Gavino200s new layout

[gavino200]

It turns out I have a piece of plywood that's the perfect size to make a bridging section to take the table out to full length. It'll have no legs, but instead will bolt on to the tables on either side.

 

I'm toying with the idea of making two curved corner pieces. The concept is below. These aren't final dimensions (or shape). The small one on the left could simply bolt on. Plywood top, wood frame and curved veneer front.

 

The larger one on the right would be similar except that it would need at least one leg for support. I like the idea of a curved finish to the front fascia, but also it would allow track planning versatility.

 

Likely I'd start by making the small one and see how I like it. The layout building will go from left to right (west to east) anyway, so I'll have a long time to mull the idea over.

 

 

 

[Madsing]

Good idea. This would make longer curves possible.

[gavino200]

I added the final piece - a bridge segment to bring the table out to full length. Tomorrow I think I'll bolt all the tables together so I can set up a temporary DC loop.

 

I've had a few thoughts. I'm going to look at the whole design fresh. My son is interested again but mainly it's designing it on SCARM that interests him now as he's big into computers. That'll help me a lot. He's quite creative and it'll be fun to play trains together again.

 

I'm going to forget about fitting the "visible tunnel" into this layout. I'll probably make a new visible tunnel but I'll construct it around the track plan that's right for the layout.

 

 

I've decided for sure to go ahead with adding pieces to the front. At very least at the corners to allow for larger radius turns. Likely I'll also widen the end pieces.

So the next thing will be to work out how to do this.

 

1. I'm fairly sure that I can't just bolt pieces on. I'm 99% sure that they would sag and warp if they had any considerable weight.

2. I could probably do this with a combination of bolt on and extra legs. Probably just one or two legs per section.

3. I might also be able to build in some cantilever into the existing framework to support a ledge. 

4. I need to figure out how to make a curved front. likely I'll place pegs along the edge of a curved top piece and tack some thin veneer to the front.

 

Probably #2 will be the solution. First thing will be to decide on a design. It's a bit of a daunting task, but I'll be more fun with the boy.

 

 

Edited December 8, 2021 by gavino200

[kami_illy]

10 hours ago, gavino200 said:

. I'm fairly sure that I can't just bolt pieces on. I'm 99% sure that they would sag and warp if they had any considerable weight.

 

I think with that massive support structure you've built, it won't warp much. Unless you plan to place mountains made with clay and plaster on that rounded sections. The smaller one on the left could be fine just being bolted on. The right hand one could maybe use one leg in the middle. 

10 hours ago, gavino200 said:

4. I need to figure out how to make a curved front. likely I'll place pegs along the edge of a curved top piece and tack some thin veneer to the front.

 

To make things easier you could do the left one as a simple triangle. You'll have a nice front, stiff supporting structure, and so on... There wouldn't be any warping on that, and very little to no sag.

On the left side I'd go with a polygonal edge. Just divide the rounded edge in maybe 3 or 4 straight pieces. We tend to start things complicated and the simplify during the process of building. But then the base is "just" a hidden structure. Go simpler here and you'll have more energy for the actual layout on top. Just my 2 cents... 

 

Anyways, kudos for the craftsmanship. Looks super nice and professional (just saw the other thread of yours for building the modules). 

[cteno4]

Gavin,

 

no problem adding those corner sections by just boltong onto existing modules. If you do then curved just cut a strip of like 3/16” plywood and glue and a nail it onto your curved edge and then the ends to the regular 1x4 back plates. Didn’t you find someone that would cut some wood for you? Easy to do on a table saw. This will give plenty of support for no warping. If you wanted you could do a cross piece or two across the short dimension from the back plate to the front ply. The thin ply on the front will stiffen it up very well and the L in the module is a super supported area along the backplates of your curve sections.
 

you could use luan ply (some big box still have it, looks like mahogany, finishes well and is a hard wood, but newer stuff some carry and call luan is just sand ply with some sort of very cheap, light colored fir) if you can find it as it’s nice looking and even attach strips of it over your existing module faces to cover the ply/1x4 and bolt holes and give a clean, pretty edge. You can attach the straight edges with just a few finish nails or air nailer brads so easily removed if you need to unbolt the legs later, no need to glue those on. 
 

