Gavino200s new layout

[gavino200]

14 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 
At the simplest these are just 4 pieces of 2x4 (could even be 1x4) Two the height of the layout and two cross pieces the width you want the support minus 3” for the front and back legs. You just screw the cross pieces at the top and bottom of the leg/uprights to make a rectangular frame. Then just a couple of anchors into the wall with molly bolts to hold it in place vertically, weight does the rest. Super simple and strong. the uprights then make good places to attach cover facials. I agree I’m not a curtain fan either. We use straight hang cloth with velcro on the club layout abs it’s not back as it’s pretty flat and straight. I hate the pleated curtains that n trak uses at times.
 

Other would be legs bolting to the module frames like the ones the company inobu referenced

 

https://www.sieversbenchwork.com/specifications.html

 

Thanks I get the idea. Two legs on the front corners. Stuck to the wall on the back. 

 

14 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

the issue with using the furniture to balance your modules on is you will probably need extra legs (ie book shelf in front and legs in the back) and risers for shorter furniture to stabilize and attach. This can get fiddly to put together depending on combo of furniture and also the furniture then gets in the way of working on things under layout later. Also makes it just a real pain to rearrange if you need to. Hodge podge of furniture and bookcases May end up a very distracting look below the layout. 

 

I agree. It may be too much to do furniture for the whole room. But I do want storage and a place to put all those Kato book cases, so I may do a combination of both. 

 

14 hours ago, cteno4 said:

 

if the woodworking is giving you pause (modules will be more work than the rectangle legs) again I would look for a local woodworker/cabinet maker. Modules are super simple to cut out and you could assemble. Cabinet maker could cut the module frames out of good ply (hey usually get great prices on cabinet grade ply and Baltic birch plys) so things are super square. one by plank dimensional lumber is getting pricy even for the cheap crap which usually is warped to hell (even in the premium boards I have to look at 4 to find a nice one). Rest is just drill and screw and bolt you can do w.o sawing. Woodworker could cut a fancier version of the rectangle legs that again you easily screw together. Getting a working relationship with a woodworker like this may be great for you to do lots of projects that you dream up and not have to risk your phalanges around any nasty saws!

 

Actually it may be hard for you to imagine, but it's more the "just fixing it to the wall with a few bolts" that gives me pause than the woodwork. I've never fixed anything to a wall except hanging things and simple fixtures that come with brackets, screws, and instructions. 

 

But yes, the woodwork may be too much for me, or something I don't want to do. But I won't know unless I try my hand at making one module. It could even be that I like it. And it would be a useful skill. I just can't know without trying. 

 

If I do, decide to use someone else, I'm sure I can find a cabinet maker, or maybe use the Amish. 

 

 

[gavino200]

10 hours ago, inobu said:

Gavino,

 

You have to be careful and avoid the creative vortex. That's when your mind starts spinning out of control and you build up so many thoughts

that you have to do something just for the sake of starting. That will get you in trouble. You will jump down the first rabbit hole and never get out.

 

That's good advice. Thanks inobu. 

 

10 hours ago, inobu said:

 

Go to this site and pick out a track plan. I would suggest #14 it will fit in the right upper corner. You can expand from it in any direction.

https://www.katomodels.com/unitrackplan/index

 

#14

https://www.katomodels.com/unitrackplan/plan_N2_78

 

Build this in Anyrail and then go to https://www.sieversbenchwork.com/    Pull their pdf and create the bench work that will support that layout.

You can see the bench work and the cost as well.

 

Inobu

 

 

Track plan 14 was actually what I based my last layout on. I loved it, except the elevated track was always and annoyance. I've decided to eliminate elevation this time and vary the "ground level" instead. It's hard to make a good looking compact layout without elevation. That's why a large loop is now more attractive. 

 

 

10 hours ago, inobu said:

 

This is a lift bridge for a Lionel O-scale. Its counter weighted, self locking and adjustable. Built from scratch.

 

That's a cool piece of craftwork. I'm not interested in a drawbridge. I'd just make a simple lift out segment. But I guess it would look something like that. Perhaps made from light material. Thanks for the example. 

 

 

10 hours ago, inobu said:

I myself would be a little apprehensive about the layout you are building. Based on the wife's expectation I would be cautious, and I have a lot of experience.........

