Gavino200s new layout

[inobu]

4 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

I'm curious about one thing. If you wanted this fascia to go all the way to the floor, would you make one or two similar curves mounted onto the framework? And then apply a larger sheet of fascia to the curved framework. 

 

It's a bit weird, but I really don't like seeing all that messy bare wood framework, and I don't like the cloth skirting. I'd prefer to see either, clean furniture-like legs, furniture, or clean fascia to the floor. Probably a combination of all three. 

For this client, He didn't care about the legs showing. I would have preferred to finish it. I'm like you I don't like the legs exposed

or skirts.

 

 

You could do a fascia but I would do the framework list you said but hand doors. Once again, I would have gone to Ikea and bought

the door kit and hung them or remove the legs and replaced them with cabinets.

 

I like going back to the original concept from my layout. This was before I went DCC and as you can see I like Inter modal.

It was setup where you could power route sections of the layout so one controllers could hand off to another but

everything was closed.

 

[gavino200]

2 hours ago, inobu said:

For this client, He didn't care about the legs showing. I would have preferred to finish it. I'm like you I don't like the legs exposed

or skirts.

 

Inobu, that's definitely more down my alley. It looks great and there's a place to store train related things. 

 

 

2 hours ago, inobu said:

 

You could do a fascia but I would do the framework list you said but hand doors. Once again, I would have gone to Ikea and bought

the door kit and hung them or remove the legs and replaced them with cabinets.

 

Those are all great ideas. I may also look into getting/making thicker sturdy looking legs for some segments, to break it up and avoid a "wall of furniture". Like the table that VJM had made for his layout. It looks very good. 

 

 

I agree that the black does look good and would save the problem of needing to use high quality color matched wood for everything. I could see that getting old real fast. 

 

[gavino200]

I removed that awful plastic fake wood trim. I already like the room better. But I the builder's did some very shoddy work finishing the room. Literally cutting corners. I was going to just paint now and adjust the ceiling in a year or so. But I think I'll have a plaster/drywall guy fix it now and get the ceiling lighting fixed. I'll change the floor in maybe a year or so. 

 

 

 

This is what the plastic trim was hiding.

 

 

And this. Forgive the filth. I may clean that window as my last act of the day.

 

 

 

 

[gavino200]

Regarding the (future) layout, the first thing I'll need to decide on is the height. This picture is taken sitting in a chair, which would be my preferred train play/observation position. The previous layout is 38 inches which is too high. You really see nothing. The lack tables are 18 inches. Great view But probably too low. I'm thinking something between these would work. But I'll also have to consider an idea that someone here had to get taller chairs. 

 

[inobu]

Being that we are spending your money its easier to push the envelope.

This is the style for that room in my opinion which can be questionable at times.

 

This would be looking down opposite of the window. I would run this right below to keep the natural light in the room

but close it off is need be.

 

Inobu

 

[gavino200]

3 minutes ago, inobu said:

Being that we are spending your money its easier to push the envelope.

This is the style for that room in my opinion which can be questionable at times.

 

This would be looking down opposite of the window. I would run this right below to keep the natural light in the room

but close it off is need be.

 

Inobu

 

 

There are aspects of this that I like. Overall it has a sort of museum feel to it, and would make a great walk-through exhibit. 

 

I like the solid legs and the clean fascia. I'd make it lower. I also wouldn't use any upper piece. 

[inobu]

2 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

There are aspects of this that I like. Overall it has a sort of museum feel to it, and would make a great walk-through exhibit. 

 

I like the solid legs and the clean fascia. I'd make it lower. I also wouldn't use any upper piece. 

Yes, build it in stages.....Bottom up and stop where you like but make provisions to put the upper section in if you change your mind.

Keep looking at different layouts and piece together what you like. 

 

Make sure that you get your electrical outlets ran ahead on time.  A lot to take into consideration

 

Inobu

 

 

[gavino200]

 

So while assessing the room this evening we had a slight change of plan. Seeing that we're going to be remodeling the room, we decided to take out the wall between the train room and the center room. It'll open it up so that it can be a comfortable relaxation room as well has having a large layout off to the side. It'll also work for resale as people like to have a large room in the basement. 

