tracks (you have a couple) that lets a lot of juggling to happen on a few yard/spur tracks and not have to back onto the mainline until ready to be added onto a train on the mainline or take out of the yard. Of course these leadins and backups get harder to fit into limited space and why I was suggesting stub end yards to get more track space.
 

we had a folded figure 8 like yours on our first layout that was about 4’x12’ in size. When a couple of club members would do dcc on it they would try two or three trains on it and even though it seemed big they would still screw up bringing trains onto the mainline and at the crossover if they did not give it really close attention! 

 

what do you want to do for shunting cars? Do you plan on just assembling longer consists our of the yard in groups or single group or do you want to be doing switching to do single car movements and change ups? Do you want to do industry dropoffs/pickups? what kinds of cars are you using and do you want major scenery elements to serve them (ie intermodal yard as part of your yard, taker filling, hopper filling, industries to deliver to)? Do you want mainly mixed freight consists or more solid consists?
 

What do you want for other scenery elements? Are you interested in breaking the view up of the whole layout to create different areas or hide the trains a bit here and there (this can help break the roundy roundy if a table layout)?

 

again though really is all about what you want to do. Coming from ntrak though you are on a vastly smaller layout area and thus might help to get enough track for the basic loop and some yard sidings and play some to make sure this plan suits your interests well before totally finalizing it.

 

cheers,,

 

jeff

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Clayton
38 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

I agree with @cteno4. It all depends on what you enjoy doing. I don't do operations - at all. I have no interest in them, but I respect that many people love them. For some, it's the main focus of the hobby. If operations with freight wagons are what you want, then your original track plan would be the best of the three. 

 

I enjoy running passenger trains and building little scenes. So the only yard that would interest me would be the lower part of the second design. I'd have no interest in the smaller/upper part of the second design, unless I were trying to replicate some depot that looked like that. I'd only be interested in the lower part - the seven long branches. I'd use them to swap out long passenger trains so I wouldn't have to interrupt my play by removing and replacing trains, which can take a while. 

 

Two layouts ago I had a yard with multiple short branches. It was useless for my purposes, and I didn't like it. I changed that on the layout following that by making a yard with six long branches. I liked it much better. When I made my original comment, I was mistakenly assuming that your play patterns were similar to mine. They're not. I think you'll probably enjoy your original plan most. But the only one who can decide is you. 

 

dwEOtU0.jpg

 

E8CrkzL.jpg

Yes, I plan to run with the original. Thanks again!

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Clayton
5 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Ok thanks mopac, that’s good info.

 

then with the three locos running I would see if you can disjoin your mainlines from yards a bit so you can easily work on things in the yard without backing out onto the mainline a lot as this will be a juggle watching for approaching trains unless you get into block detection in order to prevent accidents or just splitting your attention. Ntrak usually has nice long runs so one person can fiddle in/out of spurs or yard into mainline while someone else is running mainline trains.
 

Many prototype spurs and yards will have those backup tracks (you have a couple) that lets a lot of juggling to happen on a few yard/spur tracks and not have to back onto the mainline until ready to be added onto a train on the mainline or take out of the yard. Of course these leadins and backups get harder to fit into limited space and why I was suggesting stub end yards to get more track space.
 

we had a folded figure 8 like yours on our first layout that was about 4’x12’ in size. When a couple of club members would do dcc on it they would try two or three trains on it and even though it seemed big they would still screw up bringing trains onto the mainline and at the crossover if they did not give it really close attention! 

 

what do you want to do for shunting cars? Do you plan on just assembling longer consists our of the yard in groups or single group or do you want to be doing switching to do single car movements and change ups? Do you want to do industry dropoffs/pickups? what kinds of cars are you using and do you want major scenery elements to serve them (ie intermodal yard as part of your yard, taker filling, hopper filling, industries to deliver to)? Do you want mainly mixed freight consists or more solid consists?
 

What do you want for other scenery elements? Are you interested in breaking the view up of the whole layout to create different areas or hide the trains a bit here and there (this can help break the roundy roundy if a table layout)?

 

again though really is all about what you want to do. Coming from ntrak though you are on a vastly smaller layout area and thus might help to get enough track for the basic loop and some yard sidings and play some to make sure this plan suits your interests well before totally finalizing it.

 

cheers,,

 

jeff

If anything I will run the train at 30-40 scale mph. Until I get JMRI I will stop the main if necessary to let the train work the industrial tracks or back the train onto the interchange track. The train in the yard shouldn't cause a problem. For example the top side of the yard will be for taking down trains and the bottom for building up. Mainly mixed freight due to the different industries. I will have a divider as per the line through the middle of the layout. I do have a bridge 3031 in the top right hand side. 

