Gavino200s new layout

[chadbag]

On 3/20/2022 at 6:00 AM, Madsing said:

An alternative design for an elevated station that I would like to explore. Four tracks as close as possible to each others and the two platforms outside the outer tracks. Just to see the Shinkansen passing at full speed on the inner tracks!

 

 

I've seen real Shinkansen stations (smaller ones) that are like this.   Except the switches of course, are a lot further distanced from the platforms and out of sight.  But for a model this is the same thing.

 

[Madsing]

Yes. The Shinkansen Hamamatsu station on the Tokaido line is built like that. A very nice long curve! This is an N700 passing at high speed on one of the two centre tracks at this station.

 

 

[Kamome]

This channel created a nice through station and some gradual curves to get some nice passing shots.

 

 

[cteno4]

Gavin,

 

do you have the 50 layout book? It’s a very inspirational layout book for whole layouts and just parts as well. The presentation with the sketches really does something nice to help visualize elements in your head better than flat on track plans. Not cheap ($50 delivered), but well worth it. If you want I can mail mine up to you for a loan to see if you want to buy one or just suck enough ideas out of it (it’s been out on loan a few times now!)

 

https://www.amazon.co.jp/-/en/gp/product/4774183032/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

cheers

 

jeff

[gavino200]

Actually I do have it. I also have the 101 layouts from Model Railroad mag.

[gavino200]

18 hours ago, Kamome said:

This channel created a nice through station and some gradual curves to get some nice passing shots.

 

 

 

That's a really great scratch-built station front. I also like his (mostly) understated weathering.

 

But the surprise gem for me in this video is what seem to be very simply designed scratch built double viaduct curves. The Kato double viaduct is really limited. I've been planning to cut them to custom lengths (circumferences?), but I was thinking that I couldn't avoid using the single radius offered. I see now that scratchbuilding double viaduct of various different radii wouldn't be all that difficult.

[gavino200]

22 hours ago, Madsing said:

Yes. The Shinkansen Hamamatsu station on the Tokaido line is built like that. A very nice long curve! This is an N700 passing at high speed on one of the two centre tracks at this station.

 

 

 

It's mind blowing just how long Shinkansens really are!!! A curved station would look great, but that's way more than I could handle.

[Kamome]

This article was from a long time ago but it still on the Diotown website.

 

https://www.diotown.com/creative/2011/03/curve-track-base.html

 

The curves were actually used to promote the Kato E5 release on the Kato Youtube channel about 10 years ago.

 

 

[disturbman]

11 hours ago, gavino200 said:

A curved station would look great, but that's way more than I could handle.

A curved station would be hard to make, but you could think of adding a large, sweeping curve before the station, in the middle of the board. The trains would look awesome passing at speed before going through the two middle tracks of the station.
 

YouTube suggested me this video today, which I thought was appropriate even though the scale is off. You will hear a lot of annoying choo-choos - I still don't get why people find sound on models attractive.

Edited March 31, 2022 by disturbman

[gavino200]

17 hours ago, Kamome said:

This article was from a long time ago but it still on the Diotown website.

 

https://www.diotown.com/creative/2011/03/curve-track-base.html

 

The curves were actually used to promote the Kato E5 release on the Kato Youtube channel about 10 years ago.

 

 

 

Thank you so much for sharing the article. I remember this video well. The E5 was my first Japanese train - my gateway drug. I watched that video over and over. Though it's so obvious now, I never noticed that the viaduct was all custom. 

[gavino200]

10 hours ago, disturbman said:

A curved station would be hard to make, but you could think of adding a large, sweeping curve before the station, in the middle of the board. The trains would look awesome passing at speed before going through the two middle tracks of the station.
 

YouTube suggested me this video today, which I thought was appropriate even though the scale is off. You will hear a lot of annoying choo-choos - I still don't get why people find sound on models attractive.

 

Thanks V. I really like those curves. I need to get some of those flextrack radius setting irons! 

[gavino200]

A thing I've been thinking about recently is how I'm going to set the track. On a lot of layouts I see that they make separate wooden strips on which to lay the track. That's as opposed to laying sheets of pink foam and just placing the track on it. 

 

I wonder what the advantage of the wooden boards is? More sturdy? Better sound qualities? I think doing it that way would make it easier to model the landscape around it with a more natural variation. I'd be shaping the landscape off-layout, and then putting it in place. If I simply place giant sheets of pink foam, I'd either have to accept "flatland", or I'd have to shape it on-layout which would be difficult and messy. 

 

I think I'll watch more Newhall station to see why they do it that way. The books from Model railroader mag also do it that way, but they don't give an explaination as to why. 

[katoftw]

Are you asking why a baseboard is made of wood/ply/mdf?

[gavino200]

15 minutes ago, katoftw said:

Are you asking why a baseboard is made of wood/ply/mdf?

