Advanced DC power supplies/controllers

[David]

For any number of reasons not everyone has a DCC layout. Some of us are feeding plain old direct current to our trains. However that doesn't mean we're stuck with just a 0-12V dial and a reverse switch, and that's what I'd like to start some information sharing about.

 

At the high end are models like Tomix's N-S2-CL controller (>$1000), which has dials to set your trains acceleration, top speed and scale speed display. This lets you use the acceleration and brake handles in a realistic fashion (complete with brake pressure gauge to let you know just how hard you're breaking). Of course it also has sound and pulse lighting, and the ability to switch between multiple trains.

 

At the low end units like the MRC Tech 4 220 have a "momentum" feature, which lets you press a break button to gradually slow the train instead of coming to a dead stop.

 

There are also features like Tomix's pulse lighting, which can keep lights lit without moving the train (how well does this work with Kato trains and with directional headlights? Does it fry auto-sensing DC/DCC boards?)

 

Does anyone know of a cost effective inbetween controllers - something with pulse power for lighting, and the ability to tune speed/acceleration parameters to run realistic acceleration/brake controllers (i.e. I shouldn't be able to jump 100km/h, and it should be possible to use several levels of braking instead of emergency brakes or nothing).

[CaptOblivious]

David, an excellent question. I have no experience with anything but cheapo throttles and DCC, so I can't really add anything, except to mention that Tomix CL (Constant Lighting, e.g. what you were calling pulse lighting I think) + DCC = lots of smoke.

[Martijn Meerts]

The question is, why would you want to put a DCC enabled locomotive on a track that's fed by a Tomix CL controller? =)

 

I can't really say whether or not there are in-between throttles that are a bit more advanced than just a knob but not quite as advanced as the top Tomix one. I grew up with an analog layout with very simple controls, I never really needed more. I went straight to digital from there on, nothing in between really.

 

I've seen plenty analog layouts that use a block system, and they basically just (automatically) control the voltage per block. You get the same effect as digital, except you need tons of wiring and figure out all the electronics, and of course, you can't really use a single controller anymore.

[CaptOblivious]

Spendy, but probably exactly what you're looking for:

 

Gaugemaster DS-USA. Takes North American mains power, controls two lines, has independent brake and throttle to simulate coasting and braking and all that good stuff (they call it "simulation"):

 

http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=USA-DS&style=main&strType=&Mcode=Gaugemaster%20DS-USA

 

manual:

http://www.gaugemaster.com/instructions/ds.pdf

[David]

Seems to be in the same price and feature range as Tomix's N-DU-202-CL (about 18,000 yen street price, 23,000 something MSRP), which has support for constant lighting and simulated control (accelerator knob has 4 positions, brake has 5 positions, and the train will correctly coast and then slow down when acceleration is removed). Output is 1.2A and 0-12V, and it has DC pegs for Tomix's snap on point controls. There are 2 outputs on the back, which can be configured to create a reversing section.

 

http://www.vivimodel.com/03.tomix/5500.control_systems/5512.n_du202_cl/5512.n_du202_cl.htm

 

If someone wants to correct me, it seems that Tomix's constant lighting (using very short pulses of power to get the lights going but keep the engine still) requires that each car have a Tomix CL unit installed (which is probably some kind of capacitor).

 

(It would seem, but I can't be 100% sure, that the two gauges are a current meter and a manometer [break pressure]. The larger Tomix controller with sound adds a scale speed indicator, which simply uses a manually set dial to make a conversion from voltage to km/h)

[CaptOblivious]

David, if you want that Tomix controller, believe it or not my local hobby store has one for sale in their display! I'd be happy to order it for you (on your dime of course ;P ) and post it. Might be cheaper than importing it? Maybe. I'd have to see how much they want.

 

 

Seems to be in the same price and feature range as Tomix's N-DU-202-CL (about 18,000 yen street price, 23,000 something MSRP), which has support for constant lighting and simulated control (accelerator knob has 4 positions, brake has 5 positions, and the train will correctly coast and then slow down when acceleration is removed). Output is 1.2A and 0-12V, and it has DC pegs for Tomix's snap on point controls. There are 2 outputs on the back, which can be configured to create a reversing section.

 

http://www.vivimodel.com/03.tomix/5500.control_systems/5512.n_du202_cl/5512.n_du202_cl.htm

 

If someone wants to correct me, it seems that Tomix's constant lighting (using very short pulses of power to get the lights going but keep the engine still) requires that each car have a Tomix CL unit installed (which is probably some kind of capacitor).

