Japanese Trains Getting More Boring to Look At?

[Sean]

I live on the Meitetsu Seto Line in Aichi Prefecture.  Until 2008 the trains on the line were all painted a brilliant, distinctive red color.  They looked great, and as a model railroader I really appreciate trains with striking color schemes.  

 

Then in 2008 they replaced all the rolling stock with the new  Meitetsu 4000 series, which aren't red.  They are just unpainted steel, with only a thin red stripe along the side.  They are extremely boring to look at or photograph compared to the trains they replaced.

 

The reason Meitetsu ditched the red trains is that maintaining trains painted a given color is more expensive than plain steel ones are.  They have to maintain painting facilities in their train yards, which costs money.

 

This economic logic applies to all train lines across Japan and in the twenty years I've lived here I've noticed the trains I see slowly losing their color as colorful old stock is replaced by bland grey steel trains.  

 

Anyone else find this annoying, or lose a beloved colorful train scheme to the boring steel ones?

[bill937ca]

Not all railways use stainless steel trains.  Examples are Hankyu, Enoden, Sotetsu and Keikyu.  It depends on the railway.  Most places you would not find the range of trains operating in Japan.  For many of these trains there are only one or two trains.  Examples: Odakyu GSE 70000, Odakyu VSE 50000, Series 371, Izukyu Resort 21, Chiba New Town Railway 9200 series . For other trains there are less than ten copies: Keisei Skyliner,  Nankai 50000 (Rapi:t ).  North American builders have turned down orders for less than 100 cars before. Every train is largely the same here.

Edited July 3, 2019 by bill937ca

[bikkuri bahn]

Yep, they are.  Sorry about the Seto Line, once had pretty distinctive rolling stock (including those with axle hung traction motors), now just like some suburban cookie cutter Kanto area commuter line- didn't help that line is not connected with the rest of the network. In general, the sameness in worse in the Tokyo area, but there is still alot of character left in Kansai, though Nankai's modernization with J-trec stock is unfortunate. Blame cost-cutting- railways want low maintenance, and builders want to hawk standardized designs ("sustina", "A-train", etc.). Anyway, there is still a lot of character left on the Meitetsu Main Line, and connecting routes- best ride and photograph the red trains while they are still around- I try to ride the 5700 series "Super Romance" cars anytime I'm in the area (right side seat up front, please)...

[Kiha66]

IIRC even Hankyu wanted to go to stainless as well for the cost savings, before local governments complained that the loss of the distinctive color would lower home values in the area.  I guess while the corten steel in the JNR units requires more expensive painting and maintenance, the cars would remain in solid condition for much longer.  The newer cars are cheaper to run, but seem to wear out much faster than older stock.

[Sean]

3 hours ago, bill937ca said:

Not all railways use stainless steel trains.  Examples are Hankyu, Enoden Sotetsu and Keikyu.  It depends on the railway.  Most places you would not find the range of trains operating in Japan.  For many of these trains there are only one or two trains.  Examples: Odakyu GSE 70000, Odakyu VSE 50000, Series 371, Izukyu Resort 21, Chiba New Town Railway 9200 series . For other trains there are less than ten copies: Keisei Skyliner,  Nankai 50000 (Rapi:t ).  North American builders have turned down orders for less than 100 cars before. Every train is largely the same here.

 

I know that a lot of rail lines in Japan still use painted trains and that it is still way better than in North America, but my point is that more and more seem to be switching to plain grey steel ones and I think this is a general trend throughout the country.  In addition to the Meitetsu  Seto Line where I currently live, I used to live in the Kansai area on the Kobe Line, which had a lot of colorful trains (103 Series, 113 series and others) when I lived there in the early 2000s, but now they've all switched to grey steel trains (207 Series, 321 Series).  

[Sean]

25 minutes ago, bikkuri bahn said:

Yep, they are.  Sorry about the Seto Line, once had pretty distinctive rolling stock (including those with axle hung traction motors), now just like some suburban cookie cutter Kanto area commuter line- didn't help that line is not connected with the rest of the network. In general, the sameness in worse in the Tokyo area, but there is still alot of character left in Kansai, though Nankai's modernization with J-trec stock is unfortunate. Blame cost-cutting- railways want low maintenance, and builders want to hawk standardized designs ("sustina", "A-train", etc.). Anyway, there is still a lot of character left on the Meitetsu Main Line, and connecting routes- best ride and photograph the red trains while they are still around- I try to ride the 5700 series "Super Romance" cars anytime I'm in the area (right side seat up front, please)...