 

So, I'm going to move the Lack table layout to a fairly large room upstairs that we don't really have a use for. The modeling station goes to the work room, and I'll begin my first attempt to make a module. 

 

The wall that will goe is the one on the left. It's paper thin. I'm certain it's not structural. 

 

 

This is the other side. The wall to go is on the white one.  

 

 

 

 

You can see on the left the door to the work room which will be adjoining. The stairway is on the other side of that green wall, and there's a little space behind it where the electrical/boiler stuff is. 

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by gavino200

[inobu]

lol......

[Cat]

Definitely not a structurally important doorjamb there; sounds like a good plan!

[gavino200]

12 minutes ago, Cat said:

Definitely not a structurally important doorjamb there; sounds like a good plan!

 

Thanks. I think the biggest problem will be that conduit between the ceiling and wall. I think the builder ran the pipes perpendicular to the joists, so he had no choice to have them hanging down. I think we're going to open it up even if that conduit remains hanging there. I don't see any good way of fixing that problem. But we'll ask our contractor. 

Edited May 10, 2020 by gavino200

[cteno4]

16 hours ago, gavino200 said:

It's a bit weird, but I really don't like seeing all that messy bare wood framework, and I don't like the cloth skirting. I'd prefer to see either, clean furniture-like legs, furniture, or clean fascia to the floor. Probably a combination of all three. 

this is a tradeoff. Clean furniture like legs create an engineering system to connect the spindly legs to the layout solidly. This is what we did with Renato’s layout as was requested by his wife

 

 

but I also attempted to attach these same legs to the new JRM layout interlocking framework the modules rest on and it was a failure as the frame work was not totally glued and screwed together, worked great on top of the catipillar suppers but legs a complete failure! So you need to engineer a sub structure for the legs to attach to well which is what we did for Renato’s modules. The bottom sub structure is just 1x6 frame that the legs screw to like the frame you see under a kitchen table. Top is open and the modules just rest on the frame and have some little U blocks of wood that lock the modules onto the leg frame work so they lock the modules onto the leg framework.

 

alternate approach avoiding skirts (I don’t like them either!) is use uglier support legs and stuff and conceal all this with lower facia panels that either hinge or fully remove to utilize the space below. Or use solid furniture like kitchen cabinets that may not allow easy access to under the layout for wiring and such and be quite costly and hard to move. 
 

this is the solid facia approach on Curt’s layout by custom railroad layouts. It worked well for visuals but it a bit of work and more limited access.

 

http://japanrailmodelers.org/pages/modelingjapan/curtlayout3.html
 

im glad you are taking down the wall! Much better approach to have the layout itself be what it needs to be, more like an exhibit space and a comfortable living area next to it to see some of it but not have to try to mix them too much as I think the tradeoffs both ways would have lessened both rather than helped both. Moving the temp table layout upstairs will let you still play while you whack away at the room and not make it a total rush to get the room finished to continue playing with trains as that’s crucial to keep momentum up all around an have some fun (sheetrock and conduits get old fast!)

 

cheers

 

jeff

[gavino200]

8 hours ago, cteno4 said:

this is a tradeoff. Clean furniture like legs create an engineering system to connect the spindly legs to the layout solidly.

 

 

 

I was surprised when fitting legs from the old layout onto a segment that had no legs. It's not that difficult to create stability using thin legs and struts. My brains is fairly engaged on the challenge now. I'm remembering various table undersides that I've seen over the years. 🤪

 

I think I can make stable legs. I wonder if I could make cut away parts on two sides of the leg top so that the legs are flush with the framework. I'll be doing a fair bit of YouTubing on this. 

 

 

8 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

 

 

This is what we did with Renato’s layout as was requested by his wife

 

 

Thanks. Is there a way of finding the relevant posts within the thread without going through the entire thread?