 

 

Sage advice 🤣

[inobu]

The bridge image wasn't meant as an suggestion but an illustration of what it takes. What one envisions verses what takes are two different things.

In real life the tolerance in track height is about .5"  In N scale that would equate to your drop bridge naturally falling in place at  .00316" (3 thousand of an inch) every time.

The image I posted was the end results of what I thought to be a drop into place bridge. So I'm speaking from experience

 

Warning

Because the motor car is in the middle for most bullet trains the lead car is light. The imperfections on the track will be magnified. Derailments will be easier.

 

#14

The Rabbit Hole.

The frame work gets built then the layout is chosen. The layout does fit so modifications are made, challenging aspects are removed. What was envisioned

verses what's actually there. Enter rabbit hole.

 

You should build #14 as is. Get it wired and running that way you will see what it takes. If you are happy with it continue on. If you don't like it you can hire someone

but you at least go in with knowledge and experience. You will be able to tell them what you want. 

 

I think I've said enough......lol

 

Inobu

 

Edited May 2, 2020 by inobu

[Kiha66]

On 4/30/2020 at 8:14 AM, gavino200 said:

A removable bridge at the point in blue would work here. It could be set in enough to allow the inevitable unexpected door openings without any disaster. 

 

 

I really like this trackplan.  I think most plans suffer from being entirely town or yard, but this one allows a lot of open running with enough scenery to keep it interesting on the ends.  The bridge isnt even entirely necessary, but it should be doable.  If you use shelf brackets to mount the non town sections of the layout, it'll leave the space underneath entirely open.  You could put bookshelves under the town area for storage of trains. 

[gavino200]

2 hours ago, inobu said:

The bridge image wasn't meant as an suggestion but an illustration of what it takes. What one envisions verses what takes are two different things.

In real life the tolerance in track height is about .5"  In N scale that would equate to your drop bridge naturally falling in place at  .00316" (3 thousand of an inch) every time.

The image I posted was the end results of what I thought to be a drop into place bridge. So I'm speaking from experience

 

Warning

Because the motor car is in the middle for most bullet trains the lead car is light. The imperfections on the track will be magnified. Derailments will be easier.

 

Thanks. I need all the warnings I can get. It's always good to understand the difficulty of a task 

 

 

2 hours ago, inobu said:

 

#14

The Rabbit Hole.

The frame work gets built then the layout is chosen. The layout does fit so modifications are made, challenging aspects are removed. What was envisioned

verses what's actually there. Enter rabbit hole.

 

 

I agree. I'd like to have a track plan in Anyrail before starting construction. However making a 4 foot modular section isn't going to hurt. Even if I don't incorporate it into the layout I can make a T track type piece out of it. 

 

 

2 hours ago, inobu said:

 

You should build #14 as is. Get it wired and running that way you will see what it takes. If you are happy with it continue on. If you don't like it you can hire someone

but you at least go in with knowledge and experience. You will be able to tell them what you want. 

 

I've already done that. That was my last layout. #14 has an incline. I absolutely don't want any inclines. They're a huge pain in the ass, even though they look great. 

 

2 hours ago, inobu said:

 

I think I've said enough......lol

 

 

Never. We missed you here inobu. Your input is always appreciated. 

[gavino200]

48 minutes ago, Kiha66 said:

 

I really like this trackplan.  I think most plans suffer from being entirely town or yard, but this one allows a lot of open running with enough scenery to keep it interesting on the ends.  The bridge isnt even entirely necessary, but it should be doable.  If you use shelf brackets to mount the non town sections of the layout, it'll leave the space underneath entirely open.  You could put bookshelves under the town area for storage of trains. 

 

I agree. It should be doable. I've seen lots of clubs use that method at shows.  I think inobu is fully correct about potential problems. But it has significant track design advantages. 180 degree loops at the ends look particularly fake. And having two sets of tracks (coming and going) crossing each module decreases modeling potential and also has a fake look about it. 

 

Besides I kind of like the idea sitting in the middle and having the trains run completely around me. 