You can sometimes find nice hardwood plys in 1/8” or 3/16”, but may need to come from a speciality ply supplier. Might work with regular 1/4” birch ply from big box stores, it’s pretty fl8msy stuff these days and may take the bend as the veneers on the outside are paper thin and inner cores the grain will be going vertical and thus easy to bend along the curve.

 

cheers

 

jeff

[gavino200]

Thanks guys for the advice. I'll have to think through this for a while to fully understand it.

 

I bolted the tables together today, and set up a basic loop to christen the layout. It's nice to see some trains running again. The layout is plenty large. It takes quite a long time for a computer train or even a shinkansen at what I think is roughly scale speed to complete the circuit.

 

I'll probably have to shorten this circuit so I can rebuild my small automation practice/learning layout. My next step will be going back to track planning and considering the logistics of the extra woodwork.

 

 

 

[maihama eki]

No problem running full-length Shinkansens!

[gavino200]

I'm going to have to change my station a bit. After running trains for a while, I realize that the section in red is a real derailment hot zone.

 

 

 

Instead I'll keep the two far sidings separate within the station. I'll use a Kato #6 unless I just do the whole thing with Peco track. I just don't have an extra right #6 right now. The seem to be less troublesome than #4s in my experience. The Station will now be essentially symetric.

 

 

According to the current design the two far platform tracks both just connect the storage yard with the main layout. The reason for having two is to have a staging area so trains can pass.

 

I'm thinking of something like the for how they'll connect. The near side connects to the outside/elevated loop, while the inside connects to the inside/ground level loop. This will actually work better than what I had planned and I hope will be more train wheel friendly.

 

 

A rough mock-up of the connections on the left/west side of the station.

 

 

There's plenty of room for a yard over there. I have more freedom now that I've jettisoned the old "visible tunnel". I'm still deciding on whether or not to do any more table work. Now that I've got some track down, I'm thinking it's plenty big. It's going to take me the rest of my life to model it. 🤣

 

 

 

 

Edited December 26, 2021 by gavino200

[gavino200]

The time has come to actually design and build this thing. I'm learning to use SCARM. Hopefully I can make some important parts as set-pieces and loosely connect them. SCARM doesn't allow custom pieces.

 

Forgive the horrible drawing below.

 

I think I'll stick with the two-level concept. Main line/shinkansen line that goes all the way around. Commuter and trams on the right side. There'll be one long connection with a very low grade incline connecting them. The main line will be ground level on the left and elevated on the right.

 

I've always wanted a subway station. But I couldn't think of a good way to loop the subway back around. My wife suggested making the subway station a terminal station which is perhaps just the solution I need. I think I'll go with it.

 

I'm adding triangular pieces to the inside corners. And I'm moving the station to the west end. I don't like the symmetry of having it in the center. And the station will be off from the mainline so all six platforms will be for stopping. I'm also, going to just have an open yard next to it, rather than a hidden yard. I guess the west end will be the low rent part of town.

 

I'll add a Freight yard just to the east of the station. That will also be be a way to cross the main loop to reverse a train.

 

The loop in the east is going to be commuter/light rail/trams. The "city" will be over there, and maybe a bit of coast too. This area is less than half baked. I want to design it to allow for some different possible routes and perhaps to have a few commuter trains running automatically around the area.

 

I'm going to try to get this basic concept into SCARM. I'm also going to try to keep modifying it  to add complexity and more automation possibilities.

 

 

The salmon clor is the main double line, with station, main yard and freight yard. It's ground level on the left and elevated on the right. (the ground level on the left 2/3 of the layout will be higher than the right.

 

Green is a commuter train network. It's only partly designed. At the front of the layout there's a terminal station that will be underground (subway) and open to view. The horizontal dotted line half red/half green is a line that connects the two networks. That will be a long slight grade to connect the two levels.

 

I may put a mountain at the top left and a broken hill at the back where the main line disappears and reappears. My son wants to put some kind of narrow gauge mining train on the mountain. I'm not sure I like that but happily do it for the boy. 🙂

 

 

 

[cteno4]

Looks fun. I assume you will be using computer controlled blocks to deal with all the phase differences for all the permutations of wyes and reversing loops? Looks like it could be fun juggle.

