Super noisy E127

[Sheffie]

I can’t run this train at any kind of speed without the most horrible rubbing/grinding noise. 

I’ve made a video but it was too big to upload.

When I first run it, it’s quite quiet, but then the noise picks up in volume after five seconds or so. The pitch varies with speed, of course. 

 

I guess the next step is to examine it under the magnifier and see if I can see something amiss. If I can’t... I suppose I’ll have to open it up. This will be my first time going inside a model train... and it’s not the way I would have wanted 

[cteno4]

new or used? looked at the trucks to see if any puzz visible down in the gear openings or around wheel axles? any long needle tweezers to poke in around the wheels for any fuzz mucked up in there?

 

use youtube to make online video and just embed here. sounds can sometimes help diagnose.

 

jeff

 

ps sorry to hear you lost your light rail.

[Sheffie]

It's brand new, just arrived today.

https://www.1999.co.jp/eng/10116424

[Sheffie]

Okay, video is up on YouTube.

Apologies for loud noise at the end.

 

[gavino200]

One of the drive shafts may be dislodged. This frequently occurs in transit.

[railsquid]

Not something I've encountered myself. Easy enough to check though.

 

I've had a couple of Kato units which sounded similar, in each case fixed with a couple of tiny drops of lubrication to the motor bearings. I don't know that particular model but being Kato, it should be possible to remove the chassis underside, which should give access to the motor bearings without having to dismantle the whole thing.

 

 

[Sheffie]

Okay. The body is fairly easy to lift off... and it doesn't really reveal anything. I am less worried about breaking the delicate parts with it off, though. I'll see if I can figure out how to get the underside off.

[Sheffie]

Nothing is obviously wrong here. The drive shaft seems to be in good shape and it’s flexing appropriately when I turn or tilt the bogey. And obviously it’s driving the train well enough.

I wonder if those little black cogs are grinding against the flat bottom of the bogey?

Edited March 19, 2019 by Sheffie

[Kiha66]

Try sticking a folded piece of paper under that white tab on the right holding the motor.  I've had one or two of my kato models with the motor slightly loose in the housing and the buzzing came from it rattling around.  Shimming under that tab made them much quieter.

[cteno4]

When you turn the motor by hand by just moving the stator do both driveshafts turn the wheels on both trucks?

 

can you run the train upside down w.o the cover on? Use some bare wires on the wheels or a 9v battery on the wheels? If so same noise?

 

i would try a tiny bit of fine oil on the motor bearings. Use a tooth pick and add small amounts at a time and run between. Tiny bit of heavy oil on trucks and worm drive. 

 

Ive gotten a few trains from all of the manufactures that were bone dry and did the Grindy sound and careful lubing and one running quieted down.

 

jeff

[Sheffie]

Well, it seems to be a lot quieter after adding some lubrication. The noise factor dropped enormously without the base or coachwork attached to the chassis, but that's neither here nor there. It's just a demonstration that plastic can function as a sounding board for vibrations.

 

Can anyone tell me the secret of getting these close couplers to couple and uncouple? They're the sort with a square pin on one side, and a square hole on the other, with a sort of squared-off hook underneath.

Pushing straight on doesn't seem to join them, and I had to lift both cars off the track to get them to uncouple.

Edited March 19, 2019 by Sheffie

[Sheffie]

Never mind...

1. The noise is back, as bad as ever. Perhaps the oil just absorbed the vibrations for a while, and then got shaken off or something.

2. The couplers seem to need to be manually straightened up before they will meet up properly. They're mounted on the chassis, and have some fairly weak springs trying to keep them centred.

[cteno4]

Sounds like it may be the loose motor rattling. Have you tried to wedge it in better? 

 

jeff

[Sheffie]

16 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Sounds like it may be the loose motor rattling. Have you tried to wedge it in better? 

 

jeff

I looked at it, but I couldn't think of anywhere to wedge anything. I guess between the motor housing and the bottom cover is a possibility.

[gavino200]

1 hour ago, Kiha66 said:

Try sticking a folded piece of paper under that white tab on the right holding the motor.  I've had one or two of my kato models with the motor slightly loose in the housing and the buzzing came from it rattling around.  Shimming under that tab made them much quieter.