[Kiha66]

One option may be to build from the middle out, and use unitrak return loops as a temporary solution until you have it built.  That way you can get the layout running faster and just keep moving the loops back as you finish sections.   I believe brad on the forum uses this on his home USA prototype layout.
http://palisadecanyonrr.blogspot.com/2020/03/main-line-has-reopened-once-again.html

 

Brad also used shelf brackets to support the new section of his new branchline, which might add a cleaner look to the non city section of your layout.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-y_VYS3-AFBg/XZQbeoT4TOI/AAAAAAAAGBA/PRNUKVI5WuUSaTBe_oXR2rJRI0objxEZwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Palisade1.jpg

Edited May 2, 2020 by Kiha66

[cteno4]

That’s a good idea, ballon ends for loopback! 
 

shelf brackets work pretty well but at 24” wide it may get a bit much if pressure is put on the module edge. Big ass ones help! 
 

jeff

[gavino200]

1 hour ago, Kiha66 said:

One option may be to build from the middle out, and use unitrak return loops as a temporary solution until you have it built.  That way you can get the layout running faster and just keep moving the loops back as you finish sections.   I believe brad on the forum uses this on his home USA prototype layout.
http://palisadecanyonrr.blogspot.com/2020/03/main-line-has-reopened-once-again.html

 

Brad also used shelf brackets to support the new section of his new branchline, which might add a cleaner look to the non city section of your layout.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-y_VYS3-AFBg/XZQbeoT4TOI/AAAAAAAAGBA/PRNUKVI5WuUSaTBe_oXR2rJRI0objxEZwCLcBGAsYHQ/s1600/Palisade1.jpg

 

This is a brilliant idea. Thanks for the links. I can use the loop pieces from my previous layout adjusted to the height of the new layout. 

 

The actual track plan will be completely temporary as I build the layout framework for the new track design. 

 

[gavino200]

11 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

That’s a good idea, ballon ends for loopback! 
 

shelf brackets work pretty well but at 24” wide it may get a bit much if pressure is put on the module edge. Big ass ones help! 
 

jeff

 

I agree. Brackets fixed to the wall with a corresponding hook fixed to the back of the layout module might work. I saw some at the hardware a couple of weeks ago when I was looking for hooks to hang a mirror. 

[cteno4]

8 hours ago, gavino200 said:

Actually it may be hard for you to imagine, but it's more the "just fixing it to the wall with a few bolts" that gives me pause than the woodwork. I've never fixed anything to a wall except hanging things and simple fixtures that come with brackets, screws, and instructions. 

 

But yes, the woodwork may be too much for me, or something I don't want to do. But I won't know unless I try my hand at making one module. It could even be that I like it. And it would be a useful skill. I just can't know without trying. 

gavin,

 

i was not meaning to say the woodworking was past you at all it’s just that bolting a bracket to the wall is pretty easy once you learn the basics!

 

with all the things I’ve seen you do, bolting some brackets or legs to the wall it completely in your wheelhouse! It’s just a little bit of learning and a few tools. Youtube is a great start or finding a handy person in the area that can teach you. You’ll be doing it in no time!

 

same goes for the woodworking. It’s not any harder than the projects you’ve already done with your previous layouts and projects! It’s just a little learning and a lot of practice. Your only impediment to large amounts of woodworking is using power saws that you have an eversion to (that’s healthy,  they need a lot of respect). This is why I was suggesting a cabinet maker or the like that could do that bit for you. The rest of the assembly again is totally in your skill set already and again is just a bit of learning and a lot of practice just doing it.

 

I really think you should try and make a prototype module. Just the cutting part is your challenge. But you can always buy dimensional lumber and use a hand saw in a miter box carefully to get decent cuts. Ply can be cut at the lumber yard usually. I was just suggesting the cabinet maker or local wood worker as they may be able to cut out a bunch for you from better material that may be easier to work with and better final quality. They may also help in some of the fine scale design and help teach you some of the woodworking you need to go at it yourself. Hand cutting 1 by material can get old fast! One of the tricks with woodworking is to also find the things that get around the more tedious and fiddly bits where you can get frustrated and can make the whole thing not fun! Same goes for layouts!

 

cheers

 

jeff

[cteno4]

Only issue with shelf brackets is it would be best if they were placed at your stud locations as now all the weight is being transferred to the walls (new sheetrock after paneling is removed?). With the legs you can just use anchor bolts in the Sheetrock anywhere as the only thing they are doing is keeping the leg vertical and all the weight is going to the legs. 
 

solution would then be to just have tight bolting between modules so load is distributed well across modules. Since studs are usually every 16” a 48” module will always have 3 brackets under it.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

38 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

gavin,

 

i was not meaning to say the woodworking was past you at all it’s just that bolting a bracket to the wall is pretty easy once you learn the basics!