 

jeff

[gavino200]

31 minutes ago, cteno4 said:

Looks fun. I assume you will be using computer controlled blocks to deal with all the phase differences for all the permutations of wyes and reversing loops? Looks like it could be fun juggle.

 

jeff

 

No clue really. The green stuff is mostly a place holder for "stuff goes here - try to make it interesting". Today's idea was to make the underground station a terminal station. That way I avoid trying to turn the loop in almost no space. Not to mention how much of a derailment hassle area that would  be.

Edited March 7, 2022 by gavino200

[Madsing]

Then maybe don't make any loop at all (with the green line). It will be automated, so the trains will automatically commute between two (or more) end stations. I am happy my tram layout doesn't have any loop.

[chadbag]

At least while you are working and planning and stuff I'd leave the overall large loop on the table until it needs to be removed.  That way you can run stuff and just watch etc.  Even if working on detailed parts, as long as they don't conflict...

 

 

[gavino200]

9 hours ago, Madsing said:

Then maybe don't make any loop at all (with the green line). It will be automated, so the trains will automatically commute between two (or more) end stations. I am happy my tram layout doesn't have any loop.

 

Yes!! That's a great idea. It would look much better. Also trams and light rail are a part of the layout that I'd rather have running in the background than actively drive myself.

 

I briefly considered making the whole layout terminal to terminal as I really don't like the look of loops. But I'm going to keep at least the large loop as it's fun to drive trains manually from time to time. I asked my son about that and he's in agreement. He's quite fascinated and impressed by the automation now that it works. He thinks it's cool. But he also like driving trains and just goofing around. So the big loop stays.

 

I think I'll be able to squeeze in some more activity and interesting lines though, if they're terminal lines.

[gavino200]

5 hours ago, chadbag said:

At least while you are working and planning and stuff I'd leave the overall large loop on the table until it needs to be removed.  That way you can run stuff and just watch etc.  Even if working on detailed parts, as long as they don't conflict...

 

 

 

Thanks for making me think about this Chad. Here's what I'm thinking.

 

The temporary loop is DC and Is just placed on the board with a few feeders. There are three DC controllers in total. The points are all manual.

 

The new "permanent" track is going to be DCC and automated with automated turnouts and hopefully signals. I want this track to be as close to perfectly laid as possible so as to essentially eliminate track-caused derailments, minimize voltage drop, and minimize noise using soldered joints and track underlay. I've never done any of this before so there'll be a learning curve.

 

So....I'm going to keep the current DC loop mostly intact for play. I'll take down the "Western" third of the DC loop, and start building my DCC loop in that West end of the layout. Then I'll progress from west to east increasing the DCC loop and decreasing the DC loop. Evenually I'll just take down the DC loop. I may sneak a DC line onto the final layout for testing new locos. But we'll see.

[gavino200]

So, my SCARM fu is very low, but I can tell already that my station looks really oversized for the layout. At first I wanted the station to be as big as possible. But I've learned that smaller trains look better (for me) so I'll be running trains that are about 7 or 8 cars long. I really don't need a station much longer than that. So likely I'll decrease the length of my station. I think the station will also look better.

 

Second, I need to really think and imagine how my "two layered" concept will play out. It's original purpose was to allow elevation change without having a gradient. I really didn't like how elevation affected the model trains before. But now I have enough length to create a very very gentle gradient, so this may not be an issue. The disadvantage of the two-layer concept is that it works for the two main loops but otherwise it really divides the layout in two. It makes it quite difficult to create terminal lines that span the length of the layout.

[gavino200]

I think I'll add a loco servicing area to the layout by totally stealing this idea.

 

 

[brill27mcb]

That's called "adopting best practices."

 

Rich K.

[gavino200]

I did a fair bit of imagining and made some decisions.

 

1. Yes I will downsize the station to the 7 car length that's gonna be my standard. The same for the yard and the freight depot. I'm pretty sure this will actually give a sense of largeness rather than smallness to the layout.

 

2. I'm going to commit to the High side/ low side concept. If it works, that's great. If not I'll still love my toy train layout.

 

3. Below is the latest iteration - Forgive the ugly drawing. My ideas are going faster than my ability to learn track software.