You know our little line well!  Its actually not that bad that its disconnected from the rest of the Meitetsu network since it connects to the JR and subway lines at Ozone (also it makes houses on the line a bit cheaper, which allowed me to afford mine!)

 

I do ride the other Meitetsu lines that still have the red color scheme, I take my son to the dinosaur park near Sakyoyama Station which is on the main line, so my son calls the red ones the "dinosaur trains."

 

We have yet to get the front seat in a Super Romance car though.....gotta try it.

 

I did live in the Kansai area before (Himeji) but even there the switch to steel is noticeable, particularly on the Kobe line.  

 

 

[railsquid]

Tokyo Metro are at least bucking the trend with their new Ginza and Marunouchi line trains.

 

[Sean]

50 minutes ago, railsquid said:

Tokyo Metro are at least bucking the trend with their new Ginza and Marunouchi line trains.

 

 

I wish they'd get that message in Nagoya!

[EdF]

So there are 2 modern materials, stainless steel, which is great for heavy use, weather exposed trains, and unfortunately is often left bare. The other is aluminum which is light, and still requires care, and painting is cheaper than polishing.

 

Tokyo metro chooses aluminum and still paints a lot of it grey through.

[Nick_Burman]

10 hours ago, bikkuri bahn said:

Yep, they are.  Sorry about the Seto Line, once had pretty distinctive rolling stock (including those with axle hung traction motors), now just like some suburban cookie cutter Kanto area commuter line- didn't help that line is not connected with the rest of the network.

 

The Seto Line began loosing its charm after the Nagoya terminal was removed from its location inside the castle moat...then came the voltage rise and the end of freight...

 

Cheers NB

[Nick_Burman]

14 hours ago, bill937ca said:

Not all railways use stainless steel trains.  Examples are Hankyu, Enoden, Sotetsu and Keikyu.  It depends on the railway.  Most places you would not find the range of trains operating in Japan.  For many of these trains there are only one or two trains.  Examples: Odakyu GSE 70000, Odakyu VSE 50000, Series 371, Izukyu Resort 21, Chiba New Town Railway 9200 series . For other trains there are less than ten copies: Keisei Skyliner,  Nankai 50000 (Rapi:t ).  North American builders have turned down orders for less than 100 cars before. Every train is largely the same here.

 

Many trains in the railways you quote are of stainless steel construction, except that the steel was sandblasted and painted over.

 

Cheers NB

[chadbag]

 

I don't think the "steel" Kansai trains are boring.  The 323, 321, 223, 225, etc are all different and interesting.   I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

[katoftw]

It is Nagoya.  All things are supposed to be industrial and boring.

[Welshbloke]

16 hours ago, Kiha66 said:

The newer cars are cheaper to run, but seem to wear out much faster than older stock.

I think it's been mentioned a few times on here that the design life is now much shorter than it was for the old JNR stock. Those units were intended to have a major overhaul and refit then go back out into service, whereas modern stock is intended to be scrapped at the same age.

 

The part I find sad is the end of the weird and wonderful old units hanging on as maintenance and tractors. There are still a handful of KuMoYa 145s and a KuMoYuNi 143 rattling around, which will hopefully find retirement homes in museums when JR no longer needs them. I can't help thinking they could be useful storage and exhibition space for small artifacts.

[Sean]

6 hours ago, chadbag said:

 

I don't think the "steel" Kansai trains are boring.  The 323, 321, 223, 225, etc are all different and interesting.   I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

 

 I have a soft spot for those trains since they were the first ones I rode when I first moved to Japan.  But I can't really get excited about them, I always found the older, colorful local trains running on the tracks next to them (at least 15-20 years ago) much more beautiful to look at!

[Sean]

9 hours ago, Nick_Burman said:

 

The Seto Line began loosing its charm after the Nagoya terminal was removed from its location inside the castle moat...then came the voltage rise and the end of freight...

 

Cheers NB

 

Yeah, the castle moat part of the line closed way before my time (1978) but I've visited the part of the moat where they used to run and am kind of amazed that they were ever able to fit a train line down there, especially with this one sharp curve they had to put it around!

 

From the practical perspective of someone living on the line though, having them re-route it away from the moat and to its current terminus in Sakae makes the line a million times more convenient.  

