Gavino200s new layout

[cteno4]

I thought he meant a zipper, like in your barn door is open! 😜

seriously they do work well in places you don’t want to deal with swinging doors taking up space, but you have to leave the wall space it covers clear. Folks have been doing very designy things with them with panels of like compressed straw, bamboo, etc so it’s different look than a door, more like a decorative panel.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

So I've decided my next move(s)

 

I'm setting up two corner modules.  @Kiha66's idea. Each will have a turning loop. The idea will be to begin by building a module to go between them, and then keep moving them as the layout expands. 

 

For now, between them I'm going to put a straight segment between them that you can see in the picture. This piece will bolt on to the other two. For now I'm just going to set up my station on a simple double loop so that I can work on it. 

 

I have a spare set of legs. I'm going to set up this rectangle as a practice layout so I can work on moddeling roads, streets, and other things. I'm going to set my houses up here and get modelling houses here. Probably I'll set up the Tomix tram on this and work out how to inlay it into the streets. 

 

 

I'm going to use this piece to practice basic wookworking skills. First I'll take off the MDF and take out the pointy piece so it's a simple rectangle (for practice). Then I'm going to try different techniques of adding legs that are sturdy and look better than the horrible ones on the old layout. 

 

I'll experiment with height, to find out what height I'm most comfortable with. I'll also use this to experiment with different material for noise minimization. 

 

 

[gavino200]

After analyzing these layout elements that were made for me by someone else, I feel much more confident about doing some wood work. They're really quite crude. And I'm familiar with all the techniques that have been used in making them. I'm still nervous about sawing but otherwise I think I may enjoy this aspect of the build. 🙂 

Edited May 9, 2020 by gavino200

[cteno4]

1x4 cuts easily with a nice hand miter saw, it will just burn a few calories and some time! You could easily go to 1x3 for the frame if you wanted.
 

https://smile.amazon.com/CRAFTSMAN-Mitre-Adjustable-Angle-CMHT20800/dp/B07R4BVSB4/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=Hand+miter+saw&qid=1588990435&sr=8-9

 

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/saws/saw-guides/52321-nobex-economical-miter-box

 

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/saws/saw-guides/32927-nobex-standard-miter-box
 

a decent wide blade pull saw (Japanese style) you can pretty effectively saw ODX like your old module tops or 1/2 or 3/16” ply easily and pretty straight. You can cut it off once mounted and use the frame as a good guide if careful. Also usually you can get your ply cuts done at Home despot or lowers pretty well (at times though their equipment and operators can be not the best...)

 

https://smile.amazon.com/SUIZAN-Japanese-Ryoba-Double-Edge/dp/B01MU9XB1W/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Pull+saw&qid=1588990839&sr=8-2

 

jeff

[inobu]

Order the Sievers benchwork. What typically happens is people get board at one phase or another and start cutting corners to get to the next phase.

They start making mistakes and keep accepting them. By the time they get to the end of the project its about 65% accurate.

 

You cannot cut the wood square with a hand saw so the ends will not butt flush. Because the end are not flush you will not

get square boxes. That in turn will make the base and legs wobble.

 

Notice the holes! They make running your wire easy which well get you through the tedious wiring phase quicker. All the screws and bolts

washers and nuts comes with the kit. You will get the satisfaction of doing it yourself and the assurance that it will come out good.

 

 

 

I could cut the lumber myself and still give up the profit for the efficiency of ordering it. This is the my setup. GCM12SD

DEWALT DWE7480, DWST11155, #8 Countersink.

 

These are the tool you need to do your project the right way.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

[AhmadKane]

2 minutes ago, inobu said:

Order the Sievers benchwork. What typically happens is people get board at one phase or another and start cutting corners to get to the next phase.

They start making mistakes and keep accepting them. By the time they get to the end of the project its about 65% accurate.