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cteno4

Even at those speeds (that’s about what we were running on the layout as it was more local/commuter) still easy to loose attention and then you have to flip attention.

 

so the divider will be a vertical scenery backdrop?

 

cheers

 

jeff

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Lawrence
11 hours ago, MoPac said:

@gavino200 So which one do you like better the oversize yard or the smaller design? 

FWIW @MoPac I'd go with the smaller one, smoother operationally and you know what they say, less is more 😃

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Clayton
9 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Even at those speeds (that’s about what we were running on the layout as it was more local/commuter) still easy to loose attention and then you have to flip attention.

 

so the divider will be a vertical scenery backdrop?

 

cheers

 

jeff

Yes, the divider will be a vertical dual scenery backdrop. You have to stay on your toes some how.

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Clayton
Posted (edited)

I did find a happy medium. I did some surgery on the yard of my layout. The top portion will still be the receiving yard. The bottom part I transformed it into a classification yard with two ready tracks next to the main line. Which still cuts through the center of the yard. The last three tracks for each industry. Yes, I kept the refueling/sanding tracks for the locomotives though I shorten them a little to hold two SD40-2's each.  Also I decided whenever I purchase the turntable I'll buy the turntable extension. This will allow me to add more stalls. The top right long spur track is in question about the length. I might reduce one of the 1022's /280mm tracks from this spur and use this as my programing/wheel cleaning/test track to the side. Instead of three of them there will only be two. 

 

With this I am saving $25 on track alone! Plus my wife likes the newer one too. The only electrical switches I will be using is the three triples. The other left and right hand switches throughout the layout will be all manual throws. Yes, I still will have no leftover tracks on this layout.

 

 

4x8.png

Edited by MoPac
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cteno4

Looks good, but more yard length and more turntable tracks.

 

jeff

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Clayton
Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Looks good, but more yard length and more turntable tracks.

 

jeff

Thanks Jeff!  This is one of my goals to place, run and display about half of my locomotives and freight cars.With twenty locomotives and about one hundred cars.

 

Clayton

Edited by MoPac

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AhmadKane
On 5/13/2020 at 12:32 AM, MoPac said:

Snip

 

Looks much2 more neater. I'm just wondering how many sandwiches  could you save from redesigning your plans

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Clayton

Well, I did go back and flip the design and re did it some. I am currently in the process of my build. I have already got the table, door and foam board assembled. Just waiting for payday to start ordering the track.

Door.png

unnamed.jpg

unnamed-1.jpg

Edited by MoPac
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Clayton

What is the timeframe on receiving packages by ordering track from either Hobby Search or Plaza Japan? I know this C.OVID-19 has messed everything up, especially here in the USA.😕

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Yugamu Tsuki

What service level? I think only DHL and possibly FedEx are the only ones not currently embargoed.

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cteno4

The only thing working pretty much right now to the us is FedEx and DHL. Once shipped it’s about 1-4 days for delivery to us destinations.

 

for more info there is a long discussion on current shipping going on under covid here

 


HS seems to have a pretty good DHL rate. It’s on volume not weight so you will see the price not go up for a bit then take a big jump to a larger size with one item added. Hlj has a note up about this on their site.

 

https://www.hlj.com/how-to-save-on-shipping
 

hs also has reinstated surface mail (Ie ship and containers) that takes 1-2 months and seems to be working well (see the covid discussion above).

 

you can pop stuff in your cart at HS and start checkout to see what shipping prices will be.

 

jeff

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Clayton
11 hours ago, Yugamu Tsuki said:

What service level? I think only DHL and possibly FedEx are the only ones not currently embargoed.

 This is good to know! I read on other forums where people ordered their Kato or Tomix and they were being shipped by a ship! Three months or more for delivery!

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Clayton
10 hours ago, cteno4 said:

The only thing working pretty much right now to the us is FedEx and DHL. Once shipped it’s about 1-4 days for delivery to us destinations.

 

for more info there is a long discussion on current shipping going on under covid here

 


HS seems to have a pretty good DHL rate. It’s on volume not weight so you will see the price not go up for a bit then take a big jump to a larger size with one item added. Hlj has a note up about this on their site.

 

https://www.hlj.com/how-to-save-on-shipping
 

hs also has reinstated surface mail (Ie ship and containers) that takes 1-2 months and seems to be working well (see the covid discussion above).

 

you can pop stuff in your cart at HS and start checkout to see what shipping prices will be.

 

jeff

Thank you also for the verification !

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Clayton

Here's some more photos of my work.

 

unnamed-15.jpg

unnamed-10.jpg

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