 

 

8 hours ago, cteno4 said:

but I also attempted to attach these same legs to the new JRM layout interlocking framework the modules rest on and it was a failure as the frame work was not totally glued and screwed together, worked great on top of the catipillar suppers but legs a complete failure! So you need to engineer a sub structure for the legs to attach to well which is what we did for Renato’s modules. The bottom sub structure is just 1x6 frame that the legs screw to like the frame you see under a kitchen table. Top is open and the modules just rest on the frame and have some little U blocks of wood that lock the modules onto the leg frame work so they lock the modules onto the leg framework.

 

I really like this stable quick release idea. I could use a simple dowel pin to hold it in place when it's not being moved. This kind of setup would also be ideal if I use a lift out bridge. 

 

 

8 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

alternate approach avoiding skirts (I don’t like them either!) is use uglier support legs and stuff and conceal all this with lower facia panels that either hinge or fully remove to utilize the space below. Or use solid furniture like kitchen cabinets that may not allow easy access to under the layout for wiring and such and be quite costly and hard to move. 

 

this is the solid facia approach on Curt’s layout by custom railroad layouts. It worked well for visuals but it a bit of work and more limited access.

 

http://japanrailmodelers.org/pages/modelingjapan/curtlayout3.html

 

 

 

I think this looks really good. 

 

 

8 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

 

im glad you are taking down the wall! Much better approach to have the layout itself be what it needs to be, more like an exhibit space and a comfortable living area next to it to see some of it but not have to try to mix them too much as I think the tradeoffs both ways would have lessened both rather than helped both. Moving the temp table layout upstairs will let you still play while you whack away at the room and not make it a total rush to get the room finished to continue playing with trains as that’s crucial to keep momentum up all around an have some fun (sheetrock and conduits get old fast!)

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

Yes, having somewhere to play takes the rush away. Also having the modelling workbench will have the same effect. I've been really eager to start working on my little buildings and scenes again. 

 

 

[cteno4]

3 hours ago, gavino200 said:

I think I can make stable legs. I wonder if I could make cut away parts on two sides of the leg top so that the legs are flush with the framework. I'll be doing a fair bit of YouTubing on this

Yep, there is a specific hardware for making this kind of leg support that usually utilizes a bolt driven on the back order of the leg and a bracket that sucks the leg tight up against the two frame ends. Very effective but requires the frame ends to be very flush and accurately cut and placed. You need to build a little jig to hold the leg at a 45 to drill the bolt pilot hole into the leg on the drill press. Did you end up getting a small drill press?

 

there are a few nice leg attachments methods, but they do take some time and care and some hardware usually. The holy grail of sturdy, svelte, nice looking, inexpensive and easy to make legs it’s a tough combo. I’ve always found it one of the most challenging part of woodworking and engineering on projects. It’s tradeoffs! Also probably the biggest part of things I’ve fixed on furniture for friends over the year (I get a lot of that, and am usually happy to do it but when they bring a refinishing job I had them a sander and sandpaper and tell them to have fun!)

 

one good thing with a row of modules is as you connect them together they will help stabilize each other. This is how ntrak works, each is not really that sturdy on their own but clamoring them together and it gets really sturdy. If you use a simple ledge on the wall to support the back end (and some simple plates to keep the module from pulling off the ledge board) then your legs can be much less sturdy as they are only supporting the vertical weight out front no having to control lateral or wrack forces.

 

experiment here. Screw a hunk of 1x2 onto the wall that your going to tear down. Just screw it into like 3 studs with single screw. You coud support the front corners with piece of 1x2 and a couple of screw! Upside here is uber stable and minimal legs, but down side is you need the wall! Again tradeoffs.

 

one important thing is to engineer in a leveling system on each leg. Even with a poured concrete floor in the garage and basement I can at time find wonky spots plus minor variations in woodworking. It saves from trying to do unending shimming once you have a forest of legs on multiple modules!