 

(It would seem, but I can't be 100% sure, that the two gauges are a current meter and a manometer [break pressure]. The larger Tomix controller with sound adds a scale speed indicator, which simply uses a manually set dial to make a conversion from voltage to km/h)

[inobu]

Here's a site that had a lot of info.

 

http://www.xs4all.nl/~raicho/model/control/control.htm

 

Inobu

[cteno4]

David,

 

there are a lot of throttles out there for non dcc use that give you all sorts of braking and momentum features. getting the high frequency tomix CL power might be a tough add on. while i think you could easily build a transformer unit to add this power to the track i would have to worry that it could screw with the electronics in the throttle. Its a good question and i have some memories lurking in the back of my mind talking with someone a while back about this potential to pick up the tomix CL features w/o using the tomix throttles. ill dig and ask around some.

 

Here is another cheat idea to take some of both worlds. I was loving the features on many of the dcc systems with brake, momentum and being able to control multiple locos with one hand held, but did not want to go dcc at this junction. JRM has 4 lines on the show layout and our ttrak was looking to also have 4 lines so this ends up being a lot of throttles to buy and place to put them and it would be grand to have more mobile, walkaround control. but with most walkaround systems the walkaround controller only controls one throttle. some have memory so you could plug the control into another throttle to control it and then plug into another, but a pain!

 

so i came up with the idea of using a dcc power system to power a 4 line system i was planning. this would be to just wire each of the lines' track to a beefie 2amp decoder and feed all 4 decoders from a 5-10amp main dcc power supply. this has the decoder feeding its variable power output to the track and a standard non dcc loco on it. this way i could use the cool features of the dcc controller to control each line as a regular dc operated line (as far as the track and loco were concerned). this would also let me control all 4 lines (or more if needed) from one controller.

 

I checked with a bunch of dcc folks and they thought the concept fine, only thing would be to put a good short circuit system in for the track power as a short on the tracks could fry the decoder. inline fuse or lightbulb could probably do the trick here.

 

if you really wanted to get fancy you could even have programmed decoders you could plug in for use on a line that would be programmed with speed/braking curves, speed maxes, etc. for a particular train(s).

 

other bennie this gives you is that most dcc systems have a kill everything button on them so you can stop all the trains/lines at once when there is a crash. this is always a problem with 4 throttles as when there is an emergency its alway funny to watch the current operator trying to find the exact one of the 4 throttles to kill (they should be throwing them all, but human reaction is to look for the bad one for some reason and it takes way longer to kill 4 separate throttles than just push one button).

 

cheers

 

jeff

[inobu]

Jeff,

 

That is a really good idea. Backing the decoder off the train and onto the track. I think I would really like that. I could isolate the yard and run it with one decoder and use another decoder to operate the main lines.

 

In this case it could be a HO scale decoder @ 1.5 amps. and a circuit breaker before the decoder.

It looks like G/O scale run 3 amps or 8 amp - I would not go that high.

 

I think the only factor is the track in that you must maintain low resistance through out the layout.

 

I like that idea.

 

Inobu    

 

I'm going over this one. I like it a lot.  

[CaptOblivious]

Jeff, that's very clever! A good trade off of features for what David wants. I would totally wire a 2A fast-acting fuse between the decoder and the track, though!

[cteno4]

Yeah thats the plan a good fast acting 2A fuse!

 

thinking of using a large scale 2A decoder (few bucks more) that would give a little more umph with sectional track, but we are planning on a good 14g wiring harness with 18g drops like very meter so should be little resistance over all. i think the large scale stuff may be a bit more robust as well (not so miniaturized!)

 

i picked up a nice NCE hand held controller almost new for $100 and decoders are like $25 so for $200 that will control 4 lines and only one box to deal with! it has one of those spin controllers so when you switch to a different train it does not matter where the knob is set.

 

only problem i can foresee is doing crossovers between lines. setting the speed and direction with a single dcc controller may be a bit more juggling than with 2 physical controllers! idea was first for ttrak so no crossovers, but thinking this might work well for jrm, but we do do cross overs a lot of the shinkansen line.

 

the idea could be used with a standard block controlled system as well if desired.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[inobu]

Jeff,

 

It can be done by power switching the crossovers. Using two crossovers and three lines where as the center line is being shared by the lines A and B. The crossovers should toggle one another allowing A and denying B access to the center line or vice versa.     

 

Inobu

 

 

[David]

As long as we're talking about DCC now, maybe you could enlighten me about controls.