 

You cannot cut the wood square with a hand saw so the ends will not butt flush. Because the end are not flush you will not

get square boxes. That in turn will make the base and legs wobble.

 

Notice the holes! They make running your wire easy which well get you through the tedious wiring phase quicker. All the screws and bolts

washers and nuts comes with the kit. You will get the satisfaction of doing it yourself and the assurance that it will come out good.

 

 

 

I could cut the lumber myself and still give up the profit for the efficiency of ordering it. This is the my setup. GCM12SD

DEWALT DWE7480, DWST11155, #8 Countersink.

 

These are the tool you need to do your project the right way.

 

Inobu

 

 

 

 

That's helluva good benchwork there, really neat

[gavino200]

1 hour ago, cteno4 said:

1x4 cuts easily with a nice hand miter saw, it will just burn a few calories and some time! You could easily go to 1x3 for the frame if you wanted.
 

https://smile.amazon.com/CRAFTSMAN-Mitre-Adjustable-Angle-CMHT20800/dp/B07R4BVSB4/ref=sr_1_9?dchild=1&keywords=Hand+miter+saw&qid=1588990435&sr=8-9

 

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/saws/saw-guides/52321-nobex-economical-miter-box

 

https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/tools/hand-tools/saws/saw-guides/32927-nobex-standard-miter-box
 

a decent wide blade pull saw (Japanese style) you can pretty effectively saw ODX like your old module tops or 1/2 or 3/16” ply easily and pretty straight. You can cut it off once mounted and use the frame as a good guide if careful. Also usually you can get your ply cuts done at Home despot or lowers pretty well (at times though their equipment and operators can be not the best...)

 

https://smile.amazon.com/SUIZAN-Japanese-Ryoba-Double-Edge/dp/B01MU9XB1W/ref=sr_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=Pull+saw&qid=1588990839&sr=8-2

 

jeff

 

Thanks Jeff. Nice tools. I have a basic miter box that works pretty well for me. I think that japanese looking Japanese saw. I had a more standard one (until last week when I lost it while draining a swamp. I need to get a new one. 

 

[inobu]

53 minutes ago, AhmadKane said:

That's helluva good benchwork there, really neat

That is an example of the same benchwork that I use. I pulled that off the internet.

 

I was trying to show the importance of the benchwork and the foundation it creates.

The bottom image is the CAD of the layout. The top image is the closeup of the yard area.

 

Its like a skeletal system. What's going on in the inside reflects what the outside of going to look like.

 

If you look in the background you can see how the bench work was lifted up to 48" and the roadbed 

lifted another 6" from the CAD design rendering. 

 

This is why I keep saying it take planing and do it in modules.

 

 

 

That was a 14' x 12' layout and I got the benchwork up in 2 days. (Alone)

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by inobu

[gavino200]

43 minutes ago, inobu said:

Order the Sievers benchwork.

 

It's definitely a possibility. I could use something like that. Or hire a cabinet maker. But I'm actually interested now in doing some of this myself. First I'll learn a skill that I can apply to other (as yet unknown) tasks in the future. Second it will give me the freedom to improvise.

 

43 minutes ago, inobu said:

 

What typically happens is people get board at one phase or another and start cutting corners to get to the next phase.

They start making mistakes and keep accepting them. By the time they get to the end of the project its about 65% accurate.

 

Well. Fortunately none of us is "typical". We're all individuals. I don't actually get bored that easily. And I'm not in a hurry. Lumbar is relatively cheap and I don't mind doing something over completely if I don't like the result. I'm assuming by accuracy You're talking about making the surface 100% even, smooth, and flat. A good goal. I may not get 100%, but I'm pretty sure I'd do better than 65%. But I know you're using hyperbole. I take your point. 

 

43 minutes ago, inobu said:

 

You cannot cut the wood square with a hand saw so the ends will not butt flush. Because the end are not flush you will not

get square boxes. That in turn will make the base and legs wobble.

 

You really actually can. That's how the ancient world was built. A miter box is actually very good for doing this.