 

I should note that its charm is being further chipped away as I speak - they've torn down the old Kitayama repair yard and station and the whole line between Obata and Omori Kinjogakuin is a massive construction site since they are elevating that stretch.  

[Sean]

4 hours ago, katoftw said:

It is Nagoya.  All things are supposed to be industrial and boring.

 

True.  But its about par for the course for a Japanese city: they are all boring, industrial and grey to look at.  

 

Which makes it all the more important for the damn trains to infuse a bit of color into the scenery!

[railsquid]

18 hours ago, Sean said:

 

I wish they'd get that message in Nagoya!

 

If it's any consolation, "metallic" grey of some form + coloured stripe is becoming the norm around here as well,. worse everything is starting to look like an E231 from the inside.

 

Still at least they still make some effort on the express trains.
 

[pbunter]

It appears I'm in a very small minority but I happen to love Nagoya and the trains running through it. I've enjoyed many many hours riding and observing the trains there (I especially love freight trains) and have a couple thousand photos to go with it. My collection is based on the trains from 2015 - 2018 and that is the era I will model in my dioramas. I had no time to be bored - I enjoyed every minute. Lots of good memories.

[Nick_Burman]

13 hours ago, pbunter said:

It appears I'm in a very small minority but I happen to love Nagoya and the trains running through it. I've enjoyed many many hours riding and observing the trains there (I especially love freight trains) and have a couple thousand photos to go with it. My collection is based on the trains from 2015 - 2018 and that is the era I will model in my dioramas. I had no time to be bored - I enjoyed every minute. Lots of good memories.

IMHO Greater Nagoya (not just Nagoya City) is one of the best places to railfan in Japan...

 

Cheers Nicholas

[Sean]

Yeah, I've lived here for 7 years (4 in Nagoya, 3 in neighboring Owariasahi) and there are some great train viewing opportunities around, particularly with the lines that run up into Gifu.  But particularly with Meitetsu I'm worried that they are phasing out all there wonderful red rolling stock and replacing it with these boring steel things.  Death by a thousand paper cuts or something like that.  

[serotta1972]

I wouldn't say "Japanese Trains" but rather certain lines are getting boring to look at as the topic title implies.  With the number and variety of the trains in Japan, I would never get bored.  If you tire of one type or style, you move on to the next line.  

[bikkuri bahn]

8 hours ago, Nick_Burman said:

IMHO Greater Nagoya (not just Nagoya City) is one of the best places to railfan in Japan...

 

Cheers Nicholas

Concur.  The industrial nature of the region makes for good freight train action, and Meitetsu has enough variety and atmosphere to hold interest.  Add Kintetsu and the various lines in Mie Pref. and you can have a solid week of railfanning if you're a visitor. JR Tokai is a bit of a disappointment, but personally, JR lines are not my primary interest anywhere, so Nagoya/Tokai region still has charm.

Edited July 5, 2019 by bikkuri bahn

[Sacto1985]

On 7/3/2019 at 7:38 PM, railsquid said:

 

If it's any consolation, "metallic" grey of some form + coloured stripe is becoming the norm around here as well,. worse everything is starting to look like an E231 from the inside.

 

Still at least they still make some effort on the express trains.
 

 

I believe that JR East is trying to make every non-express commuter train look like an E231, E233 and increasingly E235. There are some older train sets still running around but the 209 and 211 Series trains are mostly found in other operating areas like the Chūō Main Line west of Takao to Shiojiri and the lines around the Bōsō Peninsula, replacing the even older 113/115 Series trains.

[bill937ca]

57 minutes ago, Sacto1985 said:

 

I believe that JR East is trying to make every non-express commuter train look like an E231, E233 and increasingly E235. There are some older train sets still running around but the 209 and 211 Series trains are mostly found in other operating areas like the Chūō Main Line west of Takao to Shiojiri and the lines around the Bōsō Peninsula, replacing the even older 113/115 Series trains.

 

Yes, and the Tokyu 5050-4000, Toei 10-300, Sotetsu 11000 and other private railway trains are derivatives of the E231 and E233 with different ends. The influence comes not from JR East but the Ministry of Land Infrastructure Transport and Tourism, Railway Bureau.  They are basically seeking universal trains that can run on JR, subways and private railways.  This actually results in more train designs because of tunnel clearances,  steeper grades, and varying signal systems.