 

Orange is the main outside double track. With connected station and yard on the West. Freight yard also comes off this line in the center. This line is ground level in the West and Elevated in the East.

 

Green is a simple commuter train loop with an underground terminal that can be bypassed for manual running. Probably double track.

 

Purple will be a network of trams. This is an urban area and they'll mostly run on streets. They'll be fully automated.

 

The dotted green line is a incline track that connects the orange line to the green line. It goes under the freight depot.

 

There's also a mountain or two. Likely there'll be a fishing port somewhere in the East.

 

 

 

 

 

[Martijn Meerts]

Kinda hard to get a good idea just from going by the sketch, but looks like there's plenty of space for the trains at least 🙂

 

Are you also going to add some hidden yard? Since you're going with computer control, you can automate that and make the layout seem bigger than it is due to more variety in the trains you're running. You should be able to fit a bunch of tracks inside a mountain it looks like.

 

[gavino200]

15 hours ago, Martijn Meerts said:

Kinda hard to get a good idea just from going by the sketch, but looks like there's plenty of space for the trains at least 🙂

 

Agree, I'll try to get a computer drawing or at least a better sketch soon. I hope it didn't hurt your eyes too much looking at my ulgy scrawls. 😨

 

 

15 hours ago, Martijn Meerts said:

Are you also going to add some hidden yard? Since you're going with computer control, you can automate that and make the layout seem bigger than it is due to more variety in the trains you're running. You should be able to fit a bunch of tracks inside a mountain it looks like.

 

 

Yess! Great idea. I've been thinking about this all day. I love it. And the boy gives it his approval too. I thought before about hiding a yard behind a mountain, but I gave up the idea because it takes up a ton of space doing it that way. And also because yards look a bit cool, so I'll probably include a visible one. But I didn't think of hiding a yard IN the mountain. That's awesome.

 

I've been thinking a bit of how I'd do it. I'd want the mountain to be open at the back in a clean way. Like a cut out with smooth painted walls. That'll be a project in itself!

[Martijn Meerts]

A hidden yard is a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand it's a bit annoying having a yard that can hold a number of trains, and then not have them visible. On the other hand, if you like watching trains run (which I assume you do if you want to automate (a large part of) the layout), it's really quite nice seeing trains go into a mountain, or some other way of hiding them, and then only see them on the layout again after a while. 

[gavino200]

I've also been thinking about how I'd make my "levels". Before, I was thinking of just layout layers of foam thicker on the West than in the East. Like this below.

 

But I'm thinking it would be better to just raise the tracks up on foam to the right height. Sort of like those woodland scenics inclines, but just cut out of pink foam myself. Then I'll fill in the non-track area bit by bit later. That allow a couple of things. I could have the tracks on a slight embankment relative to the area around them. Also I could make subtle elevation changes throughout the board.

 

Also, while I'll stick with the main "2 levels" concept, I may add height alterations on both levels and I may look for a way to sneak in a third level. The level change doesn't have to be "all-or-nothing" in terms of the height needed for one track to cross over or under another. That way I can have height alterations while still avoiding having a major effect on train speed or performance.

 

 

Edit: I just noticed a clever use of a "half over - half under" concepot in @Wolf's Berlin club thread, to make two lines cross without giving either line a "full" incline.

 

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by gavino200

[gavino200]

I cleared off the West side. This weekend I'm going to add a triangular piece for the inside corner. I'll use some foamboard to approximate the shape and make sure I like it first. I don't know if I'll need to support it with a leg, so I had one cut just in case. Actually cutting the plywood for the top will be my biggest issue. Either, I'll cut it with a hand saw, or I'll try to get someone else to cut it for me. @cteno4is that something that can be cut with a jigsaw?

 

I also, downsized the station to fit a 7 car train. I took the length of two platforms off it. I could probably take another and still fit 7 cars but some wiggle room would be nice. It definitely looks better, at a shorter length.

 

I'll also remake the DC fun loop in the East. Other than that I'll be working on the overall design on RailModeller.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gavino200]

This is the plywood that I have. I think I'll cut it corner to corner and support it with one leg. My main question now is how to cut this. I have a black'n'decker jigsaw that is still in the box never used. This might be it's purpose.