 

 

43 minutes ago, inobu said:

 

Notice the holes! They make running your wire easy which well get you through the tedious wiring phase quicker.

 

 

I'm planning on making holes in any case. That's how I ran wires on my old layout. They're not hard at all to make. 

 

43 minutes ago, inobu said:

All the screws and bolts washers and nuts comes with the kit. You will get the satisfaction of doing it yourself and the assurance that it will come out good.

 

I'm not worried about screws and bolts. That part isn't hard, and is sort of interesting. I really wouldn't get any satisfaction from assembling a mail order kit. And I wouldn't consider that doing it myself. 

 

43 minutes ago, inobu said:

 

I could cut the lumber myself and still give up the profit for the efficiency of ordering it. This is the my setup. GCM12SD

DEWALT DWE7480, DWST11155, #8 Countersink.

 

These are the tool you need to do your project the right way.

 

 

I get what you're saying. But for me this isn't a business decision. The whole hobby is an expense. And I'm not really in a huge hurry. 

[gavino200]

8 minutes ago, inobu said:

That is an example of the same benchwork that I use. I pulled that off the internet.

 

How do you use this product to make curved edges?

[inobu]

Gavino,

 

I'm not in a hurry........lol.......Do you realize that everything you post is typically done in a day or two later. Look at he bench

You posted one day and the next thing I see is the bench put together with everything put in place...........

 

OK...lol

 

Inobu

 

[inobu]

2 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

How do you use this product to make curved edges?

The curves is made by the fascia.

 

[inobu]

That is what I meant by rounding inside gives the layout more space and outside curves gives more hip space.

[gavino200]

2 minutes ago, inobu said:

Gavino,

 

I'm not in a hurry........lol.......Do you realize that everything you post is typically done in a day or two later. Look at he bench

You posted one day and the next thing I see is the bench put together with everything put in place...........

 

OK...lol

 

Inobu

 

 

I wish that were true inobu. But really it's not. Most of my projects take months to complete. All I did here is to assemble some layout components that are already completed. Even still I haven't adjusted the legs yet. There are a few reasons for this. To work out what height I want. To create end pieces so that I can make the layout slowly over time while still being about to run trains. And also to have a place to experiment with modelling techniques during the slow process of building the layout. 

[cteno4]

With a decent miter saw with vertical guides you can get nice square cuts taking your time. It’s time intensive and physical but very doable and you won’t end up way out of spec if you are careful. I use to make picture frames with a miter saw above that were spot on 45 cuts as it was fast and simple to be accurate compared to cutting on a table saw. You need a big sled and stops to get stuff good on the table saw. I could line things up and do careful cuts on the hand miter saw faster. With your modular system you just need to keep things square and on size and it will be fine as you don’t have to fit to a half inch over 20’ you can engineer in some wiggle room.

 

i agree with inobu if you want it perfect and completely clean then getting a cabinet maker or a layout service to power cut things is the way to go. But if you want to go by hand it’s doable, just some tools and some practice and patience. It’s all in how you want to do it! I have a friend that does a lot of hand crafted Japanese woodwork all by hand but he also does regular exhibit fabrication in a full power shop. He loves both. He goes to week long classes for the hand stuff and spends the first two days just sharpening tools! Very zen.

 

pull saws definitely are much easier to control for a cleaner cut. Plus they usually have two different tooth counts to choose from for finer cutting or speed. Takes a little getting use to but I think much better than the old push saw. I also have. A couple of small flexible ones with flush teeth so you can do nice flush cuts to cut off dowels and pieces along an edge cleanly.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

5 minutes ago, inobu said:

The curves is made by the fascia.

 

 

That's very nice. That's a nice veneer. What wood is it?