 

3 hours ago, gavino200 said:

Thanks. Is there a way of finding the relevant posts within the thread without going through the entire thread?

it was just for the picture there that showed the support frame that the ikea legs attached to and the modules just sitting in top. Sorry I never did a full writeup on his layout build as I thought Renato was going to. I’ll see about putting all that content into a single topic.

 

3 hours ago, gavino200 said:

I really like this stable quick release idea. I could use a simple dowel pin to hold it in place when it's not being moved. This kind of setup would also be ideal if I use a lift out bridge. 

the JRM modules were designed for mainly temp setups and to breakdown into small as possible. Issue it has is the interlocking frame work under the modules needs a sturdy base to sit on like the caterpillar stands or larger furniture as it does not bolt together it just is simple half lap joints as we wanted rapid setup and tear down and fewest little parts like bolts and thumbscrews. Modules are aligned with 2 dowels between modules along adjoining edges and held together tightly by binder clips (fast to put on and remove and very secure). Downside is caterpillars take up a lot of space under the layout and access is tough thur the framework (same goes with using a lot of furniture.
 

On Renato’s he was not moving much but wanted to be able to reconfigure the main modules from a big U to an L or even a very long straight layout (he was not sure on the competition for space in the recent room the layout is in off into the future. So there it was just two supports with legs like 7’x3.5’ his 4x4, 4x2 and 4x3 modules sit on and just reconfigured if needed. Modules are connected to each other with simple Wood U that lock modules together w.o having to try to do bolt holes in module sides. It was a good solution for his needed of rearranging some, minimal cost (I think like $50 for ikea legs and they were attatched in 10 minutes, a clean look for his wife (all looks like an ikea table and modules have 2” cherry veneer so looks like furniture not a train module after you go over the edge of the layout.)

 

3 hours ago, gavino200 said:

I think this looks really good

yep that by a super pro custom layout company here in Baltimore. They do museum exhibits a lot with dioramas ans trains so are use to making exhibit bases like this. This is a fixed layout, it does come into several large pieces that can be moved by big truck (he did successfully move it after a number of years but hired the modeling company to do it, apparently this happens enough). He was smart in that he knew it would eventually move so all free standing and super sturdy bases that can take the stress of moving for the layout.

 

but it sounded like you liked the idea of a totally clean exhibit type base. You could build a simple frame base That the modules rest on that’s not so pretty but basically a modular tinker toy like the nice system inobu was showing and then just Velcro like 4’ Long panels of 5mm plywood (paint ir stain how you like) to the supports to give that clean inset wall but totally removable in 2 sec to get to storage or under the layout.
 

3 hours ago, gavino200 said:

Yes, having somewhere to play takes the rush away. Also having the modelling workbench will have the same effect. I've been really eager to start working on my little buildings and scenes again

excellent! so glad to hear this! Really important on both fronts!

 

lots of ways to skin the layout!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[gavino200]

6 hours ago, cteno4 said:

Yep, there is a specific hardware for making this kind of leg support that usually utilizes a bolt driven on the back order of the leg and a bracket that sucks the leg tight up against the two frame ends. Very effective but requires the frame ends to be very flush and accurately cut and placed. You need to build a little jig to hold the leg at a 45 to drill the bolt pilot hole into the leg on the drill press. Did you end up getting a small drill press?

 

No I never did. But I think I will. Next time I have a specific need I'll get one. 

 

 

6 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

there are a few nice leg attachments methods, but they do take some time and care and some hardware usually. The holy grail of sturdy, svelte, nice looking, inexpensive and easy to make legs it’s a tough combo. I’ve always found it one of the most challenging part of woodworking and engineering on projects. It’s tradeoffs! Also probably the biggest part of things I’ve fixed on furniture for friends over the year (I get a lot of that, and am usually happy to do it

 

 

I'm starting to have the urge to stick my head under every table I can find to see how the legs are fixed in place. 😱

 

6 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

but when they bring a refinishing job I had them a sander and sandpaper and tell them to have fun!)