 

Wasn't there a similar discussion a few months ago, where this turned out to be the cause of excessive noise? IIRC the solution was to place a tiny piece of rubber between the motor and the chassis.

 

Sheffie, have you tried Kiha's suggestion yet?

[gavino200]

Sheffie, your problem sounds like it might be the same as the problem discussed (and solved) in this thread.

 

 

[Sheffie]

Slight update.

• Vibration / noise is definitely not due to gears or drive shaft. Both have been successfully removed, the motor run from a 9V battery, and the noise confirmed to still be generated.
• Exact source is still not certain. Motor mounting/housing seems to be the culprit.

I haven't yet found the right place to insert a piece of card to absorb or prevent the vibration. Obviously I'm reluctant to stress the motor mount, since it's just plastic. However, I have achieved a small reduction in noise level by inserting a thin sliver of card at one end between the motor proper and its plastic casing. Also, I have gained a fair bit of confidence in my ability to navigate the inside of a motorized train.

 

I'd like to thank everyone for your advice, help, and support. This would have been a very daunting problem without you all on my team, and I very much appreciate that <3

[Sheffie]

Halfway there!

 

The vibrations are coming from the motor, but the thing that’s making them intolerably loud is the body of the coach. 

It’s just two long straight expanses of plastic, with nothing to stop it flapping about. 

I have achieved a substantial reduction in noise level by putting a single piece of card between the chassis and the shell. 

Of course, the card is highly visible as is. The question is, then, should I try to trim the card down, or try a different approach? Can I heat and bend the shell so that it presses inward, rather than using shims to push it further out? Or should I be using something gummy or foamy to dampen the vibrations without stressing the bodywork at all?

 

Has anyone had a similar issue? How did you resolve it? Would you do anything different if the same problem came up again?

[Sheffie]

Here's another video. The E127 is perfect on the first lap, but it does get noisier when it's warmed up.

 

[gavino200]

I could swear I read (in the other thread?) about someone fixing the problem with a thin piece of rubber. Maybe from a elastic band. I thought this was place next to the motor itself. But it may work between the chassis and the shell.

[railsquid]

FWIW this (ca. 20 year old) Kato EF81 was very noisy, which was evidently caused by the plastic frame not holding the motor tightly enough in place, so it vibrated against the chassis. I solved this by applying a small strip of vinyl tape (at least that's what it's called in Japan) between motor and chassis, though that does require removal of the motor.

 

 

 

[Sheffie]

Another attempt, this time with electrical insulating tape (made from PVC, a.k.a. poly vinyl chloride), so probably the same stuff you're talking about, Squid.

I'm still not sure if it's good enough... but it feels like it's good enough for now. There's occasionally some resonance from the EF510, which is why I wanted to include that too.

 

 

Edited March 22, 2019 by Sheffie

[Sheffie]

I should clarify that the tape went on the inside of the shell on each side. 

 

Now I’m thinking that the biggest noise source is going to be the windows rattling. They’re just two almost flat panels with very little holding them in place.  I am pretty sure I can find a way to tape those up. 

 

As for the motor itself. I guess the ultimate problem is that it isn’t properly balanced. That’s not something I can address other than by replacing it. Perhaps I can give it a more absorbent mounting? But it all seems rather precarious and flimsy—lots of small plastic shapes that could be easily broken—so I’m reluctant to tackle that. 

[gavino200]

Kato motor mounts can be difficult to remove but they’re quite sturdy. I’ve never had one break. It’s worth looking at.

 

Tomix on the other hand can be brittle and need to be handled with extreme caution. 

[nah00]

On 3/22/2019 at 11:19 AM, Sheffie said:

Now I’m thinking that the biggest noise source is going to be the windows rattling. They’re just two almost flat panels with very little holding them in place.  I am pretty sure I can find a way to tape those up. 

 

Best way to do this is just use regular white glue (I use Eileen's) so you don't have to worry about marring or frosting the window glass with either model cement or CA. One thing I would make of if you feel that the shell is rattling is that it's completely snapped down on the chassis. This can be surprisingly difficult to notice sometimes. I took me a good hour to get one of the coaches on my Hokutosei back together because of this.