 

No. Rather why make raised wooden roadbed instead of using foam. All of this over the baseboard. I'll add some pictures tomorrow to show you what I'm talking about.

[Cat]

1 hour ago, gavino200 said:

 

No. Rather why make raised wooden roadbed instead of using foam. All of this over the baseboard. I'll add some pictures tomorrow to show you what I'm talking about.

Track straight on insulation foam can be quite noisy.  Cork or soft foam is the typical sound-dampening roadbed.  Maybe wood for screwing the track down?

[gavino200]

I just read the Model Railroader Essential Series Benchwork Edition, so I can be a bit more conventional about my terms now. What I'm talking about is "subroadbed". I already have a thick plywood baseboard. 

 

My basic plan is to have a layout that has two layers. One high, one low. The layout will change elevation while the tracks stay level. The reason for this is that I found that the model train performance issues on inclines, bugged me on my previous layout. (It's just a personal preference). 

 

So I was planning originally to lay two sheets of 2 inch pink foam on the West side and no  pink foam on the East side. (Or alternately two 2 inch plus one 1 inch on west and only a single 1 inch sheet on the east. Two different heights of broad flat pink foam. 

 

However -

 

1. I'd like to be able to vary the height of the terrain

2. I'd like to do as much terrain and modelling work off-layout. Shaping the foam in place on the layout would be difficult. 

 

So, it occurred to me to first only place elevated supports where the tracks are. Then add the rest of the moddeling/terrain later. So I'm talking about "subroadbed". People do this with plywood or with foamboard. Many people don't even bother with a baseboard. The just add risers to the benchwork frame and then attach subroadbed to the risers. This uses less wood, and in many ways is more versitile.

 

I already have a baseboard, so I think adding just enough foam to support track and ballast. Sort of like this. I may add a thin layer of plaster over the foam as recommended by woodland scenics. 

 

If I were to use wood risers/subroadbed, I'd have to make little pedestals for the risers to attach them to my baseboard. 

 

Foam would be easier. I wonder if there's a big difference in sound as @cat suggests. That would be a deal breaker regardless of convenience. 

 

Over the foam or wood subroadbed, I'll place roadbed, either cork or foam, but probably foam. Then Peco track with light ballasting. 

[gavino200]

On 3/31/2022 at 9:33 PM, katoftw said:

Are you asking why a baseboard is made of wood/ply/mdf?

 

This picture shows what I was talking about. Plywood subroadbed placed on risers. Now that I've considered turnout servos, this is probably the best option. I'll use foam to fill in the non-track scenary on either side of this.

 

@cteno4, how do you think this guy is fixing his risers to the baseboard? Yellow carpenter's glue? Screw placed from below? Unfixed? I'm looking through his videos to see if he talks about it, but no luck so far.

 

 

Photo source is this video

 

 

Edited April 3, 2022 by gavino200

[Cat]

2 hours ago, gavino200 said:

 

This picture shows what I was talking about. Plywood subroadbed placed on risers. Now that I've considered turnout servos, this is probably the best option. I'll use foam to fill in the non-track scenary on either side of this.

 

@cteno4, how do you think this guy is fixing his risers to the baseboard? Yellow carpenter's glue? Screw placed from below? Unfixed? I'm looking through his videos to see if he talks about it, but no luck so far.

 

 

Photo source is this video

 

 

That certainly allow for screwing the track down.  It's going to act like a nice sound board though, I would put cork or soft foam under Peco/Atlas track for a sound-dampening roadbed.

[cteno4]

Securing from below would be the strongest solution, but tedious. You can drill the hole for the screw where it needs to go but then have to get under layout to screw it in place while someone else holds the block and screwing into end grain with a larger threaded screw could crack it without a pilot hole in the block that would be tedious to place perfectly.

 

gluing would work fine as you won’t be dancing on it! If you need to change something a tap with a hammer will pop the block off the baseboard. You can attach the upper level plywood to the blocks with a small flathead screw and countersink it so the head is flush.

 

you can also drive screws in at a 45 at the base of block into the baseboard. Just drill a pilot hole at a 45 at the base of the block and use a good self tapping deck screw to bite into the baseboard.

 

think gluing would be the simplest to the baseboard and screw the upper level to the blocks and easiest to modify later if needed.

 

jeff

[cteno4]

Yes some cork, soft foam or homosote roadbed helps a lot. Also using matte medium instead of white glue helps quiet the roadbed as once it’s all hardened together it can get noisier with hard white glue bonded ballast. About a decade ago a chap did a bunch of sound tests in like 6’ strips and one was flex track on cork roadbed on ply before ballasting and after matte medium and white glue ballasting. White glue was noticeably louder. Matte medium is sort of soft when diluted so acts like another sound absorber rather than a large, hard resonance surface.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

13 minutes ago, Cat said:

That certainly allow for screwing the track down.  It's going to act like a nice sound board though, I would put cork or soft foam under Peco/Atlas track for a sound-dampening roadbed.