 

 

🤣🤣

 

 

6 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

one good thing with a row of modules is as you connect them together they will help stabilize each other. This is how ntrak works, each is not really that sturdy on their own but clamoring them together and it gets really sturdy. If you use a simple ledge on the wall to support the back end (and some simple plates to keep the module from pulling off the ledge board) then your legs can be much less sturdy as they are only supporting the vertical weight out front no having to control lateral or wrack forces.

 

experiment here. Screw a hunk of 1x2 onto the wall that your going to tear down. Just screw it into like 3 studs with single screw. You coud support the front corners with piece of 1x2 and a couple of screw! Upside here is uber stable and minimal legs, but down side is you need the wall! Again tradeoffs.

 

I never would have thought of that. Experimenting with the tear-down wall is a great idea!. Thanks. 

 

 

6 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

one important thing is to engineer in a leveling system on each leg. Even with a poured concrete floor in the garage and basement I can at time find wonky spots plus minor variations in woodworking. It saves from trying to do unending shimming once you have a forest of legs on multiple modules!

 

There's a mechanism on the tiny T-track module that I built. As I remember it was pretty simple. Something with a rubber stopper would be ideal though for the modules. 

 

 

6 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

it was just for the picture there that showed the support frame that the ikea legs attached to and the modules just sitting in top. Sorry I never did a full writeup on his layout build as I thought Renato was going to. I’ll see about putting all that content into a single topic.

 

No biggy. I'll find it. I was really just wondering if there's a simple way of finding these things that I was missing. 

 

 

6 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

the JRM modules were designed for mainly temp setups and to breakdown into small as possible. Issue it has is the interlocking frame work under the modules needs a sturdy base to sit on like the caterpillar stands or larger furniture as it does not bolt together it just is simple half lap joints as we wanted rapid setup and tear down and fewest little parts like bolts and thumbscrews. Modules are aligned with 2 dowels between modules along adjoining edges and held together tightly by binder clips (fast to put on and remove and very secure). Downside is caterpillars take up a lot of space under the layout and access is tough thur the framework (same goes with using a lot of furniture.

 

I agree. I really have to think the furniture thing through. I have no specific ideas on how it might work. It might be better if the bookshelves didn't actually support the module but just fit in place. The module could be supported by legs and hang over the bookcase like a ledge. I could then just pull out the bookcase and go in. 

 

6 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

On Renato’s he was not moving much but wanted to be able to reconfigure the main modules from a big U to an L or even a very long straight layout (he was not sure on the competition for space in the recent room the layout is in off into the future. So there it was just two supports with legs like 7’x3.5’ his 4x4, 4x2 and 4x3 modules sit on and just reconfigured if needed. Modules are connected to each other with simple Wood U that lock modules together w.o having to try to do bolt holes in module sides. It was a good solution for his needed of rearranging some, minimal cost (I think like $50 for ikea legs and they were attatched in 10 minutes, a clean look for his wife (all looks like an ikea table and modules have 2” cherry veneer so looks like furniture not a train module after you go over the edge of the layout.)

 

I really like the sound of this. 

 

 

6 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

but it sounded like you liked the idea of a totally clean exhibit type base. You could build a simple frame base That the modules rest on that’s not so pretty but basically a modular tinker toy like the nice system inobu was showing and then just Velcro like 4’ Long panels of 5mm plywood (paint ir stain how you like) to the supports to give that clean inset wall but totally removable in 2 sec to get to storage or under the layout.

 

 

I think this may be a possibility. I may use a combination of techniques. I need to go back and do an 'idea harvest' on this thread. It's full of great input. 

 

[cteno4]

3 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

I'm starting to have the urge to stick my head under every table I can find to see how the legs are fixed in place. 😱

Lol welcome to the club! I do this all the time with furniture!

 

5 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

There's a mechanism on the tiny T-track module that I built. As I remember it was pretty simple. Something with a rubber stopper would be ideal though for the modules. 

yeah usually simple solution is to mount a threaded insert into the bottom end of the leg and screw in a bolt. You can just put a felt pad on the bottom to protect the floor. You can also get threaded feet that are rubber (like comes with those wire shelf and tube shelving units.