 

To the best of my knowledge DCC lets you program locomotives (rather the decoder inside) with values like maximum speed, acceleration, deceleration and which way is "forward". The DCC control unit then issues commands to individual trains like set speed to 50% (on a 0-127 scale). But from looking at the controllers it seems you still use the same dial and a forward/reverse switch as a DC controller. So while the train won't instantly go from stop to 100%, and will treat full throttle as full scale speed instead of warp speed, it seems it still wouldn't operate in an accelerate/coast/break fashion - instead if I turn the throttle to 50% the train will accelerate to that speed as fast as possible, maintain that exact speed, and if I turn the throttle to 0% it will brake as hard as it is allowed in order to slow down.

 

Apart from hooking up DCC to a computer and writing an on screen program to run the trains in this fashion, do any DCC controllers/systems (digitrax in particular) offer a secondary mode where the dial acts as a relative control instead of absolute - so turning it to 1 o'clock accelerates the train slowly, 5 o'clock accelerates fast, 12 o'clock lets the train coast (and slow down under simulated friction) and 11 through 6 o'clock apply various levels of braking? Or any other control scheme or special DCC throttle that works in a relative instead of absolute fashion?

[cteno4]

I always assumed the decoder variables were stored on the decoder not in the controller. would make most sense to be stored on the decoder. sorry im not a dcc head (yet).

 

the nce has a momentum feature that when i get the free upgrade will let you set a momentum rate then just set the speed you want to hit and it will do the momentum up to that point. it does not have a brake, but i have seen other controllers with brake functions. each dcc controller system has a different set of features and its tough to figure each out and what your needs are to find the ultimate one.

 

nice thing is it seems that dcc controllers are where all the features are coming into so this may be a more viable route for folks in the future to have some of the dcc features w/o having to start installing decoders at first. then switch over later. could even have dual wiring easily to flip the layout between dcc and straight dc (from a decoder). the nce does not have the 0-100 throttle wheel, but a continuous wheel so that when you switch between trains you dont get it jumping to what ever the fixed wheel is set at. the continuous wheel you just keep spinning to full or down to off -- no physical beginning or end to the throttle

 

on older regular controllers i have had brake functions that just kept slowing the train as long as you had the brake on and when you released the brake the momentum took it back up to the throttle setting.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[cteno4]

It was just the difficulty of making sure you have the direction on each decoder set to the same direction and speed when doing the crossover! just a big harder than when you have two physical throttles to play with to get that smooth transition from one throttle to another at the xover point! with a single dcc controller it might be a big more confusing, but i think something that should to be bad. i am thinking that maybe some of the macros that are there for consists might help to set the two lines/decoders to the same polarity and speeds (ie both lines/decoders are being driven by the same control settings) so you would get a perfect xover. once transfered just have to remove the consist so that each line becomes separate again.

 

it is a bit confusing doing things this way as its mixing both worlds some and flipping the dcc on its head some, but does give some interesting new features to doing regular dc but getting some of the icing of dcc!

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

Jeff,

 

It can be done by power switching the crossovers. Using two crossovers and three lines where as the center line is being shared by the lines A and B. The crossovers should toggle one another allowing A and denying B access to the center line or vice versa.       

 

Inobu

 

 

[CaptOblivious]

David, you have it correct. Every DCC throttle I've seen in the US is as you describe it: works just like a simple DC throttle. :( a sad state of affairs!!

 

Martijn and I are working to alleviate this shortcoming :) but it will be awhile...years...we are slow people.

 

As long as we're talking about DCC now, maybe you could enlighten me about controls.

 

To the best of my knowledge DCC lets you program locomotives (rather the decoder inside) with values like maximum speed, acceleration, deceleration and which way is "forward". The DCC control unit then issues commands to individual trains like set speed to 50% (on a 0-127 scale). But from looking at the controllers it seems you still use the same dial and a forward/reverse switch as a DC controller. So while the train won't instantly go from stop to 100%, and will treat full throttle as full scale speed instead of warp speed, it seems it still wouldn't operate in an accelerate/coast/break fashion - instead if I turn the throttle to 50% the train will accelerate to that speed as fast as possible, maintain that exact speed, and if I turn the throttle to 0% it will brake as hard as it is allowed in order to slow down.

 

Apart from hooking up DCC to a computer and writing an on screen program to run the trains in this fashion, do any DCC controllers/systems (digitrax in particular) offer a secondary mode where the dial acts as a relative control instead of absolute - so turning it to 1 o'clock accelerates the train slowly, 5 o'clock accelerates fast, 12 o'clock lets the train coast (and slow down under simulated friction) and 11 through 6 o'clock apply various levels of braking? Or any other control scheme or special DCC throttle that works in a relative instead of absolute fashion?