 

with all the things I’ve seen you do, bolting some brackets or legs to the wall it completely in your wheelhouse! It’s just a little bit of learning and a few tools. Youtube is a great start or finding a handy person in the area that can teach you. You’ll be doing it in no time!

 

I wasn't offended at all. I just wasn't even thinking about brackets. I was imagining bolting the modules directly to the wall. I had visions of huge hunks of drywall pulling away.

 

 

38 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

same goes for the woodworking. It’s not any harder than the projects you’ve already done with your previous layouts and projects! It’s just a little learning and a lot of practice. Your only impediment to large amounts of woodworking is using power saws that you have an eversion to (that’s healthy,  they need a lot of respect). This is why I was suggesting a cabinet maker or the like that could do that bit for you. The rest of the assembly again is totally in your skill set already and again is just a bit of learning and a lot of practice just doing it.

 

I understand. It may be that I'll do a combination. Do simple parts myself but get a cabinet maker do anything fancy. 

 

 

 

38 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

I really think you should try and make a prototype module. Just the cutting part is your challenge. But you can always buy dimensional lumber and use a hand saw in a miter box carefully to get decent cuts. Ply can be cut at the lumber yard usually. I was just suggesting the cabinet maker or local wood worker as they may be able to cut out a bunch for you from better material that may be easier to work with and better final quality. They may also help in some of the fine scale design and help teach you some of the woodworking you need to go at it yourself. Hand cutting 1 by material can get old fast! One of the tricks with woodworking is to also find the things that get around the more tedious and fiddly bits where you can get frustrated and can make the whole thing not fun! Same goes for layouts!

 

 

I will. I think it might actually be fun.

[gavino200]

36 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Only issue with shelf brackets is it would be best if they were placed at your stud locations as now all the weight is being transferred to the walls (new sheetrock after paneling is removed?). With the legs you can just use anchor bolts in the Sheetrock anywhere as the only thing they are doing is keeping the leg vertical and all the weight is going to the legs. 

 

I wasn't thinking of shelf brackets. I was thinking of hooks to hang the back of the module (like a painting) while having the front rest on legs or a furniture item. Though it's possible that I could make a four legged beast. I think you had advised me before that it was difficult to achieve stability. and have decent solid flush looking legs like on a lack table for example.

 

36 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

 

solution would then be to just have tight bolting between modules so load is distributed well across modules. Since studs are usually every 16” a 48” module will always have 3 brackets under it.

 

I agree. Some segments could just be bridges bolted on both sides with no other support. 

[cteno4]

Actually just thinking the cabinet maker cutting out the parts you need for modules, legs, etc with their power saws! This step can get you really nice parts that assemble well and look clean and true. Not much fancy stuff they would need to do other than chop stuff up with a good saw! You’ve said you don’t want to get into a table saw or chop saw world really. They may be able to teach you some tricks to fine scale design things and assembly and you do all the rest! 

 

cheers

 

jeff

[gavino200]

I had a long talk with the boy and my wife. She gets the track design and play advantages of the loop. She also realizes now that it doesn't involve buying twice the amount of track. (hidden assumption.  She's also fine with the bridge section. She had assumed it was going to block the door. It wouldn't. But it's going to be inset enough to not be such a shock when the door is opened. I'll put a chair in that corner so she hang out/come visit without ducking under the bridge. Or she could stand there with another mom while the kids go inside. Also I'm going to change the door so it opens outward to create a bit more usable space on the inside. 

 

She was also worried about needing to stage the house if we had to sell it. Since it's modular it could be shrunk down of dismantled completely with a day or two of work. She's fine with that. Also I may try do design it so it could conceivably be shrunk down to a smaller loop if she hates it once it's done.  

[cteno4]

 

4 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

I wasn't thinking of shelf brackets. I was thinking of hooks to hang the back of the module (like a painting) while having the front rest on legs or a furniture item. Though it's possible that I could make a four legged beast. I think you had advised me before that it was difficult to achieve stability. and have decent solid flush looking legs like on a lack table for example.

ahh that would be easy! Just put a piece of 1x2 along the wall at the module height you want and rest the back edge of the modules on that. you just screw it into the studs every 16” so all the load is on the studs.
 