 

Thanks. Yes. I'll use either cork or foam. Either the woodland scenics foam or the same thing in bulk from a primary source if I can find it.

 

11 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Securing from below would be the strongest solution, but tedious. You can drill the hole for the screw where it needs to go but then have to get under layout to screw it in place while someone else holds the block and screwing into end grain with a larger threaded screw could crack it without a pilot hole in the block that would be tedious to place perfectly.

 

gluing would work fine as you won’t be dancing on it! If you need to change something a tap with a hammer will pop the block off the baseboard. You can attach the upper level plywood to the blocks with a small flathead screw and countersink it so the head is flush.

 

you can also drive screws in at a 45 at the base of block into the baseboard. Just drill a pilot hole at a 45 at the base of the block and use a good self tapping deck screw to bite into the baseboard.

 

think gluing would be the simplest to the baseboard and screw the upper level to the blocks and easiest to modify later if needed.

 

jeff

 

Thanks. I'll try glue and see how strong it is. I'll add a 45 degree screw if it's not firm

 

5 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Yes some cork, soft foam or homosote roadbed helps a lot. Also using matte medium instead of white glue helps quiet the roadbed as once it’s all hardened together it can get noisier with hard white glue bonded ballast. About a decade ago a chap did a bunch of sound tests in like 6’ strips and one was flex track on cork roadbed on ply before ballasting and after matte medium and white glue ballasting. White glue was noticeably louder. Matte medium is sort of soft when diluted so acts like another sound absorber rather than a large, hard resonance surface.

 

jeff

 

I've read that about the white glue. It dries rock hard. I'll look into matt medium. I've also heard there's a woodland scenics or Peco product for fixing ballast.

[cteno4]

decent PVA wood glue will hold more than enough. You could probably walk on it and not break it loose. A jig might! Putting a chunk of 2x4 every 6” under some 3/16” PLY will be more than ample for your elevated track
 

They are all basically matte medium with a new label and price! Matte mod podge is cheap and available. Stuff is just a nice, stably formulated matte medium. Artist acrylic mediums are just nicer quality and stabilized for archival purposes, but not needed for ballast and scenery purposes.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

I had to look up what Matte Medium was. I'm guessing there are controversies on regarding exactly how dilute to make it? 

 

Here's a site that shows how to make it. Seems like it uses beeswax, Copal varnish and turpentine. Copal varnish seems like it's powdered african gum copal mixed with powderd glass dissolved in turpentine. 

 

The only part of this I don't like the sound of is the turpentine, as it's seriously bad smelling stuff. 

[pbunter]

I searched on Matte Medium too and found this from Scenic Express:

 

https://www.sceneryexpress.com/PREPARED-MATTE-MEDIUM-16-oz/productinfo/EX0010/ 

 

It seems a bit more in line with our hobby than the Matte Medium for painting. Or are they really just the same thing?

 

- - - Paul

[cteno4]

Gavin that’s old school artist’s matte medium. The stuff for scenery and most acrylic art and craft stuff these days is basically acrylic paint base with no pigments or talc in it. It’s water based and no organic solvents. You can get it in several finishes from matte, to satin, to gloss, to high gloss. 
 

some who want to get it as cheaply as possible source interior paint acrylic medium, but it usually has some talc in it (something to do with blending pigments with the acrylic medium) that can leave sort of a foggy finish on ballast. I remember seeing somewhere years ago someone had a technique to filter out the talc.

 

mod podge is just very tired and true, available just about everywhere and inexpensive, dependable and works well. I tend to stay away from products by train companies that are basically repackaged standard materials given a new name, higher price, and unsure how good their product sources are. Mod podge is an old brand that produces their own stuff so they keep quality and consistency up as it’s their main brand/product. It’s been around a very long time and always worked super well for me. I had one bottle of the woodland scenics stuff not work well once, but to be fair I had inherited the bottle from a friend so may have been old. But never an issue with mod podge medium and keeps pretty well and easy to source.

 

Get a small bottle and experiment with it. On scenery materials it has a little give so if you bang it you don’t get a nasty scrape and you can sort of push it back down into place and gone, white glue and usually a ding makes a gash in the harder finish of the PVA glue. Also with PVA I some times notice a bit of a glossy look (it makes good water and puddles) on scenery materials where they are usually dull/matte in prototype. Mostly I like matte medium on ballast as it dampens noise and you can take a dental pick and pull bits off very easily when needed, especially around points and edges of rail, or if you need to dig an area out to do other scenery. PVA ballast you need a hammer and chisel to get it out or resoaking with water to loose it up which you don’t want to do around points usually. Diluted PVA definitely works as a scenery cement, it just has issues matte mod podge doesn’t, only better thing is you can find very cheap PVA glue (but then I would question it’s quality). In the scheme of things it’s not a big expense on the layout.

 

cheers

 

jeff