 

 

[inobu]

The decoder has three primary function. Read, interpret and convert. It reads the coded voltage signals that transmitted onto the track by the DCC power module, it then interprets those instructions and finally converts the voltage to a DC current that will operate the trains motor. The difference between the DC controller and the output of the decoder is that the decoder sits on the motor and the DC controller sits on your layout. The essence they are providing the same dc input to the motor. It is just the decoder has controlled instructions to carries out.

 

The speed of the train/motor is dictated by the DC voltage applied. The decoders DC output voltage is what gives the slow and steady acceleration and deceleration. The trains does not know nor care where the DC voltage is coming from. It could be from two wires touching the brushes, the pickups, voltage applied to the wheels or from the track in does not matter.    

 

I cannot see any reason why a decoder could not be removed from the top on the motor onto the feeder point on the track. If the decoder has the ability to output 1.5 amps DC this is no difference than Kato's blue DC controller.

 

Inobu

Just tested out the crossovers and did not know they cannot power switch.

 

In that case you have to incorporate #4 or #6 to switch with the crossovers

[Martijn Meerts]

I cannot see any reason why a decoder could not be removed from the top on the motor onto the feeder point on the track. If the decoder has the ability to output 1.5 amps DC this is no difference than Kato's blue DC controller.

 

Inobu

 

That is quite possible to do, and in fact there are systems designed just like that. There are some disadvantages to the system though, which means it's not for everyone.

 

The single biggest advantage of having the decoders inside the locomotives/motor cars, is that you can completely independently control the trains, regardless of where on the layout they are.

 

With a decoder hooked up via the feeder wire, or (as most systems do this) via the feeder wire per block, you don't control the trains themselves, but rather the blocks.

 

The biggest advantage is of course that you don't need to modify any trains, and because the decoders don't need to be small, it ends up being much cheaper as well.

[David]

Stop the presses, a new TomyTec cab style controller just went up for reserve, and it's under 8,000 yen MSRP:

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10102864

 

From what I can gather:

• It has the standard Tomix track plug (this should pose no challenge to slice open and attach on the Kato Y connector plug)
   
  
• It does not have Tomix CL (constant lighting) - that's ok.
   
  
• It seems to have a working volt meter and working brake pressure meter, though I don't know what the other gauges are - they may be non-functional (it's intended to be a 1:3 scale model of a 101 series cab), or they could be an amp meter and scale speed meter.
   
  
• It only supplies one DC output (no built in reverse loop or multiple train control), unlike the more expensive Tomix models.
   
  
• It would seem (though I'm not certain) that the three buttons in the middle play sounds - 101 running sound, train whistle and door chime.
   
  
• Unlike other Tomix/Kato controllers, there are no 9V battery style plugs for adding switches
   
  
• I'm not sure if the unit can have its scale speed/acceleration modified or if these are even present - while the "working" brake pressure gauge would indicate the brake does something, it could just apply an additional load or otherwise give some analogue resistence (I'm not ruling out that the whole thing is just a TomyTec tram controller with a dressed up voltmeter and a resistence operated break handle glued together - basically a kids cab controller rather then the simulator type of controller I'm after).
   
  
• I don't know what the voltage or amp rating of the unit is - it might be a 6V or 9V unit like the tram controller, or it could be a full 12V/1A plug in contoller.
  

 

I can't find the item on TomyTec's website (the posted schedule only goes to January, while HobbySearch lists a Feburary release date), but would be interested in any other information (such as voltage or whether is does have real and adjustable acceleration/brake control)

[to2leo]

Hi David,

I think Tomytech is glad to know that you are not the salesperson for their cab style controller.

 

Joking aside, thanks for bringing this thread up to my attention.  I am seriously thinking about whether I should go DCC or stick with DC.

 

I am thinking maybe I should DCC the upcoming Unitram first and see if I should invest in it.

 

What I still don't understand is why can't the hobby just adapt the radio-controlled car technology that has been with us for ages?

[Martijn Meerts]

What I still don't understand is why can't the hobby just adapt the radio-controlled car technology that has been with us for ages?

 

As far as I know, there are "rules" or guidelines with regards to which frequency crystals are used in which countries/area's, and the range is limited. Some other system would have to be thought up to replace the whole crystal thing (not sure if that's already done, my RC tank still uses crystals, and that one uses one of the newer Futaba radio's.)

 

Also, the whole receiver bits in RC cars are far too big to be used in trains, that'd have to be miniaturized, which will cost quite a bit of money I guess, and which probably isn't worth if for the companies making RC equipment.

 

And DCC is already too wide spread in Europe and the US.