[gavino200]

3 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

With a decent miter saw with vertical guides you can get nice square cuts taking your time. It’s time intensive and physical but very doable and you won’t end up way out of spec if you are careful. I use to make picture frames with a miter saw above that were spot on 45 cuts as it was fast and simple to be accurate compared to cutting on a table saw. You need a big sled and stops to get stuff good on the table saw. I could line things up and do careful cuts on the hand miter saw faster. With your modular system you just need to keep things square and on size and it will be fine as you don’t have to fit to a half inch over 20’ you can engineer in some wiggle room.

 

I agree. The miter box works very well. I've used it quite a lot at this stage. 

 

 

3 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

i agree with inobu if you want it perfect and completely clean then getting a cabinet maker or a layout service to power cut things is the way to go.

 

Well, it doesn't need to be perfect. I'll try to make it as good as I can. But I don't expect it to be perfect. If I hired a professional to do it, I probably would want the work to be very good. If I couldn't do any part well or safely I'd get the help of a professional. I don't feel at all that I need to do every bit of it myself. But I can probably make simple modules. And I think I'd enjoy it. 

 

3 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

But if you want to go by hand it’s doable, just some tools and some practice and patience. It’s all in how you want to do it! I have a friend that does a lot of hand crafted Japanese woodwork all by hand but he also does regular exhibit fabrication in a full power shop. He loves both. He goes to week long classes for the hand stuff and spends the first two days just sharpening tools! Very zen.

 

I do like to cut wood by hand. The only part of woodwork that I'm not interested in is using a power saw. A common misconception is that expert craftsman don't hurt themselves with those things. They do. As often as not it's extremely experienced craftsmen who have spent years paying attention to proper safety habits. I've yet to work on anyone injured by a handsaw.

 

3 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

pull saws definitely are much easier to control for a cleaner cut. Plus they usually have two different tooth counts to choose from for finer cutting or speed. Takes a little getting use to but I think much better than the old push saw. I also have. A couple of small flexible ones with flush teeth so you can do nice flush cuts to cut off dowels and pieces along an edge cleanly.

 

 

I've being using a pull saw for a few years now. I was introduced to the tool by the buy who built the framework for my last layout. It's a great tool. 

[inobu]

11 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

That's very nice. That's a nice veneer. What wood is it?

You use masonite and then paint it. If you put a good primer you can texture it. It comes out good. 

 

 

Inobu

[gavino200]

2 minutes ago, inobu said:

You use masonite and then paint it. If you put a good primer you can texture it. It comes out good. 

 

 

Inobu

 

It's very nice, Inobu. You do excellent work. 

[inobu]

Just now, gavino200 said:

 

It's very nice, Inobu. You do excellent work. 

No, its good.............Excellent is insane and I'm not there.

 

INobu

[gavino200]

Just now, inobu said:

No, its good.............Excellent is insane and I'm not there.

 

INobu

 

Always humble. A real gentleman.

[cteno4]

The vertical guide miter boxes do a much better job than the box ones. Easier to use and you can do larger stock. Slides keep the teeth from slowly enlarging your guide slots. I was introduced to one very young and used it a lot for straight cuts when dad was not around to oversee me on the table saw. 
 

if you fear power saws you might take a look at the sawstop as it takes care of this worry. Jamming your hand into the blade will result in only a small Nick/cut but a ruined blade and $85 stop cartridge, but no hospital bill or loose phalangies on the floor! It’s not cheap, but they are high quality table saws and actually for the price about as cost effective as similar ones with no safety stop. I went almost 50 years using a table saw and never got close to an accident (I was taught well and have stayed vigilant) but went to one as you say many with power saw damage are seasoned woodworkers. But the joy is it takes that issue off the table saw! I am just as vigilant as I would rather never test it, but I know it all works as I accidentally launched a small metal ruler into the blade after I had turned it off and it was almost spun down and it still tripped the mech like a charm! Luckily as the blade was slow turning it didn’t damage the blade but $85 cartridge replacement. I now have some neodymium magnets on the fence that I drop the rulers on so they can’t get knocked around! 
 