 

9 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

I agree. I really have to think the furniture thing through. I have no specific ideas on how it might work. It might be better if the bookshelves didn't actually support the module but just fit in place. The module could be supported by legs and hang over the bookcase like a ledge. I could then just pull out the bookcase and go in

wheels man, I love wheels. I have a pile of bankers boxes and plastic boxes in the basement that I don’t currently have shelves for so I’m just making a small dolly that is 3 boxes wide so I can stack up like 6 high (I don’t go in these much) and when in the way I can just roll the pile aside. Later I’ll just wheel like 2 high piles under new work surfaces to play trains on. I’m tired of moving them around one by one all the time in the limited space!

 

12 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

I really like the sound of this. 

Experiment with your current temp modules and some corrugated cardboard. Just hot glue some perpendicular 1” cardboard strips to keep the cardboard flat and true. You can paint it to see what it might look like under a module, inset, etc. also tape some cardboard onto the face of the module to see what depth a facia on the module you might like visually. This could just be added onto the face of your module frames later, don’t have to make the frame that height. This is how we mock up exhibit bases. We use to start with 3/4” scale mockups, then half scale then full scale!

 

20 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

I think this may be a possibility. I may use a combination of techniques. I need to go back and do an 'idea harvest' on this thread. It's full of great input. 

yep that’s the way, what ever permutation gets you what you want!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[gavino200]

Coming along nicely. 

 

[cteno4]

Nice! looks sooo much bigger and open than the long skinny rooms. Feels like it can now be a big fun room! I’m jealous on the space! 

 

Your adding plenty of power circuits, correct? Hopefully breaker box is down there and easy to add some for heat or air and also circuits for lights in the ceiling? Now is the time to do it with it all open!

 

ceiling going to be tiles or Sheetrock?
 

Did you ever find a place to run a vent for the paint booth?

 

Jeff

[gavino200]

1 minute ago, cteno4 said:

Nice! looks sooo much bigger and open than the long skinny rooms. Feels like it can now be a big fun room! I’m jealous on the space! 

 

Yes, it'll make nice lounging and reading room / train room. Though I'm tempted to make it a lounging / exercise / train room. I've been "training for my old age" and getting more into it. There's a room upstairs that's set up as a kind of gym, but it's getting more and more cramped.

 

1 minute ago, cteno4 said:

 

Your adding plenty of power circuits, correct? Hopefully breaker box is down there and easy to add some for heat or air and also circuits for lights in the ceiling? Now is the time to do it with it all open!

 

Yes, lots of plugs, including a power strip where my workbench is.

 

1 minute ago, cteno4 said:

 

ceiling going to be tiles or Sheetrock?

 

 

Sheetrock with ceiling can lights. A compromise with my wife is to leave the floor right now, and come back and place heated tiles after we redo the upstairs bathrooms.

 

1 minute ago, cteno4 said:

 

Did you ever find a place to run a vent for the paint booth?

 

Jeff

 

Not really. I stopped worrying about that when I realized I don't need it for acrylic paint.

[cteno4]

Hook up a generator to the treadmill and you can control your trains by how fast you move! You’ll probably then move from shinkensens to slow commuter routes...

 

jeff

[inobu]

3 hours ago, gavino200 said:

Sheetrock with ceiling can lights. A compromise with my wife is to leave the floor right now, and come back and place heated tiles after we redo the upstairs bathrooms.

 

You need to Renew your wedding vows.......

 

Inobu

 

[chadbag]

4 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

 

Yes, lots of plugs, including a power strip where my workbench is.

 

 

 

Not just plugs, but multiple circuits.

[gavino200]

Slow but steady progress.

 

[Kiha66]

Wow, nice progress Gavin!  Its already feeling a lot more inviting and light in there.

[cteno4]

nice blue! 

 

jeff