[Guest ___]

The question is, why would you want to put a DCC enabled locomotive on a track that's fed by a Tomix CL controller? =)

 

I've seen plenty analog layouts that use a block system, and they basically just (automatically) control the voltage per block. You get the same effect as digital, except you need tons of wiring and figure out all the electronics, and of course, you can't really use a single controller anymore.

 

My HO club has a DC wired block system that has been in use for nearly thirty years. The layout runs 7' by 70' with blockes every twenty feet for both inner and outer loops. We would rewire yearly without ever removing the old wires. It became an awful trite.

 

Personally, I have had a Tech II 2500 with momentum control for years that I adore, but to make my wiring on the N-scale easier, I gave up on my beloved momentum control for the Kato. And while I would love to go over and try that TOMIX monster at a grand, it just isn't worth it.

[Guest ___]

Stop the presses, a new TomyTec cab style controller just went up for reserve, and it's under 8,000 yen MSRP:

 

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10102864

 

From what I can gather:

• It has the standard Tomix track plug (this should pose no challenge to slice open and attach on the Kato Y connector plug)
   
  
• It does not have Tomix CL (constant lighting) - that's ok.
   
  
• It seems to have a working volt meter and working brake pressure meter, though I don't know what the other gauges are - they may be non-functional (it's intended to be a 1:3 scale model of a 101 series cab), or they could be an amp meter and scale speed meter.
   
  
• It only supplies one DC output (no built in reverse loop or multiple train control), unlike the more expensive Tomix models.
   
  
• It would seem (though I'm not certain) that the three buttons in the middle play sounds - 101 running sound, train whistle and door chime.
   
  
• Unlike other Tomix/Kato controllers, there are no 9V battery style plugs for adding switches
   
  
• I'm not sure if the unit can have its scale speed/acceleration modified or if these are even present - while the "working" brake pressure gauge would indicate the brake does something, it could just apply an additional load or otherwise give some analogue resistence (I'm not ruling out that the whole thing is just a TomyTec tram controller with a dressed up voltmeter and a resistence operated break handle glued together - basically a kids cab controller rather then the simulator type of controller I'm after).
   
  
• I don't know what the voltage or amp rating of the unit is - it might be a 6V or 9V unit like the tram controller, or it could be a full 12V/1A plug in contoller.
  

 

I can't find the item on TomyTec's website (the posted schedule only goes to January, while HobbySearch lists a Feburary release date), but would be interested in any other information (such as voltage or whether is does have real and adjustable acceleration/brake control)

Seems hard to justify it at that cost for what it is offering or rather what it is not offering. I have conflicted feelings about TOMIX as it is so I think it would be a better bargin at ¥8000 than ¥80000

 

Misread it, ¥8000 might be worth it to me. I can use it for a local loop line, jsut a shame KATO doesn't have this.

[David]

8,000 yen (and that's the MSRP, Googling already turned up a Japanese only site offering pre-order for about 5,500 yen) puts the controller in the same price range as some of the better DC controllers - in fact it's spot on for a DC controller with built in voltmeter. If it does turn out to be real (actual simulation and 12V instead of just a toy controller with fancy dialogs glued on) I think it will be a bargain (except for shipping!).

 

I'm also torn on the DC/DCC thing. My long term plan is to eventually have space for a permanent layout, go DCC (all my train purchases have included the "how hard is to wire for DCC" in the buying equation) and adding computer automation so that the rest of the layout is alive instead of just running loops (Why am I the only driver who picks up passengers?). If I wanted to I could go DCC and have a few trains converted it would be about the same price as the mid range Tomix controller (Digitrax beginner kit going for $150, plus some decoders for my Kato DCC friendly EMUs and Atlas DCC ready locos).

 

The only problem, and it's a big one, is that I really want cab style control. Signals? Those are pretty lights. Prototypical time cards? I can live without. But I really want to be able to drive the train with realistic restrictions - if I'm going to keep to a schedule there needs to be some challenge in terms of going fast enough to reach the station on time but without overshooting the platform (even with DCC's acceleration values you still get the "all braking is emergency braking" problem, which is not very realistic. I want to be able to coast and then lightly apply brakes for a smooth stop). Right now it seems the only way this will happen with DCC is with a computer controlled throttle (and computer control isn't nearly as advanced as it should be - serial port connectors?).

[David]

Oh, and Kato used to have a big money (80,000 yen) cab style controller, but it doesn't seem to have been made for about a decade.

 

http://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10003145

 

No idea about the capabilities, buy you also need a (seperately purchased) power adapter (22-051)