 

 

you are right one of the most experienced and careful woodworkers I know took off his index finger and thumb in a dumb but human reflex situation on a table saw outside in the wind with a piece of plywood. He made the mistake of not thinking that wind would catch the wood. Ended his shop Forman career (luckily the institution moved him into an executive job higher up he did well in until retirement). 
 

 

but doing everything by hand for sawing is perfectly fine! The more you do the better you get too! It is very zen like and why I think my friend is so into it. He was a catholic munk for a few years and loved it before he threw his back out and could no longer function within monkdom and think this gives him some of peace and zen his monk stuff did he loved.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[gavino200]

8 hours ago, cteno4 said:

The vertical guide miter boxes do a much better job than the box ones. Easier to use and you can do larger stock. Slides keep the teeth from slowly enlarging your guide slots. I was introduced to one very young and used it a lot for straight cuts when dad was not around to oversee me on the table saw. 

 

 

Thanks. I'll get one. The miter box was a jump to light speed for me. Really a jump from rest to movement. 

 

8 hours ago, cteno4 said:

if you fear power saws you might take a look at the sawstop as it takes care of this worry. Jamming your hand into the blade will result in only a small Nick/cut but a ruined blade and $85 stop cartridge, but no hospital bill or loose phalangies on the floor! It’s not cheap, but they are high quality table saws and actually for the price about as cost effective as similar ones with no safety stop. I went almost 50 years using a table saw and never got close to an accident (I was taught well and have stayed vigilant) but went to one as you say many with power saw damage are seasoned woodworkers. But the joy is it takes that issue off the table saw! I am just as vigilant as I would rather never test it, but I know it all works as I accidentally launched a small metal ruler into the blade after I had turned it off and it was almost spun down and it still tripped the mech like a charm! Luckily as the blade was slow turning it didn’t damage the blade but $85 cartridge replacement. I now have some neodymium magnets on the fence that I drop the rulers on so they can’t get knocked around! 
 

 

Yes, we've talked about these before. An amazing device with an interesting history. They could be standard equipment at a standard price, if it wasn't for the recklessness and stupidity of the major tool companies. I'm glad you have one. 

 

 

8 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

but doing everything by hand for sawing is perfectly fine! The more you do the better you get too! It is very zen like and why I think my friend is so into it. He was a catholic munk for a few years and loved it before he threw his back out and could no longer function within monkdom and think this gives him some of peace and zen his monk stuff did he loved.

 

 

I agree. I was amazed what can be done with a miter box. For commercial work speed is important. But for my purposes I can't see myself ever being in such a hurry that I couldn't take the time to make cuts with a hand saw and miter box. It really is quite a pleasant activity. 

[gavino200]

9 hours ago, inobu said:

The curves is made by the fascia.

 

 

I'm curious about one thing. If you wanted this fascia to go all the way to the floor, would you make one or two similar curves mounted onto the framework? And then apply a larger sheet of fascia to the curved framework. 

 

It's a bit weird, but I really don't like seeing all that messy bare wood framework, and I don't like the cloth skirting. I'd prefer to see either, clean furniture-like legs, furniture, or clean fascia to the floor. Probably a combination of all three. 

Edited May 9, 2020 by gavino200

[gavino200]

By the way, since I'm having a go at doing this myself, it's going to be a learn-as-I-go experience. My timeframe is going to be no less than a year. During that time I'll have the a temporary layout to run trains on and a mini layout to use for working on modelling. I'm going to make the modelling as modular as possible so that "scenes" can be transferred over to the new layout as it grows. 

 

The module segment that I start with will be simple and quite short so that it can be incorporated into the new layout at multiple points. The new layout remains undesigned. But I won't continue passed the first module until I have drawings of the provisional layout plan. Perhaps I'll be able to use CAD as I'm learning it for a different project I'm working on. 

 

Thanks everyone for your ideas and input. ☺️