Then just screw on some 6” pieces of 1x4 onto the 1x2 so it clamps the back edge of the module against the wall. Sort of a hook arrangement.

 

then legs in the front or inset a bit. Yep would be pretty easy.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

3 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Actually just thinking the cabinet maker cutting out the parts you need for modules, legs, etc with their power saws! This step can get you really nice parts that assemble well and look clean and true. Not much fancy stuff they would need to do other than chop stuff up with a good saw! You’ve said you don’t want to get into a table saw or chop saw world really. They may be able to teach you some tricks to fine scale design things and assembly and you do all the rest! 

 

cheers

 

jeff

 

Yes, that's absolutely true. I plan on finding someone who will make cuts for me when precision counts. I had a cabinet maker who did that for me in my last city. The trick was to use cabinet makers. Carpenters were completely uninterested. 

 

[cteno4]

Yeah cabinet makers do this stuff all the time and are totally setup to do it and also usually have a big supply of good ply at good prices. When I was young one of the local cabinet makers would sell me the really nice high ply Baltic birch which none of the sources for 75 miles carried and he gave it to me at cost plus 10%. They also are good at thinking design for best and cleanest assembly. The ones ive know have also been helpful types, always being willing to teach some. They also have holes in their schedules at times and super simple to slip in an hour or two project if you’re not in a rush.

 

sometimes you can find a good home woodworker that has a decent enough shop to do it cheaper, but then you have to go buy wood, etc... that’s what I end up being for the club...

 

agreed most carpenters are not into this sort of stuff.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

Just an idea. Doodling really.

 

[gavino200]

Or this?

 

[chadbag]

On 5/2/2020 at 7:39 PM, gavino200 said:

I had a long talk with the boy and my wife.

 

How did that work 🙂  ?

 

On 5/2/2020 at 7:39 PM, gavino200 said:

Also I'm going to change the door so it opens outward to create a bit more usable space on the inside. 

 

Another thing to look at is a simple barn door type sliding door (if it will fit).  That is what I am using for at least 2 of the entryways into the train room in the new house.  

[gavino200]

8 minutes ago, chadbag said:

 

How did that work 🙂  ?

 

Well. I described it in the following sentences. 

 

Quote

Another thing to look at is a simple barn door type sliding door (if it will fit).  That is what I am using for at least 2 of the entryways into the train room in the new house.  

 

I was a suburban child. I know nothing about barns. You don't mean the one above that you haul things up into with a pulley?

Edited May 6, 2020 by gavino200

[chadbag]

2 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

Well. I described it in the following sentences. 

 

It was a joke.  I mean, talking! to the wife.

 

2 minutes ago, gavino200 said:

 

I was a suburban child. I know nothing about barns. You don't mean the one above that haul things up into with a pully?

 

I did not know what it was until I started noticing them in new model homes (they have a "Parade of Homes" every year in the area for builders to show off and we go look since we are building -- to get inspired and cool ideas).   

 

Here are examples (not a HD ad -- just had lots of examples).   

 

https://www.homedepot.com/s/barn%20doors?NCNI-5

 

Costco had some nice sized and built white ones recently in our area for $250 each, for up to 34" wide door area.  I got two -- one for our laundry room and one for my office entrance to the train room.  (I['ll have to get a larger one for the other side to the train room coming in from the hall).

 

 

[gavino200]

1 minute ago, chadbag said:

 

It was a joke.  I mean, talking! to the wife.

 

🤣

 

1 minute ago, chadbag said:

 

 

I did not know what it was until I started noticing them in new model homes (they have a "Parade of Homes" every year in the area for builders to show off and we go look since we are building -- to get inspired and cool ideas).   

 

Here are examples (not a HD ad -- just had lots of examples).   

 

https://www.homedepot.com/s/barn%20doors?NCNI-5

 

Costco had some nice sized and built white ones recently in our area for $250 each, for up to 34" wide door area.  I got two -- one for our laundry room and one for my office entrance to the train room.  (I['ll have to get a larger one for the other side to the train room coming in from the hall).

 

 

 

Ah, yeah. That's an idea. I thought maybe you meant one of those two piece doors where you can open only the top part so the horse can stick his head out. Didn't see how that would help the train room. 😜